So what exactly do THF/ITHF/GTHF do in U5?

[grodon9999]

Building a fighter who's a Kensai now but will switch to SD at higher levels to do raid tanking. My plan, which may or may not work is to have him have his feats setup so he can switch between Kensai and SD simply by resetting enhancements, hopefully it'll work . . . Got him up to level 9 so far and he's been a lot of fun, it's nice to have a character who i can shut off my brain while playing and just kill.

So what to THF/ITHF/GTHF actually do? I know it improves glancing blow-damage and I've "heard" that GTHF is useless now as there are no glancing blows while moving.

Can somebody pontificate on this?

[Tobril]

THF used to apply glancing blows to enemies in the arc of your swing while moving. Now it just applies the glancing blows when you stand still.

This means every swing you got a kind of pseudo-cleave, allowing you to be attacking a ton of enemies while moving backwards/sideways/etc to avoid getting hit on your -19 AC barbarian. Special attacks like vorpal/smiting sometimes go off on the glancing blows, adding a little extra punch when you’re using those types of weapons.

Since the change to not allow glancing blows when moving, the overall DPS of the moving THF character is greatly diminished. This presumes that the THF still moves about to take advantage of the weapon reach and to avoid getting hit. Standing still will allow the glancing blows, although at the cost of taking massive damage previously mitigated by movement.

[MrWizard]

the build in my sig, cannonfodder, is set up that way...for the most part.


but that build was made to switch back and forth between the two...and as presented can do tier 1 and 2 with no problems.

The only needed feat to get tier 3 is superior weapon focus, the rest is all there including stats and such.

not taking imp crit piercing can get that for you ( i just took it for the banishing rapiers I had).

Power attack is not included, but not taking the past life fighter feat (or maybe dodge) instead would add it.

[dkyle]

Special attacks like vorpal/smiting sometimes go off on the glancing blows.

Vorpal, yes, smiting, I don't think so, since you can't crit on glancing blows.

[Zachski]

Okay, I don't get something.

THF users are complaining that THF only affects them when they stand still now, but...

Isn't it the same thing for TWF users? I mean, even before Update 5 those extra attacks in the chain don't go off when you're running around, right? Why do THF users take "massive damage" from not being able to move and have glancing blows, but TWF users have been dealing with that since before this?

[grodon9999]

the build in my sig, cannonfodder, is set up that way...for the most part.


but that build was made to switch back and forth between the two...and as presented can do tier 1 and 2 with no problems.

The only needed feat to get tier 3 is superior weapon focus, the rest is all there including stats and such.

not taking imp crit piercing can get that for you ( i just took it for the banishing rapiers I had).

Power attack is not included, but not taking the past life fighter feat (or maybe dodge) instead would add it.

This is what I got in mind for feats . . .

Feats:
1 Toughness
1 Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
2 Dodge
3 Bullheaded
4 Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
6 Power Attack
6 Skill Focus: Intimidate
8 Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
9 THF
10 ITHF
12 GTHF
12 Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
14 Combat Expertise
15 Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
16 Force of Personality
18 Shield Mastery
18 Improved Shield Mastery

. . . will this be viable as a "tank?" With these feats I can swap between Kensai and defender with just resetting Enhancements.

I'm concerned about having enough HP for the really hard stuff. I want to be tough enough and have enough Intim for Horoth on Hard. I'm don't want to gimp DPS too badly if I can avoid it.

[dkyle]

Isn't it the same thing for TWF users? I mean, even before Update 5 those extra attacks in the chain don't go off when you're running around, right? Why do THF users take "massive damage" from not being able to move and have glancing blows, but TWF users have been dealing with that since before this?

No. Prior to U5, people with GTWF got 2 attacks per swing animation, moving or not. I.e., GTWF always got twice the number off attacks a S&B would get. Now it's 80% offhand proc rate, moving or not.

I think the swing rate is somewhat lower when moving, but I'm not sure. Of course, the -4 attack penalty can sometimes be significant.

[Chai]

THF used to apply glancing blows to enemies in the arc of your swing while moving. Now it just applies the glancing blows when you stand still.

This means every swing you got a kind of pseudo-cleave, allowing you to be attacking a ton of enemies while moving backwards/sideways/etc to avoid getting hit on your -19 AC barbarian. Special attacks like vorpal/smiting sometimes go off on the glancing blows, adding a little extra punch when you’re using those types of weapons.

Since the change to not allow glancing blows when moving, the overall DPS of the moving THF character is greatly diminished. This presumes that the THF still moves about to take advantage of the weapon reach and to avoid getting hit. Standing still will allow the glancing blows, although at the cost of taking massive damage previously mitigated by movement.

This is one of he better explanations I have seen regarding the end result of the nerf to THF.

As a result I have had to alter my playstyle to nail myself to the ground in one on one fights to get more DPS, while still moving around alot when there are multiple mobs in the room in melee range.

[grodon9999]

Okay, I don't get something.

THF users are complaining that THF only affects them when they stand still now, but...

Isn't it the same thing for TWF users? I mean, even before Update 5 those extra attacks in the chain don't go off when you're running around, right? Why do THF users take "massive damage" from not being able to move and have glancing blows, but TWF users have been dealing with that since before this?

TWF gets the most DPS by standing still and going through the attack animations. It has always been that way. it was especially so with tempest IIIs.

yes, if your AC doesn't stand up you have to stand their and take a hit.

[Yaga_Nub]

....
Since the change to not allow glancing blows when moving, the overall DPS of the moving THF character is greatly diminished....

Negative ghost rider. The overall DPS of a THF character is diminished but not GREATLY diminished.

[Tobril]

Vorpal, yes, smiting, I don't think so, since you can't crit on glancing blows.

I know I've seen vorpals go off on glancing blows and I think I've seen the same for smiting.

Until I can prove smiting for glancing blows I will retract the smiting portion of my earlier statement.

[Tobril]

Negative ghost rider. The overall DPS of a THF character is diminished but not GREATLY diminished.

My THF WF barbarian will argue that the loss is substantial until his paint falls off.

Keep in mind that when in barbarian mode I consider a single point of extra damage lost significant.

[Consumer]

My THF WF barbarian will argue that the loss is substantial until his paint falls off.

Keep in mind that when in barbarian mode I consider a single point of extra damage lost significant.

Considering a THF Barb with epic SoS lost around 40% of its DPS with U5 that must be pretty significant.

[Tobril]

Okay, I don't get something.

THF users are complaining that THF only affects them when they stand still now, but...

Isn't it the same thing for TWF users? I mean, even before Update 5 those extra attacks in the chain don't go off when you're running around, right? Why do THF users take "massive damage" from not being able to move and have glancing blows, but TWF users have been dealing with that since before this?

The standard issue THF barbarian doesn't have enough armour class to stop a drunken kitten.

If they stop moving then they will take every hit that is thrown at them. When playing a quest that is close their level their HP will drop really quick if they don't keep moving.


As far as the DPS loss is concerned, try this:

Go into an area with a lot of monsters. Collect a whole bunch and stand still while swinging a two hander around. You should see a lot of little numbers on the nearby monsters that are not your direct target.

Now do the same as above except move around and swing in the general area of the group. Before the change you would see all those little numbers. Now you do not.

Taking more THF feats increases the damage of these little numbers, as well as how often they happen. Special effects (vorpal, maybe others) can trigger on the little hits.

That means if you got crazy lucky you could vorpal an entire room at once!

[Gol]

Negative ghost rider. The overall DPS of a THF character is diminished but not GREATLY diminished.

For THFers that stood there and autoattacked, correct. Twitchers with the THF feats suffered a great decrease in DPS (~30%, more if you had an epic SoS).

[Zachski]

TWF gets the most DPS by standing still and going through the attack animations. It has always been that way. it was especially so with tempest IIIs.

yes, if your AC doesn't stand up you have to stand their and take a hit.

So, then, if TWF do it, why can't THF do it? Unless you're specced for AC, the dex bonus that non-Ranger TWFs get is negligible. That's what I don't get.

And alright, so TWF can do an off-hand attack while running around. Good to know. But in that case, why was GTWF so necessary?

Sorry, I'm not trying to be an obtuse arguer, I just don't get it.

EDIT: Also, in higher levels, everyone wears robes or clothing anyways, right? Since AC isn't very relevant unless you're specced for AC. That'd basically mean that Fighters and Paladins end up with as much paper-thin AC as a Barbarian, who has the advantage of natural DR.

[BangsLiekWhoa]

The standard issue THF barbarian doesn't have enough armour class to stop a drunken kitten.

If they stop moving then they will take every hit that is thrown at them. When playing a quest that is close their level their HP will drop really quick if they don't keep moving.


As far as the DPS loss is concerned, try this:

Go into an area with a lot of monsters. Collect a whole bunch and stand still while swinging a two hander around. You should see a lot of little numbers on the nearby monsters that are not your direct target.

Now do the same as above except move around and swing in the general area of the group. Before the change you would see all those little numbers. Now you do not.

Taking more THF feats increases the damage of these little numbers, as well as how often they happen. Special effects (vorpal, maybe others) can trigger on the little hits.

That means if you got crazy lucky you could vorpal an entire room at once!

So... are you saying that THF,ITHF,GTHF simply increase the damage of glancing blows when standing still, or they also give you the chance to GB while you are moving? I think that would be the deciding factor for me.

[Gol]

So... are you saying that THF,ITHF,GTHF simply increase the damage of glancing blows when standing still

Correct.

or they also give you the chance to GB while you are moving?

It used to be this way, but not since update 5.

[grodon9999]

So, then, if TWF do it, why can't THF do it?

Because people want their max-STR, no-DEX, no-AC DPS-apes to be able to run around and avoid getting hit because of the way weapon range works in this game. It's not hard at all to do this with a two-hander and the AI's reaction time is too slow to hit you back. You can do this with TWF as well but it's harder to pull off.

Apparently Turbine doesn't want us to twitch because the AI is too stupid. With the current U5 physics (which I'm no fan of) the best thing to cause the most damage is stand there and take your licks.

[Reos]

It was nerfed due to lag reasons. Too many collision detection calls to the server by too many THF users blowing through entire mobs. You might argue it was OP'ed to begin with, but that's all relative to where you want to set the bar. IMO the different fighting styles should fulfill specific roles. Apparently TWF is the highest on-target DPS, does that mean that THF *should* be the best "crowd" DPS? Not sure if the devs have ever spoken about this.