Drow FvS: Worth it by any standard?

[lemonarian]

Wow, chill out a sec. Not making personal attacks on anyone here, just stating my personal opinion.

Ok, by all means, hit a 24 UMD without rogue/bard levels, without item swapping (since we're talking about on the fly invis, which means no pausing to flip 4 different items around) on 2 skillpoints per level.

And do it with ridiculous ease.

11 ranks
8 cha modifier
1 voice of the master
4 greater heroism
---------------------
24

Ok. By your definition of "ridiculous ease" this isn't perhaps that easy, but far, far from unattainable.

Having a +2 tome handed down is not ridiculous ease. +1 tomes don't even fall into the category of ridiculous ease. Ridiculous ease is something a brand new player can do...easily. So that's also a 28 point build, in case you were interested.

So don't put points in jump. Boo-hoo.

You should always base character decisions on bugs that will absolutely be fixed very soon. Extremely smart strategy.

And what difference does it make how full your SP bar was after the raid was finished? You don't get a bonus ring drop from Horoth's chest because your blue bar was all capped out.

Just making a point. Yeah when I made the toon I was planning for them to install a bug in update 5. Yeah totally. It's completely impossibly difficult to heal a raid without free heals.

Zero percent reason? We'll pretend that makes any sense at all.

At no point has anyone said "ZOMG, DROWZ IS TEH BESTEST! ALL J()() OTHERZ SUXK()RZ!". Or anything even remotely similar to that sentiment. Humans and the sovereign host capstone (which drow can also take, by the way) are quite nice. They are not the end-all-be-all of existence.

At no point did I say that anyone had said that. Just stating my opinion. Jeez.

By 0% reason I meant that there's really nothing that drow get, that outweighs the benefits of being human.

Like human adaptability and an extra feat... and no penalty to constitution... etc.

My point is simply that they don't get anything specific that makes it worth being drow rather than human.

In my opinion.

[Macromancer]

Ya I guess you can hit a gray area here, since the OP was asking if Drow FVS is worth it. I htink we're beyond that now with posting actual builds. This is more of a "how to do it best". Regardless of whether its the best race, we're talking about personal choice and if it is viable. Everything indicates that while human FVS might get some benefits, the play style of wanting to go invis, being a drow uber kewlness, maxxing out dual-wielding short swords, etc. are not there if you go human. This is a player style and my build is to find out the best way to go Drow FVS without gimping myself.
Lemon we all agree on the extra feat and amps humans get are awesome, but without the 32pt. builds available to me and having unlocked drow my ultimate decision is whether or not to drop the TP's to get FVS.

Everyone has been awesome here and thanks for clearing up a lot. I'm going to make the changes to be more melee specific, but the intent was to be able to cast some dmg spells if needed. After lemon's post though, I almost forgot rule #1, you can't be best at everything...you'll just be average. If you're in a raid and not running out of mana, even if I'm half that good then won't have any problems. I'll be posting update a bit later, working in the planner now!

[lemonarian]

Yeah, of course. It's a totally viable choice of race. Some of the best favored souls on cannith that I know are drow. Nothing wrong with it, nothing against it, just not optimal IMO.

For example invisibility... is a really cool capstone. Wish I could have both. But, since this can be achieved, even earlier than level 20 through the level 2 scroll vendor in the marketplace with a fairly accurate success rate with no fancy gear really... I, personally don't think it's worth it.

I started out my favored soul as a melee favored soul too. I was human and my human bonus feat got spent on Falchion proficiency. This was fun... but I gradually started moving over to be more of a caster.

Going melee makes you mediocre everything. Especially as a drow using shortswords... really not a very good weapon choice. Not being a melee class you'll deal mediocre melee damage. Having to pick feats to back up the melee aspect makes you a mediocre caster/healer.

Haven't really seen any pure build (ie, non 18/2 fvs/mnk) achieve a good balance of this. And if you splash - you lose 10 DR and your capstone. That 10DR is HUGE if you solo a lot.

Just some thoughts. By all means go drow if you like playing the race, no one's gonna call you gimp for it.

At the end of the day it really comes down to if you know what the little red crosses mean or not. Max wisdom, don't gimp your constitution, get the important metamagics... and it's pretty hard to fail.

[Macromancer]

There are some odd things about the build.
You call it melee focussed, but put level ups into WIS. Furthermore, you dont have Heighten for your DC, nor Maximize for your BB and your WIS is still rather low. In other words, you invest stats into DC but it'll be too low.
Same for Stunning Blow. 15 Starting Strength, no level ups into Strength, Drow dont get enhancements for increased stun DC -> forget Stunning Blow, it wont land.

I would dump Wisdom and put the points into Strength and Con and drop Stunning Blow and take PA or Maximize with it. Dropping Emp Heal for Max (and thus ending up with PA+Max) might be a good idea.

BB is the only 'offensive' spell in this build. In order to have it though, sounds like I have to gimp myself melee-wise. So what do you guys think if I drop this, which also removes the need for maximize, and go with PA alone? What to do with the extra feat?
1) Maybe mental toughness for the extra spellpoints to heal my mates (ends up being about 100 more points? is this worth the feat?).
2) Leaning more towards something derranged....wait for it...wait for it....maybe taking weapon finesse and maxxing out Dex. Hence this is becoming more a melee DPS/healer spec!!!!

Question is, by not taking any offensive spells am I gimping this character?

Also, if Finesse sounds like a good idea hear is one way the character would turn out.
Starting = 14/17/14/10/10/12
+2 tomes for all = 16/19/16/12/12/14
Increases = +2 Str level, +5 Dex (+3 level & +2Elven Dex), +2 WIS (FVS WIS), +5 CHA (+3 FVS CHAR, +2 Ascendancy),
Final Stats = 18/24/16/12/14/19
+7 Attack bonus from Dex (versus a +4 from Str from the previous build) and possible better AC???

I think this is enough Charisma +spells and +items.
Wisdom and Int are not important to this build.
Constitution is 2pts. better than before.

Thanks for putting up with my crackheaded ideas. Let me know what you think!?!?!?!?!?!

[Matuse]

Weapon finesse is not the cornerstone of any melee DPS based build. You'll hit a tiny bit more often, but this won't help your damage when you do hit.

Plus, not sure where you get the feat at all. FvS who want to melee and cast with any sort of decency are EXTREMELY tight on feats. Not even a human can do it with their extra (you will always end up leaving out 2-3 important ones).

[Muldamai]

A long time ago, I took a Drow FvS, and followed one of the set build paths. Once I learned what I was doing, and being stubborn, I did a Lesser Reincarnate. In fact, I think I have done 4 reincarnates on this character. Each one more successive towards a caster and less melee. I dropped the two weapon concept, there are not enough feats to really make it effective, so now I run around sword and board, or two clubs, or whatever I need for casting.

I do see the drawbacks to being Drow, but I won't give it up. My DC won't be quite as high as a human, but that will be livable. I do take the enhancements for shorts swords, every bit to hit and damage does help, and even though I am not a melee machine, I will eventually kill what I chew on. I also find it nifty to hit the shift key to add the extra DR so I can time my nukes and heals better while taking minimal damage. I can't wait for level 20 for free invis. At the very least (unless they have True Sight) I get bonuses to my defense, and an invis healer has some advantages.

[Carlll]

Lemon we all agree on the extra feat and amps humans get are awesome, but without the 32pt. builds available to me and having unlocked drow my ultimate decision is whether or not to drop the TP's to get FVS.

28 point Humans are better than Drow for most builds. This is especially true for melee FvS as they arent particularly stat intensive.

Everyone has been awesome here and thanks for clearing up a lot. I'm going to make the changes to be more melee specific, but the intent was to be able to cast some dmg spells if needed.

Blade Barrier is the only damage spell worth having and it still hits for half damage if the monster makes its save.

Going melee makes you mediocre everything. Especially as a drow using shortswords... really not a very good weapon choice. Not being a melee class you'll deal mediocre melee damage. Having to pick feats to back up the melee aspect makes you a mediocre caster/healer.

Yes to mediocre melee damage (you're a healer after all), no to mediocre healing.
A meleeing FvS is a full blown healer.
The full package for Healing is Quicken, Emp Heal and Maximize which you can fit into a Human without trouble:
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Toughness
PA
Quicken
Max
Emp Heal.

1) Maybe mental toughness for the extra spellpoints to heal my mates (ends up being about 100 more points? is this worth the feat?).

Not worth the feat.

2) Leaning more towards something derranged....wait for it...wait for it....maybe taking weapon finesse and maxxing out Dex. Hence this is becoming more a melee DPS/healer spec!!!!

Why Weapon Finesse? It costs a feat, you do less damage, you'll never reach relevant AC and your Reflex save is decent enough going Strength based.
Also there are more buffs for Strengths like Rage so you'll get Dex only minimally higher than Strength on a Drow. And you have enough stat points to reach the requirement for 2WFing AND good Strength without trouble (ie you can go 16 16 to only need a +1 tome).

[lemonarian]

Sure, on a human. Attempting the same thing with drow would be near impossible, as you really can't afford to drop any of those feats.

[Macromancer]

Sure, on a human. Attempting the same thing with drow would be near impossible, as you really can't afford to drop any of those feats.

So won't take finesse and instead go with Empower Healing. Also going with 16/16 STR and Dex.

So what will I do? Buff everyone, heal during encounters with some melee. Strong enough melee-wise to solo elite quests (with pet and hireling) of L15. Not that I will solo much since my intent is to have fun in groups and be useful in groups. But I think I will be able to if no one is around.

What I will NOT do: No offensive casting. No massive DPS. I'm ok with this so long as I can do the above.

It seems like I'm so close to having a build that will be so much fun to play! Please let me know your thoughts guys!!!

Here is the build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Drow_FVS Levelling Build
Level 20 True Neutral Drow Male
(20 Favored Soul) 
Hit Points: 322
Spell Points: 2020 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 17
Will: 13

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 22                   22
Dexterity            16                 18                   20
Constitution         14                 16                   16
Intelligence         10                 12                   12
Wisdom                8                 10                   12
Charisma             12                 15                   20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               5                 14                   14
Bluff                 1                  5                    5
Concentration         6                 26                   26
Diplomacy             1                  5                    5
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                  5                    5
Heal                 -1                  1                    1
Hide                  3                  5                    7
Intimidate            1                  5                    5
Jump                  3                  6                    6
Listen               -1                  1                    3
Move Silently         3                  5                    7
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                  1                    1
Search                0                  1                    3
Spot                 -1                  1                    3
Swim                  3                  6                    6
Tumble                n/a               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      n/a               14                   14

Level 1 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Diety) Favored by Vulkoor
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Spell (1): Nightshield
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion I


Level 2 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (1): Divine Favor
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness I


Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Spell (1): Protection From Evil
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Life I


Level 4 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom I


Level 5 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Acid
Spell (2): Eagle's Spendor
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Spell Penetration I


Level 6 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness II


Level 7 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (2): Owl's Wisdom
Spell (3): Magic Circle Against Evil
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II


Level 8 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (2): Bull's Strength
Spell (3): Mass Aid
Spell (4): Mass Shield of Faith
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness III


Level 10 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma II


Level 11 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Divine Power
Spell (3): Protection From Energy
Spell (5): Stalwart Pact
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II


Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom II


Level 13 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Spell (6): Heal
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion III


Level 14 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Mass Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness IV


Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Electricity
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (6): Blade Barrier
Spell (7): Resurrection
Spell (5): True Seeing
Enhancement: Favored Soul Shortsword Specialization I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic III


Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (8): Mass Cure Critical Wounds
Enhancement: Favored Soul Energy of the Scion IV


Level 17 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (7): Protection From Elements, Mass
Spell (8): Death Pact
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic IV


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Spell (9): Mass Heal
Enhancement: Favored Soul Shortsword Specialization II


Level 19 (Favored Soul)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (9): True Resurrection
Spell (8): Mass Death Ward
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma III


Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (9): Summon Monster IX
Enhancement: Favored Soul Ascendency: Vulkoor
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II

[Carlll]

Sure, on a human. Attempting the same thing with drow would be near impossible, as you really can't afford to drop any of those feats.

Well, it's supoptimal but i wouldnt say it's near impossible. You could drop PA for less damage or Emp Heal (or Max i guess) for slightly less healing spec.

So won't take finesse and instead go with Empower Healing. Also going with 16/16 STR and Dex.

Personally i would rather drop Emp Heal than Maximize since your Mass Cures might not hit hard enough, for my taste. And maximized BB is nice for soloing.
Yes, Mass Heal is all the rage these days and it has its uses but with the long casting time, you aint be swinging much when using Mass Heal. While a Mass Cure fires off nearly instantly.

But with Emp Heal it can work too.

The build is still very strong...
Human would be better though (also with 28 pts).

But your build is still very nice.

Very nice stats too, you only need a +1 tome for the TWFing feats and still start with 14 Con.

[lemonarian]

Yeah, I guess. Raid healing without emp heal/mass heal is gonna suck though.

If you want to solo elite quests, the easiest way to do it is to ignore meleeing and max wisdom and just grind **** through a BB.

Seems you really want to fit in a melee aspect though, so these options are fine I guess.

I will still encourage you to go human rather than drow though. A human with longswords > drow with shortswords.

You'll be fine though.

A word of warning however... Some melee oriented clerics/favored souls might have trouble getting into groups. Especially considering high level raids etc since a raid leader will take you for your ability to heal and not your melee prowess... and if the next guy is a well known pure healer you might not get priority.

[muffinlad]

A word of warning however... Some melee oriented clerics/favored souls might have trouble getting into groups. Especially considering high level raids etc since a raid leader will take you for your ability to heal and not your melee prowess... and if the next guy is a well known pure healer you might not get priority.

I want to echo this. I am currently playing a Drow/6Ranger/10FvS Melee with heals focused build- and hard may be an understatement. I have played 4 clerics and two FvS to very high level (17 to 20) and I know what most folks what from their healers....that would be...heals, and lots of them.

Get ready to start your own groups (or, like me) have a very strong guild.

Regs,

muffinlad