wf sorc vs drow sorc

[hockeyrama]

I see everyone saying that wf sorc are better then drow sorc. However, I have started trying both with different accounts as I only have the wf on my daughters so rolled one on hers.

My thoughts:
Yes a WF can self-heal. That is very effective and easy to do. He also has immunities that are nice as well. However, I have started to lean more towards my drow builds. Higher charisma allows me to get alot more spells to work. Example: with niac's and my WF it almost never works yet with my drow it almost always does.

Another important part is that at early levels the wf can fight and solo better. However, with a cleric hireling my drow has no problem mowing down the competition. Also, at higher levels my umd is high enough to give some awesome healing of wands.

Don' get me wrong i still like to play the WF sorcs but just find them way harder to use for casting then my drow sorcs. WOuld love to hear others opinions.

[Arctigis]

This is a debate that will never end as the only right answer is: It depends....

[xanvar]

This has been batted around for years, so obviously there is no right answer. Its more important who the player is at the keyboard than the race. Any race can make a good sorc. I prefer WF some prefer Drow. There is probably a person that prefers halflings.

[Irinis]

Hafling is the Master Race! Otherwise WF wouldn't have to sacrifice them to try to gain some of their power!

[LordArkan]

The Warforged sorcerer can solo at pretty much any level. Sure, your DCs are a couple points lower than a Drow, but properly taking that into account is part of the difference. And while your drow can use wands fine, you're not going to get to no-fail heal scroll usage, when a WF will be tossing reconstructs with no problem.
I've never liked Niac's on ANY character- it's quickly outclassed by other spells as you level up, and your primary enemies at low levels have high reflex saves.

[AphexTwin]

Another important thing to take into account is the usefulness of cure serious wands and pots at the higher levels because like LordArkan said, you won't have the umd to use heal scrolls without failure. While wands and pots do help some, you pretty much have to run around jumping in order to use enough of them to recover when you get hit hard, which takes you out of the fight and lowers your effectiveness. Reconstruct is awesome for this. If you don't have reconstruct, you will always be at serious risk and will likely have to stay closer to the healer.

Besides that I think Drows probably do make better sorcs because their spells tend to hit more, which is huge, but if it's that much harder to stay alive, well, that's why the debate will never end...

I just reincarnated my sorc from an elf (which was a bad choice to begin with) into a WF, so I'm testing this myself. If I can find a way to heal myself better I'll play a drow next time as I like want those extra four points of CHA.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I think a WF'ed WIZ pretty much blows away a Drow WIZ because the base INT at creation is only a two point difference.

Now when it comes to WF'ed Sorc vs. Drow Sorc I would have to say it really depends on what kind of build your making.

I would never make a WF'ed Sorc that relied on DC type spells, I just think the 2 points of DC lost is too big. However I love my STR build WF'ed Sorc that only uses non DC based damage spells and can melee efficiently. That is one fun character to play.....but then so is my MAX Cha Drow Sorc.

WF'ed Sorcs can do DC type casting too, they just have to work a little harder at it.


I think it really comes down to.....WF'ed are more survivable but cast a little less efficiently with DC based spells.......Drow are much more squishy but will land spells more often.

It's preference.......in the hands of a good player....either race choice will be successful.

[eunucorn]

I see everyone saying that wf sorc are better then drow sorc. However, I have started trying both with different accounts as I only have the wf on my daughters so rolled one on hers.

My thoughts:
Yes a WF can self-heal. That is very effective and easy to do. He also has immunities that are nice as well. However, I have started to lean more towards my drow builds. Higher charisma allows me to get alot more spells to work. Example: with niac's and my WF it almost never works yet with my drow it almost always does.

....

Yes, those two DC matter for Niacs while leveling up. But they don't matter at lvl8-13 when all you do is firewall. In those instances you'll find the self-healing of a WF far more useful as you can just stand in your WoF and shieldblock. At 14 you get Finger of Death where the 2 DC will come back to get you. There is huge power in the sorc class. Which race you choose is really up to you.

I will say this, IMO a Drow sorc is slightly inferior to a Human. The extra feat and extra skill point go a long way in a feat starved, INT starved class.

Oh, and to the poster that said you wont be able to hit no-fail on heal scrolls ... huh? Even as a cross class skill a 39UMD is not that hard to reach for a maxed CHA build. It will take some time if you don't have the gear (+6 shroud item w/ +3 necky or +5 gloves) but it's definitely doable.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yes, those two DC matter for Niacs while leveling up. But they don't matter at lvl8-13 when all you do is firewall. In those instances you'll find the self-healing of a WF far more useful as you can just stand in your WoF and shieldblock. At 14 you get Finger of Death where the 2 DC will come back to get you. There is huge power in the sorc class. Which race you choose is really up to you.

I will say this, IMO a Drow sorc is slightly inferior to a Human. The extra feat and extra skill point go a long way in a feat starved, INT starved class.

Oh, and to the poster that said you wont be able to hit no-fail on heal scrolls ... huh? Even as a cross class skill a 39UMD is not that hard to reach for a maxed CHA build. It will take some time if you don't have the gear (+6 shroud item w/ +3 necky or +5 gloves) but it's definitely doable.

Yep....u may not think the 2 DC is a big deal initially, but it is huge at end game when mobs are completely jacked up and every spell point matters. Which is why I tend to put a lot more into STR and CON on my WF'ed sorcs and leave the DC stuff to other races. But like I said before, a max CHA WF'ed can totally work, they will just have to work harder.

It's a trade off, which do you want more...they are both fun to play IMO.

[arminius]

I prefer the Human compromise between the resiliency of the Warforged and the offensive power of the Drow.....

And whoever said above that a fleshie never gets to no-fail Heal scrolls was wrong. With an Exceptional Charisma weapon and a +5 or +6 Charisma skills item, you get to no-fail Heal scrolls without breaking a sweat.

Now, does that compare exactly with the benefit of Reconstruct? No, you have to switch items, then hit it again to activate, then it's slow to cast (and because it's so slow vs. regular Sorc casting it is more interruptible), then switch back to whatever you had in your hand before. By the time you've done all that, you're likely to have gotten smacked in the head again and need to start the process over....

Then on top of it all, the Heal scroll won't benefit from the Maximize and Empower that the high level Sorc never turns off, the way that Reconstruct will. To boost the Heal scroll, you have to put points into Wand and Scroll Mastery, which is weak and expensive on enhancement-starved Sorcs, and definitely hard to get enthusiastic about. I take the first level on my Human Sorc, and say to heck with it.

[Chette]

A living drow sorc is a better caster than a WF sorc. The problem is that they often don't stay living for long
It's a trade off going WF, and one that is FAR worth it in my opinion, but to each there own, and I have no guff with drow sorcs.

[Jiipster]

Then on top of it all, the Heal scroll won't benefit from the Maximize and Empower that the high level Sorc never turns off, the way that Reconstruct will.

Reconstruct, having no random component, does not benefit from Maximize or Empower.

[hockeyrama]

from my game experience with my drow sorc who is only at level 8 so not going to talk about end game. I have found that he can throw a very powerful fireball or two and kill many mobs as they fail there save and take full damage. I use the fw first, but it more for the group, and it cast while running in. On solo I find I just walk up spamming fireballs. So the DC argument to me still favors the drow. I am finding fw more and more overrated at that level (I know this will make a few people mad, but in game for me I find it true a good fireball when you gather the mob is faster at killing then the fw and has a better chance of keeping aggro off me as they die faster then waiting for them to run around a fw).

Here are the two options you have at that level as a drow sorc in a party (both spells cast with maximize on). You run up cast fw and jump around and hope to not get killed while the enemy die. Or you run up cast a fireball or two and everything is dead. The 2 fireballs cost more sp but kill most mobs at that level just the same. The difference is no chance for the mob to hit you as they die by the time they get near.

Now I run in parties so I have found the argument of wf vs drow again favor the drow. Most groups have mainly fleshies (usually only 1 or 2 wf in a group). So you need a good healer for them to survive. So if you already have a healer then the drow can let him heal while you keep blasting away and as a drow your spells like fireball (as more fail the save and take full damage) and Dc spells can do more damage. So cast the fw on the way in, for the dps damage then spam fireballs and even the toughest mobs will die quick (I am talking about the 8-13 range plan of course later spells change as previously mentioned).


Also, the comment about niac's I take it early and swap it out soon after. Just was using it to compare how much more effective the DC is. My level 2/3 sorcs spam niac's and always win the kill count. After level 3 I don't use the spell and swap for expedios retreat.

[Nezichiend]

So OP, you are saying that at lvl 4 you like your drow sorc more?

[Renegade66]

I don't think it's a question of WF vs. Drow, but instead WF vs. Human. I respec'd my Drow Sorc to Human and he's way better in survivability. I have a WF Wizard, so didn't want a WF Sorc. If you are only planning on playing one caster, I'd go with the WF Sorc for sure though.

Marauder of Thelanis if you want to take a peak.

[KingOfCheese]

I've taken a drow, human, and WF to level 20.

I got rid of the drow. As a high DC-caster, my human does all of the things I liked about the drow--and adds some benefits that the drow does not have (for example, more hps).

I love both the human and the WF. They serve different purposes. The human has higher DCs and when raiding or questing with groups tends to be my favorite. The WF is unmatched in solo play (whether actually soloing or being in a group and breaking off to solo a part of the quest/raid)--particularly farming epic content. A well played human (or drow) CAN navigate the same content--but the WF does it using less resources and allows more sloppiness in playstyle.

[hockeyrama]

I've taken a drow, human, and WF to level 20.

I got rid of the drow. As a high DC-caster, my human does all of the things I liked about the drow--and adds some benefits that the drow does not have (for example, more hps).

I love both the human and the WF. They serve different purposes. The human has higher DCs and when raiding or questing with groups tends to be my favorite. The WF is unmatched in solo play (whether actually soloing or being in a group and breaking off to solo a part of the quest/raid)--particularly farming epic content. A well played human (or drow) CAN navigate the same content--but the WF does it using less resources and allows more sloppiness in playstyle.

This is what I think but as the high dc caster just find the extra dc from the drow useful when every point helps on the save. As i group I am not concerned about the solo survivability. HOwever, I have found that if I want to solo I just graba cleric hireling with DV and do fine as it make smore large sp pool even bigger.

My thinking:
if you want a solo go wf sorc

if you want a group sorc I would go drow or human. I admit human with the healing amp is good and the extra feat helps but i also like the extra cha so all about personal playstyle.

[Renegade66]

As i group I am not concerned about the solo survivability.

This is probably the biggest oversight made by people playing casters. Survivability is huge . . . always. Con is not a dump stat. All too often, the healer is worrying about the caster who has a majority of the aggro yet only 250 hit points. You can't even effectively run epic content without a good amount of hit points. My Drow Sorc had about 400 hit points, which wasn't enough for me. My human version has over 500 and gives up almost nothing compared to the Drow.

520 HP still doesn't compare to the 620 I have on my WF Palemaster Wiz, but they serve a completely different purpose with the Human Sorc being much more viable in Epic content.

KoC said it right and earned a +1 from me.

[Renegade66]

if you want a group sorc I would go drow or human. I admit human with the healing amp is good and the extra feat helps but i also like the extra cha so all about personal playstyle.

Drow has +1 CHA over a Human, which may or may not equate to a +1 bonus since you need to get to an even number to get the bonus. For example, if you have Litany and a +2 or +4 tome then the Human is equal in CHA to the Drow. If you don't have a Litany and have a +3 Tome then Human is equal in CHA to the Drow.

[KingOfCheese]

This is what I think but as the high dc caster just find the extra dc from the drow useful when every point helps on the save. As i group I am not concerned about the solo survivability.

At present, I believe the human and drow end up at the same DC. It varies mod to mod. The drow is one higher. But if that one higher puts you at an odd number, it doesn't give a benefit.

I believe the current max (without using temporary buffs) for a human is 42 and drow is 43--same DCs. Before the introduction of +7 items, it was drow 42 and human 41--drow had the advantage. It will probably flip again in the future.