Level 25+ Guild Renown Decay

[BurnerD]

I don't see decay working the way they think it will. The current amount of decay seems.... high. I think it will be scaled way down before long. I do like the idea of milestone levels. There should be a max to your decay drop.

A milestone every 5 or 10 levels would make sense.

The system also needs inputs for actual Achievment. Right now it's mostly about grindage.

How about Special Bonus Renown for Achievements like beating a quest / raid on elite and epic? How about making this renown immune to decay? If I understand correctly you can decay back to 25. Special Bonus Renown would increase this base. This could also be earned through events.

[Mockduck]

I don't see decay working the way they think it will. The current amount of decay seems.... high. I think it will be scaled way down before long. I do like the idea of milestone levels. There should be a max to your decay drop.

A milestone every 5 or 10 levels would make sense.

The system also needs inputs for actual Achievment. Right now it's mostly about grindage.

How about Special Bonus Renown for Achievements like beating a quest / raid on elite and epic? How about making this renown immune to decay? If I understand correctly you can decay back to 25. Special Bonus Renown would increase this base. This could also be earned through events.

I really like the idea of getting one-time guild decay immune bonuses for running quests on Elite and Epic. Not only does it make sense from a gaming and achievement perspective, but it also gives another boost to the game's favor system.

[Cyr]

How about Special Bonus Renown for Achievements like beating a quest / raid on elite and epic? How about making this renown immune to decay?

The idea of significant achievements granting a permanent increase to renown that is immune to decay is interesting. The key of course would be in it's implementation. I would think a decaying reward for achievement on an individual achievement much like the quest XP system would be ideal here.

Example Implementation...
Guild beats shroud elite with 12 guild members in party. They get first time completion renown bump. Then less of a bump for the second person in party and less for third person... All this bump is permanently added to their renown total and is immune to decay both increasing the min. renown number before decay sets in and decreasing the decay that does occur for the same renown number without that permanent boost.
All elite raids could have this implemented.
All epics could also have this implemented.
Eventually guilds will be getting very little perm. renown from stuff they grind a lot, but it certainly would grant an ongoing sense of accomplishment that can not be taken away from the guild however small that sets them apart from the ten thousand ant guilds running korthos and marketplace.

[Bozone]

Lots of good ideas. I like the idea of certain achievements giving permanent bumps to the level where decay beigins. But if, for instance, completing a quest on elite gives a permanent boost, it should require that the characters completing are at the appropriate level. Perhaps another small boost could be obtained if the guild completes it on elite below level for the quest.

I also think the higher level quests should give slightly more renown. As others have mentioned, beating a devil on his home plane would grant more renown than killing a kobold in the waterworks. But it could be argued that cleaning out the waterworks, which is in the middle of town and is much more visible to the populace, could give more renown even though it is less of an accomplishment simply because more people may notice it.

If epic quests give out 10x as much renown as low level quests, it seems the decay becomes a problem. Do you calibrate the decay rates to the power-gaming guild that farms epics? If so, the decay from a new player may be more than they can farm, discouraging inviting low level characters to the guild. It would also discourage starting new guilds for new players. Do you make decay a more complex equation that accounts for the levels of characters? This gets away from the decay being tied to accounts, and gets it tied to characters.

IMHO, the rewards should be fairly constant at all levels (maybe slightly higher for higher level accomplishments). Currently, they seem to be higher for the lower level quests, which should be tweaked.

But I think they haven't put in hte small guild bonuses yet, and I'm sure there will be more tweaks coming as this all progresses.

[Dark_Helmet]

The devs have said this is what they intend.

They also intended for DDO to be D&D 3.5 rules, release a dungeon a week and be bug free.

Well, okay I made up the last one, but you get the idea.

[Gremmlynn]

Pardon?
Do you know what the mathematical term "average" means?
To find the average of a set of data (in this case, a six sided die), you sum the data and divide by the number of entries in the list. In this case, 1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21. 21/6 = 3.5. The average result of a six-sided die is 3.5.

It's a central tendency, or in other words, the larger you take a sample of from the data set, the more likely the mean of that data sample is to resemble the average.

Exactly. But, first off 2-4 is not 3.5 and secondly, 3.5 will be the average of several six sided die rolls, but with any individual roll any result from 1 to 6 is as likely to be the result as any other. This fact is used in both D&D and DDO quite a bit, for example a great axe with it's 1-12 damage range has a 1 in 12 chance of getting max damage (or any other amount in it's range for that matter). While a great sword with it's 2-12 range only has a 1 in 36 chance of max damage, with 7 having the most likelihood of being generated (1 chance in 6 if my rusty math is correct).

[IronClan]

Exactly. But, first off 2-4 is not 3.5 and secondly, 3.5 will be the average of several six sided die rolls, but with any individual roll any result from 1 to 6 is as likely to be the result as any other. This fact is used in both D&D and DDO quite a bit, for example a great axe with it's 1-12 damage range has a 1 in 12 chance of getting max damage (or any other amount in it's range for that matter). While a great sword with it's 2-12 range only has a 1 in 36 chance of max damage, with 7 having the most likelihood of being generated (1 chance in 6 if my rusty math is correct).

Exactly. But, first off, that was a post with obviously humorous intent playing along with another sarcastic/humorous post. So your correction played out like the classic "unintentional comedy" set piece of someone who doesn't "get it" making a nerdy serious reply to a funny post that makes everyone stop and We're all nerdy here, it's D&D so I hope you don't take THIS post too serious.

Second in dice notation 3-4 would be the average range for a 1d6 as 3.5 isn't possible to roll of course this isn't mathematically correct as you can arrive at 3.5 with a full spread of the dice rolls, and 3-4 incorrectly implies you will roll a 3 or a 4 more often than others, but it is a common "short hand" and gets the point across and that's what matters. Not sure where iamsam pulled 2-4 from, but since the humorous moment has well past I guess the only thing left to do is contribute to the stick in the mud

[Hendrik]

Upon reaching L26, we lost about 5.5k.

Dropped us to L25 right away and then were able to attain L26 once again.

Suggestion;

Make the time of decay a sever standard time. Instead of decay starting right when you hit 26 and dropping you to 25, much rather see a standard time for decay to happen. For example, Noon/Midnight/whenever local Turbine Time.

With a sever standard this might be a better format for decay to happen vs 24hrs after your first decay. With the server standard and depending on when it happens, this could remove confusion with decay time and server down time.

[IronClan]

Upon reaching L26, we lost about 5.5k.

Dropped us to L25 right away and then were able to attain L26 once again.

Suggestion;

Make the time of decay a sever standard time. Instead of decay starting right when you hit 26 and dropping you to 25, much rather see a standard time for decay to happen. For example, Noon/Midnight/whenever local Turbine Time.

With a sever standard this might be a better format for decay to happen vs 24hrs after your first decay. With the server standard and depending on when it happens, this could remove confusion with decay time and server down time.

Ugh how big is your guild? This basically torpedoes any chance my small guild will even attempt to gain renown past the first airship... Not much point in worrying about large amenities either as we will need to grind to support them above the 25th level decay line so even level 25 is pointless to strive for...

[magnus1]

im still confused. why would anyone try to get past lvl20? you got the ship and it cant decay so why even put forth the massive effort it takes to keep your guild lvl above 25? it seems like a giant waste of time and effort. im gonna have a talk with my guild tonight to see if we can just stop grinding for something they will take from us anyway(med,lg ships)

say you get to 40 where you can access the med ship,but guild decay tosses yo back down to 39 or 38 youcant use that ship can you? if not, what good is it? what happens to all that stuff you worked so hard for?

it just seems like a big waste of time and resources,its notlike my 1st lvl rogue can make traps, its not like my 20thlvl rogue can make traps(that actually do help) by himself on board this thing

[r3dl4nce]

Decay start at 26, so getting the level 25 ship is good. At 25 you unlock the navigator on the ship, the fastest way to go to meridia without having teleport or /death.
More levels unlock good amenities, like +stat shrines and bigger guild chests.

When u get a bigger ship, even id the renown decays, you keep the ship and every amenity it's on the ship, when the rental contract expires you cannot buy more time for the amenity if you are lower guild level.

[knightgf]

I think Turbine absolutely goofed up the renown system and the XP with it as well.

The XP required to level is absolutely ridiculous. If guild scaling was on, it might not be as much of a problem for us, but it takes SO LONG just to get renown up. Even the big guilds in the game suffer from it. What, don't believe me? Look at the leaderboards list at the time this post was made. Do you see the top guilds anywhere near getting the medium size airships?

/silence

I thought not. Now I understand that Turbine never intended for guilds to get to 25 in a day, and that's acceptable, but the grindfest needed to get just the lowest level airship takes WAY, WAY too long. Add to the fact that the hireling vendors really don't add much motivation to leveling at the low levels, and id say its a recipe for disaster.

[r3dl4nce]

Do you see the top guilds anywhere near getting the medium size airships?

And why guild should have medium ships in less than 10 day from the renown start? I think level 50 will be around 5-6 months, level 80+ will be no less than a year. If you get all fast, what could be the meaning of the renown?

[Hendrik]

Ugh how big is your guild? This basically torpedoes any chance my small guild will even attempt to gain renown past the first airship... Not much point in worrying about large amenities either as we will need to grind to support them above the 25th level decay line so even level 25 is pointless to strive for...

Going by Leader board, ginormous. Going by actual in-game active CHARACTERS, 50+ on Guild nights and 20-30 on off nights. Most of our active ACCOUNTS have 3-5 Characters.

Without changing our playstyle we maintain 7-9k per hour for renown.

Renown for smaller guilds is not WAI and not the same beast as larger.

L25 is not pointless at all. There is NO DECAY for L25. That unlocks the Stormglory and a several Golden Contracts.

[Hendrik]

im still confused. why would anyone try to get past lvl20? you got the ship and it cant decay so why even put forth the massive effort it takes to keep your guild lvl above 25? it seems like a giant waste of time and effort. im gonna have a talk with my guild tonight to see if we can just stop grinding for something they will take from us anyway(med,lg ships)

say you get to 40 where you can access the med ship,but guild decay tosses yo back down to 39 or 38 youcant use that ship can you? if not, what good is it? what happens to all that stuff you worked so hard for?

it just seems like a big waste of time and resources,its notlike my 1st lvl rogue can make traps, its not like my 20thlvl rogue can make traps(that actually do help) by himself on board this thing

Before you do that, make sure you have the right information first.

And what's this 'massive effort' you speak of?

[IronClan]

Decay start at 26, so getting the level 25 ship is good. At 25 you unlock the navigator on the ship, the fastest way to go to meridia without having teleport or /death.
More levels unlock good amenities, like +stat shrines and bigger guild chests.

When u get a bigger ship, even id the renown decays, you keep the ship and every amenity it's on the ship, when the rental contract expires you cannot buy more time for the amenity if you are lower guild level.

There are two large amenities below level 26... in fact unless I missed one (I skimmed) there are a grand total of three large amenities below 32 and two of those are trap crafting stations for rogues (gold seal and normal), none of those are particularly interesting to me as a small guild leader.

I guess if you view crew hookpoints as more valuable then sure the lvl 25 ship is worth the extra 5 levels but just scale my argument up to lvl 25 and same point.. Small guilds might as well get used to being level 25-ish or maybe a little higher depending on where their ability to grind reaches equilibrium with the rate of decay and their particular # of accounts. I know this is speculation at this point, but I'm inclined to lean in the direction of "hamspter wheeling" by level 30-ish for small guilds that don't play together every night.

I can see a lot of smaller guilds just brushing it off, I already am... I might upgrade to the lvl 25 ship if everyone wants to pitch in some AD's to reach $50 bucks worth of AD's.

[r3dl4nce]

IMHO until the level to unlock +stat shrines, the crew hookpoint are the real useful amenities. Training Dummy (+2 to hit), ogre (+2 damage), scholar (+1 Spell Pen.), Navigator are simply too useful. The only useful low level hookpoint is the guild chest

[Lorz]

Before you do that, make sure you have the right information first.

And what's this 'massive effort' you speak of?

I dont get this...I and i know everyone ive asked is not grinding at Renown. We are not playing lowbies...in fact we are mainly running just like we always have...just running level appropriate runs. Yet we seem to be gaining at a rather decent clip. Last i looked we were level 23....and i dont see others grinding it...maybe they are but a big active guild should have no issue achieving sufficient renown. Will let you know this weekend as we will be clearly above the decay point.

But so far its nice, but im not running back to the ship every hour...if its handy great if not skip it.

The buffs are nice...but if its the difference between success and fail...YOU have already failed.

[Thrudh]

What's the big deal about decay?

A 25 level ship is fairly decent...

2 large, 6 small... with 4 crew

At 50 guild level, you only increase to 2 large, 8 small, right? with 6 crew.

At 55 guild level, you get 4 large, 10 small... with 7 crew...

Not that terrible to stick at 25.... You can still get:

+1 to a few stats, a small guild chest, +2 damage, +1 spell pen, +1 to all skills, +1 to enchantment DCs..

Now, those will cost you TP instead of plat... but you still have access to them... Looking at ddowiki.com, I think a good place to be so you don't have to spend TP all the time is around guild level 40...

We'll just have to see if that's possible for a small guild... They need to fix the small guild bonus soon, just to forestall all the gnashing of teeth...

[IronClan]

Going by Leader board, ginormous. Going by actual in-game active CHARACTERS, 50+ on Guild nights and 20-30 on off nights. Most of our active ACCOUNTS have 3-5 Characters.

Without changing our playstyle we maintain 7-9k per hour for renown.

Renown for smaller guilds is not WAI and not the same beast as larger.

L25 is not pointless at all. There is NO DECAY for L25. That unlocks the Stormglory and a several Golden Contracts.

Yeah but look through those contracts... the level 32 (large chest) is the first large amenity that catches my interest, the large amenities below level 32 aren't worth the trouble by themselves, I suppose the extra smalls and crew hookpoints might be to some, but I think the lvl20 ship looks like 90% of the value between the two lowest level ships. I not sure how many small guild players are going to pump TP's into short 7 day non-permanent small amenities... A navigator and a small chest is a couple hundred ugh... i just checked the chest is 400 tp a week,, for 550 TP a week... that's significant outlay for a static group guild with 5 or 6 active accounts.

500 tps on ONE WEEKS rental of the small chest and lvl 1 navigator... NOTHING else...

I'm not sure how smaller guilds are going to handle it, I guess small guild leaders better get ready to spend $20 a month just to have a navigator and a small chest...

Add a few other amenities and a guild leader will need to ask for dues or require officers to rotate purchasing the gold seal contracts every week. This means if you have 4 officers who are VIP they will each have to spend their entire monthly VIP points allotment plus 50 more tps just to maintain the barest functionality...

Whats trivial for a 16 person guild is asking way too much from a 5 or 6 member static group guild. Just imagine where the required TP totals get to when you add 5 or 6 more crew 2 larges and 5 or 6 smalls... good lord Turbine must be giggling madly over this... it's a cash cow...