Possible to Build a Monk Tank?

[samthedagger]

Monks are a melee class. I realize that. So hit points are obviously very important. But is it possible to build a monk with impressive end game AC? If so, how?

[Angelus_dead]

Monks can get a lot of AC pretty simply, as they get AC from both dexterity and wisdom. Any ways you can find to raise stats will help you raise AC by twice as much as another class would get from it. (This means that an AC monk is more dependent on 32-36 point builds than other classes)

The other keys are to use the Icy Rainments armor and to equip a greensteel weapon with +4 AC. It is very painful for a monk to use a non-handwrap weapon, as you lose a lot of combat ability doing so.

[samthedagger]

Is the loss of damage mainly attributed to the loss of touch of death? I see a lot of people touting that as one of the premier monk DPS abilities. I'm asking because I am working on rolling up a monk and want to do my research first.

[Hydro]

The loss of damage is mostly contributed to the fact that you will need to sacrifice strength to get your AC high enough to matter. Most AC monk builds only start with a 12 STR and they usually go light path for the healing both of which lowers your dps dramatically. Wis/Dex AC Monk builds are still good builds they make amazing solo characters and their stunning fist can be quite valuable in regular and epic dungeons.

My monk on the other hand is built to be able to hate tank while taking less damage and doing the same or more damage then any other hate tank currently. With max Str and TOD's hitting for 1000 points of damage I am doing great DPS while defensivly I have DR 10, Improved Evasion, WF Immunities, saves over 30, 100% healing or repairing, 714 hp (with my current build)in Earth stance, and 25% incorperality that stacks with cloudkill concealment on red names. I have been given compliments many times about how little damage I take and how easy I am to heal when tanking Sulu or even occsionally Horoth. This is a very gear demanding build so it is not for everyone but for Mod 5 I consider it to be the best raid hate tank.

Here is the link to my character if you want to check out gear:

http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/metaru/

And here is my current build that gives up a toughness for Stunning blow:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Metaru 
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 379
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 16
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    25
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         17                    21
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom                6                     8
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    27
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         7                    43
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                 -2                    -1
Hide                  3                     4
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  4                    22
Listen               -2                    -1
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     0
Spot                 -2                    -1
Swim                  4                     7
Tumble                7                    29
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I

[samthedagger]

Very helpful, thank you. Having successful builds to look at really helps me understand some things. The gear list is very useful too. It helps to know what I need to grind for or save on my other toons.

One side note though, I was talking about the reduction in DPS from using a weapon over using handwraps in my last post, not reduction in DPS by virtue of being a tank. I think I understand the latter fairly well. But since you can't craft greensteel handwraps I have been toying with using a short sword as a ninja spy. I can think of some interesting combinations for two greensteel short swords.

[Hydro]

Very helpful, thank you. Having successful builds to look at really helps me understand some things. The gear list is very useful too. It helps to know what I need to grind for or save on my other toons.

One side note though, I was talking about the reduction in DPS from using a weapon over using handwraps in my last post, not reduction in DPS by virtue of being a tank. I think I understand the latter fairly well. But since you can't craft greensteel handwraps I have been toying with using a short sword as a ninja spy. I can think of some interesting combinations for two greensteel short swords.

Shortswords can never come close to the dps of handwraps, not only can you not use touch of death with short swords, short swords are also not 2d12 weapons, the dont have the fastest base attack speed in the game, and lastly TOD rings will not work with them so you are giving up Holy and shocking burst (or some other burst combo) every swing.

[Dark-Star]

doing the same or more damage then any other hate tank currently

Be interesting to see how your hate stacks up on evil outsiders vs. a geared pali hate tank.

[Zhiel]

OK, so I am going to try to level a monk based on Hydro's Dark Monk Hate Tank build posted earlier. Any suggestions for gear while leveling? I am fairly new to the game and don't really know all the good runs for loot. Currently I am P2P, have 32 pts build and can start at L4.

What I have found so far is that I am having a hard time landing stunning blow (i.e. not being resisted) and most of my finishers are saved against. In mountain stance, I think my Wis drops to 4. No huge +wis at 5 though, so I cannot really improve that. Should I even bother with finishers using this build?

As soon as I am able, I will apply a +2 all tome to this toon. Thank you in advance for your help.

[Quijonsith]

If you want more of an AC/intimitank that is mostly monk Krigen in my sig has received numerous compliments on my tanking. I currently have 290% incoming healing in wind/earth stance and 362% in fire stance. I have 77AC currently with just barkskin, bard's AC song, and a shield wand. Once I get my bracers epic, my min 2 cloak finished, and a chattering ring i'll be sitting at 81 with the same buffs. I didn't get cursed in VoD on normal when I just had 68 AC so it didn't matter that I'm fleshy.

The inspiration for Krigen came from this build thread, though I have tumble and DoS instead of the 10% more healing amp from HotD and a few other differences to suite my own flavor. With monk speed and 38 tumble I still have plenty enough movement in defensive stance while raid tanking.

If you want a pure monk tank type I would go with shade's suggestion. A straight up AC monk who sacrifices his DPS to get combat expertise and dex/wis will not do enough damage to hate tank.

[epochofcrepuscule]

Be interesting to see how your hate stacks up on evil outsiders vs. a geared pali hate tank.

On a fully geared dex monk (only 26 str raged) halfling, I took horoth from a geared pali hate tank... multiple different times. Hate builds arent that great if they dont have the massive dps to back it up. Especially with monks dps when well geared.

[Quijonsith]

On a fully geared dex monk (only 26 str raged) halfling, I took horoth from a geared pali hate tank... multiple different times. Hate builds arent that great if they dont have the massive dps to back it up. Especially with monks dps when well geared.

I wonder if that was a 'true' pali hate tank as in a DoS pali with divine righteousness so he has 150% bonus hate on top of his evil outsider damage, plus any bonus hate from gear.

[epochofcrepuscule]

I wonder if that was a 'true' pali hate tank as in a DoS pali with divine righteousness so he has 150% bonus hate on top of his evil outsider damage, plus any bonus hate from gear.

he was, he bragged about it to everyone in grp, linked his gear... yadda yadda. So I made it my personal mission to steal aggro, in which case I was succesful.

[Zhiel]

Actually, I was looking at how to get Hydro's build working. It could just be that the build suffers early while being good late game. Either way, some gameplay advice on the build and leveling gear to look out for would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Phoenicis]

Actually, I was looking at how to get Hydro's build working. It could just be that the build suffers early while being good late game. Either way, some gameplay advice on the build and leveling gear to look out for would be appreciated. Thanks.

I've heard it said by a guildy that he levels his monk to 18 as a light path then either feat swaps (if planned correctly) or LRs into dark path for the end game.

Not the advice you were probab;y looking for but I believe he did say his build was gear intensive...

[Drakos]

Shortswords can never come close to the dps of handwraps, not only can you not use touch of death with short swords, short swords are also not 2d12 weapons, the dont have the fastest base attack speed in the game, and lastly TOD rings will not work with them so you are giving up Holy and shocking burst (or some other burst combo) every swing.

Well, for clarity sake I thought I'd point out the generally handwraps aren't 2d12 either. Normalltt at 20 there 2d10. To get them to 2d12 you need toeither TR from Monk into Monk, or get the special bracers and be in the right stance. Incidentally if you did both you should be at 2d14.

[nicro]

Actually, I was looking at how to get Hydro's build working. It could just be that the build suffers early while being good late game. Either way, some gameplay advice on the build and leveling gear to look out for would be appreciated. Thanks.

I'd pick up the Jidz-Tet'ka bracers and Blademark's Docent if you are WF since they are outstanding twinking items. The Fernia and Devotion handwraps are also nice for early levels since they have no minimum level. I'd also suggest going light path until you can pick up both Ninja Spy I and Touch of Death. That way you can keep up some form of concealment bonus all the time.

When I was soloing my WF monk I found having a WF wizard hireling was invaluable for providing haste and spot heals (avoid the fleshy casters, they are terrible).

[Hydro]

I'd pick up the Jidz-Tet'ka bracers and Blademark's Docent if you are WF since they are outstanding twinking items. The Fernia and Devotion handwraps are also nice for early levels since they have no minimum level. I'd also suggest going light path until you can pick up both Ninja Spy I and Touch of Death. That way you can keep up some form of concealment bonus all the time.

When I was soloing my WF monk I found having a WF wizard hireling was invaluable for providing haste and spot heals (avoid the fleshy casters, they are terrible).

The bracers and the docent are both amazing for leveling and I would reccomend both of them.

Also the monk is a dps machine at any level so it should be easy to get to 20.

[Therigar]

I'm confused by your thread title.

Can monks tank? That implies to me getting and holding aggro. The answer to that is yes.

Can monks have great AC? That implies to me getting to somewhere in the 70 to 100 AC range. The answer to that is yes.

Can monks do both simultaneously? I don't think so.

A tank generally uses a combination of DR and AC to minimize damage so often is a high intimidate build relying on active shield blocking for maximum DR. Not exactly a monk's forte.

Monk tanks usually depend on damage and hate generation to grab and hold aggression and use moderately high AC to minimize damage. Or that seems to be the case as I understand it.

If a person planned a 100 AC monk and then dropped DEX and WIS to their lowest possible numbers and instead put those build points into STR and CON you might get an 80 AC monk with enough STR to manage the hate generation and enough AC to tank all but epic content.

But the gear requirements are pretty big and the AC numbers depend on pocket paladins, bards, rangers, clerics and arcanes for significant boosts. Like I said up top, I'm not sure that it can be done.

[sirdanile]

I'm confused by your thread title.

Can monks tank? That implies to me getting and holding aggro. The answer to that is yes.

Can monks have great AC? That implies to me getting to somewhere in the 70 to 100 AC range. The answer to that is yes.

Can monks do both simultaneously? I don't think so.

A tank generally uses a combination of DR and AC to minimize damage so often is a high intimidate build relying on active shield blocking for maximum DR. Not exactly a monk's forte.

Monk tanks usually depend on damage and hate generation to grab and hold aggression and use moderately high AC to minimize damage. Or that seems to be the case as I understand it.

If a person planned a 100 AC monk and then dropped DEX and WIS to their lowest possible numbers and instead put those build points into STR and CON you might get an 80 AC monk with enough STR to manage the hate generation and enough AC to tank all but epic content.

But the gear requirements are pretty big and the AC numbers depend on pocket paladins, bards, rangers, clerics and arcanes for significant boosts. Like I said up top, I'm not sure that it can be done.

Monk dps is very clicky oriented due to their ki strikes, as such they have great burst which can steal aggro and as long as they can keep up their ki they can hold aggro... oremis necklace would be very helpful in this kind of situation.

But for a monk tank i'd expect to see something like 700 hp dark path monk in earth stance with dr 8/- And a 1 level splash of rogue for intimidate and UMD, possibly 2 to keep those skills max at 20...Ninja Spy for the extra 25% incorporealty. The real trick would be getting your ac up as you would probably want to go weapon finesse to allow your dex to be high though getting power attack is important for maintaining hate aggro. I'd probably have two sets of DT armor one with +5 Resist and crushing wave guard and +4 insight ac on it and another with the incite on the tempest and possibly the eldritch slots...the first set could be replaced with the icy raiments depending on how you set up your gear.

[Darkrok]

But for a monk tank i'd expect to see something like 700 hp dark path monk in earth stance with dr 8/- And a 1 level splash of rogue for intimidate and UMD, possibly 2 to keep those skills max at 20...Ninja Spy for the extra 25% incorporealty

I would bother with intimidate. Splashing rogue just for those two skills would be a mistake imho. Also, you get dr 10/epic from the monk capstone as well as better ki storage/regeneration/concentration. If you go pure you open up the option of fire stance tanking for certain fights as well. If you're being healed by a divine and don't need the extra 40hp's to survive then fire stance would make their healing more efficient. Obviously situational but by staying pure you retain that option without giving up your DR.