36 point monk build, feedback please

[DrylondS]

UPDATED BUILD 7/4

This would be my first monk, I'm strongly considering TRing my ranger into this build. I am not incredibly knowledgeable about monks, but this seemed like a good setup to me. Please give me constructive feedback on this setup.


Level 20 Human Monk
Lawful Neutral

Stats
Strength 17 (40 = 17 + 5 levels + 4 tome + 1 enhancement + 7 item + 1 exceptional + 1 litany + 4 sun stance)
Dexterity 15 (28 = 15 + 4 tome + 7 item +1 exceptional + 1 litany)
Constitution 13 (26 = 13 + 4 tome + 1 enhancement + 6 item + 1 exceptional + 1 litany)
Intelligence 8 (11 = 8 + 2 tome + 1 litany)
Wisdom 16 (30 = 16 + 4 tome + 2 enhancement + 6 item + 1 exceptional + 1 litany)
Charisma 8 (18 = 8 + 3 tome + 6 item + 1 litany)

Tomes Needed
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15

Feats (in order taken)
Dodge
Toughness
Two Weapon Fighting
Power Attack
Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Stunning Fist
Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
Toughness
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Toughness

Skills
40 Balance (23 ranks + 9 dexterity + 4 ninja spy + 4 greater heroism)
60 Concentration (23 ranks + 8 constitution + 15 item + 4 greater heroism + 10 capstone)
51 Jump (0 ranks + 15 strength + 2 enhancements + 30 clickie + 4 greater heroism)
38 Tumble (23 ranks + 9 dexterity + 2 enhancements + 4 greater heroism)
52 Spot (23 ranks + 10 wisdom + 15 item + 4 greater heroism)
45 Move Silently (13 ranks + 9 dexterity + 15 item + 4 ninja spy + 4 greater heroism)

Enhancements
Monk Serenity
Human Versatility I
Human Versatility II
Human Versatility III
Human Improved Recovery I
Human Adaptability Strength I
Human Adaptability Constitution I
Static Charge
Porous Soul
All-Consuming Flame
Winter's Touch
Touch of Death
Way of the Elegant Crane I
Way of the Elegant Crane II
Void Strike
Adept of Flame
Master of Bonfires
Grandmaster of the Sun
Adept of Rain
Master of Sea
Grandmaster of Oceans
Racial Toughness I
Racial Toughness II
Racial Toughness III
Monk Jump I
Monk Jump II
Monk Tumble I
Monk Tumble II
Monk Wisdom I
Monk Wisdom II
Ninja Spy I
Ninja Spy II

Attack Bonus
20 base
15 strength
5 weapon
4 greater heroism
4 spectral gloves
2 shintao monk
1 litany
51 self buffed

Hit Points
160 levels
20 heroic
10 draconic
30 greater false life
160 constitution
20 rage
66 toughness feats
30 racial enhancements
20 toughness item
45 shroud item
40 yugoloth potion
601 self buffed

Armor Class
10 base
5 monk
1 dodge feat
4 icy raiment dodge
1 alchemical dodge
3 chattering ring dodge
9 dexterity
12 wisdom (in water stance)
4 insight (greensteel 1)
1 +2 exceptional dexterity (greensteel 2)
1 +2 exceptional wisdom (alternate ToD ring)
5 protection
5 barkskin
8 armor bracers
1 haste
2 defensive fighting
4 shield clickie
76 self buffed AC

Saves (fort/reflex/will)
12/12/12 levels
8/9/10 attributes
5/5/5 resistancel
-2/0/0 enhancements
4/4/4 greater heroism
5/5/5 ocean stance
32/35/36 self buffed

Stunning Fist DC
10 base
10 half monk levels
12 wisdom (ocean stance)
10 stunning wraps
DC 42

Notes
1) I would anticipate using fire stance most of the time. Other than touch of death, this build would predominately use fire, fire, fire, and void, dark, void finishers. Water:dark:water would also be useful for humanoid enemies, paralyze with a DC42.

2) Ninja Spy II opens up good options for shortswords, especially for tanking.
Mainhand: +4 insight AC, Mineral II
Offhand: +2 exceptional dexterity, smoke screen

3) Move silently skills points are so I can sneak semi-effectively using Shadow Fade and Empty Body. Will 45 move silently be enough to effectively sneak around with these tools?

4) Defense should be good with high AC (probably low 60s in DPS gear), stacking shadow fade and displacement.

5) Stunning fist DC should be sufficient for epic/anything else.

Target Gear (some of this I have, some I need)
Weapons: wraps, shortswords
Armor: Icy Raiment, Enlightened Vestments (banishing)
Bracers: Epic Jidz-te'tka
Gloves: Epic Spectral Gloves / Titan's Grip (clicky)
Belt: Epic Belt of the Mroranon
Boots: Madstone / Boots of the Innocent / Epic Dustless / Epic Kundarak Delving
Cloak: Greensteel 45hp, +5 protection, heavy fort
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Helmet: Epic Helm of the Mroranon
Ring 1: Kyosho's Ring (dps) / Morgana's Ring (tanking)
Ring 2: Gnawed Rihg (dps) / Chattering Ring (tanking)
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Trinket: Litany


Please provide any useful feedback. Thank you!

Leorwen
(currently) 18 ranger / 1 rogue / 1 monk
<Ransack> of Khyber

[ripperj]

im just gonna break down a few things, nothing very organsized, mostly all over the place

so, unless your using a +1/2 dex tome early on, your not getting the twf line until lvl 15?
you will regret it by the time you hit lvl 9 when u can get imp.twf trust me.

I dont know what the past life feat does and dont feel like looking it up, but it might be beter to just
pick up stunning blow instead. That way you can cycle between two stunning moves.

move silently? for real?

monks get natural spell resistance, so dwarven spell defense...is that really useful?
and eagle claw attack?

DC's look pretty good and I dont think dwarven tactics will really help, or all those toughness enhancements
free up some AP.

also consider squeezing in grandmaster earth stance, huge dps from the strikes there, something else you'll
regret not having

[DrylondS]

Ripper, thanks for the response.

I can use lower value dex tomes fairly easily to meet TWF requirements.

The past life feat lets me cast barkskin at full character level, so +5 for 20 minutes at level 20. I thought it might be useful for soloing, if I ever TR the character again, I would probably replace it with the monk past life for extra unarmed damage.

The move silently would be so I can move effectively while in shadow fade or empty body. Is this a bad idea?

I agree the dwarven spell defense is maybe a waste. I couldn't decide where else to put my final enhancement point.

Eagle claw attack would be so I can cycle fire finishers more quickly without having to wait for the cooldown.

Yeah...I would like to have more stance options, I may look into a human build if the difference between a 42DC and a 45DC doesn't seem to be too significant. I think a human build would probably give me more flexibility with stances.

[LAWPRE]

I know that you can get +2 tomes @ the DDO Store - so those can be counted on. However, how easy is it to fet +4 tomes? I would not count +3 or +4 in your plans unless you already have them available or do not mind grinding for them.

I would try the DragonMarks feats if you are undecided - you can get more uses through enhancements. They are useful but get mixed reviews from teh forums. I have taken Sentinel and (whatever gives healing) and find both to be quite useful but none of my toons are over 15. If you do not like them, you can LR or retcon with relative ease.

Also, you have not accounted for Ninja Spy III in your enhancements - so you might think about "saving" points for when that comes out.

everything else looks fine. I am not a big fan of odd starting stats but that is a personal choice and not really a game breaker.

[ripperj]

Ripper, thanks for the response.

I can use lower value dex tomes fairly easily to meet TWF requirements.

The past life feat lets me cast barkskin at full character level, so +5 for 20 minutes at level 20. I thought it might be useful for soloing, if I ever TR the character again, I would probably replace it with the monk past life for extra unarmed damage.

The move silently would be so I can move effectively while in shadow fade or empty body. Is this a bad idea?

I agree the dwarven spell defense is maybe a waste. I couldn't decide where else to put my final enhancement point.

Eagle claw attack would be so I can cycle fire finishers more quickly without having to wait for the cooldown.

Yeah...I would like to have more stance options, I may look into a human build if the difference between a 42DC and a 45DC doesn't seem to be too significant. I think a human build would probably give me more flexibility with stances.

oh, the past life feat sounds pretty cool, but I dont think it will make much of a difference

when in shadow fade, you go invisable and get incorporeal, it doesnt put you into sneak mode
so it wont help you move or anything, unless im mistaken and move silently works even if your not sneaking, but i dont think so.

go shadow fade and empty and get invis, and 25% ontop of 50% miss chance, you can move extra fast and see very little, once u make an action (like attacking) youll lose invis, and all of empty, but stil have 25% incorp.

if your gonna be in sun stance, you'll have plenty of fire attacks to cycle through for your finisher, eagle isnt very handy unless your having trouble hitting things and need to drop mob ac.

[DrylondS]

Yeah, I amended my initial build to make some changes. Human now instead of dwarf, some slightly different stats.

About the move silently thing....my understanding was that the invisibility ability can essentially double as the hide skill. So if I go into sneak mode after using shadow fade, the only thing that will allow mobs to detect me is the sound of my movement...therefore the need for move silently ranks. This seems like, in theory, it would be a great way to bypass some monsters while regenerating ki at the same time!

If the actual in-game mechanics don't work like that, someone please let me know.

[Spode]

Icy Raiment and Chattering ring dodge bonuses won't stack for AC.

[nicro]

Icy Raiment and Chattering ring dodge bonuses won't stack for AC.

They do indeed stack; Chattering Ring provides a +3 dodge and Icy Raiment provides a +4 dodge and all dodge bonuses stack that have different magnitudes. Sources with the same dodge magnitude, however, do not stack. See ddowiki.com for more info on dodge bonuses.

[butlerfamilywa]

They do indeed stack; Chattering Ring provides a +3 dodge and Icy Raiment provides a +4 dodge and all dodge bonuses stack that have different magnitudes. Sources with the same dodge magnitude, however, do not stack. See ddowiki.com for more info on dodge bonuses.

I've been curious about that, on my paladin I have the +1 dodge bonus on my shield, and my armor, and they both stack together.

[Superspeed_Hi5]

You dont generate ki that fast at level 20. Fastest way to do so is in sun stance or Oremis Necklace? I dont think its the set you need to get the bonus. However another monk I run with that is dark burns through Ki and has to use Oremis in order to keep ki up, so count on using that in neck slot. You can swap in Shintao when you are on a raid boss.

[DrylondS]

I was hoping that I would have enough ki generation between elegant crane II, capstone, and grandmaster sun stance to run with Shintao, if this proves not to be the case, I may have to look at Oremi's as a solution.

The dodge bonuses should all stack properly. The dodge feat and alchemical +1 DO stack, even though they are the same magnitude.

Any further thoughts on the move silently issue?

[Quijonsith]

As far as move silently goes here's some advice from one who's been there:

If you are invisible you can still be heard and pinpointed. If you jump from one point to another with enough jump to get a decent distance they will look where you jumped from before moving on to what they hear of you landing. Move silently will help with this dramatically, but it only works while in stealth mode.

Next point: Invisibility to replace hide. This works on most mobs but there is one problem: if you come across any enemy with true seeing it WILL see you. Many casters have this and I know from personal experience that orthons and devils in amrath have it. True seeing, however, does not see something that is hiding if the hide score is high enough. When my monk was stealth based I snuck through all of bastion of power and sins of attrition by myself right up behind them without being seen. Invisibility would have been seen in an instant.

Monk Empty Body (shadow walk) does not put you into stealth mode nor does it make you harder to see/find. It gives you 50% miss chance and increased run speed with decreased vision. That being said it is still monumentally useful once you get used to the limited visibility. You can use stealth and monk invisibility together while also already in shadow body to get much faster movement and that nice ninja spy ki regeneration while sneaking and the invisibility incorporeality miss chance stacks with the empty body miss chance.

[sephiroth1084]

Why bother with Human Versatility? What is it getting you?

More healing amp seems like it would be a good idea.

Also, why Water Stance over Wind? While low, the chance to get 3x ToD seems significant, if not simply fun and flashy.

[DrylondS]

Quijonsith: Thanks for the input regarding stealthiness, this clarifies quite a bit. I don't suspect I would try to use stealth THAT much, but I just wanted it to be an option in certain situations. Do you recall what threshold levels your hide/move silently skills were in order to be successful in Amrath quests? Would you recommend I reorganize my skill selection a bit in order to include some hide as well?

Sephiroth: What does human versatility get you? It's only the second best combat boost in the game behind rogue/fighter haste boosts.... To-hit, damage, saves, AC, skills. As the name suggests its extremely versatile, and +4 to any of those categories can be incredibly useful in any number of situtations. That being said, I do recognize the usefulness of healing amplification, especially on humans who can stack it so effectively. If I was going the route of light monk, or halfling with dragonmarks I think I would certainly take the healing amp. Even the 55% healing amp this build will have (in fire stance) alone will make me easier to heal than most other targets in group, not to mention I should be taking significantly less damage due to dr10/epic, improved evasion, high AC, and shadow fade/displacement.

My opinion is the more squishy you are, the more you need healing amp so your health doesn't lag behind the rest of the group when you are getting hit with mass cures. This build should have pretty tremendous defense, reducing the need for healing amp (in my mind).

With regard to stances, I'm going back an forth on it. Thankfully since they are enhancements I can switch them on a whim. My attitude is basically the build provides sufficient APs for grandmastery in 2 stances. Which two I choose is flexible. My basic thought process is I will want 1 stance for DPS (either fire or wind), and 1 stance for defense (either wind or water). While wind is very nice since it can double as both, fire is probably better for maximum dps so I can crank out ki finishers machine-gun style. Water is definitely best for defense, not only increasing AC and saves, but also the DC on my defensive abilities (stunning fist and freezing the lifeblood - both DC42).

[Quijonsith]

I don't know if you know this about healing amp DrylondS, but different sources of healing amp multiply together. The more separate sources you have the higher it goes. If you have 20% from monk and 25% from jidz-tet'ka it actually comes out to 50% amp rather than 45% amp (When I go fire stance on Baaldon I get 1s and 3s from healing curse with this setup).

So if you have 30% human, 30% monk, and 25% jidz-tet'ka you actually have 1.3*1.3*1.25=2.1145 which is 211% incoming healing or 111% healing amp. Currently on Krigen when I go into fire stance I have 201% amp for 3s and 6s from healing curse.


Human versatility: I have it on Krigen and it is to me one of the best enhancement lines in the game.

Hide and Move Silently skills: I don't know what the threshold was but when I was sneaking around I had:

12 from having 34 dex
23 from ranks/racial modifier
10 from (insert named item here that had +10 to hide and move silently, forget the name)
Total: 45

Sometimes I forgot to use the +10 item I had so I don't know if it was overkill or not, but I do know that when I used it I was never seen in amrath quests while sneaking. Even right up to the demon queen in bastion of power. I'm afraid that I don't actually know any threshold though. I figured if I was gonna sneak I wanted to be **** sure I couldn't be seen.

-Come to think of it though, when I tried to sneak upstairs in the subterrane to get the lever that opens the door to VoD I was seen by atleast one of the mobs at some point, but I think that was me getting to close to them as opposed to not having enough hide/move silently. That is something you really have to learn how to use effectively. If you go too close they will know you're there.

It was always fun in lower levels sneaking up to a boss, breaking a container near him and backing off, then watching him wander over to the container wondering what happened.

[sephiroth1084]

Sephiroth: What does human versatility get you? It's only the second best combat boost in the game behind rogue/fighter haste boosts.... To-hit, damage, saves, AC, skills. As the name suggests its extremely versatile, and +4 to any of those categories can be incredibly useful in any number of situtations. That being said, I do recognize the usefulness of healing amplification, especially on humans who can stack it so effectively. If I was going the route of light monk, or halfling with dragonmarks I think I would certainly take the healing amp. Even the 55% healing amp this build will have (in fire stance) alone will make me easier to heal than most other targets in group, not to mention I should be taking significantly less damage due to dr10/epic, improved evasion, high AC, and shadow fade/displacement.

Eh. The boosts tend to be too short to be very effective in my experience: +X AC for 20 seconds out of every 40 is rarely useful because if you need AC, it is probably for a longer period of time.
The attack boost is nice.
The skill boost is only mainly useful for skills that are being used in short spurts and for which having a higher bonus is very important (UMD).
The saves boost is similar to the AC boost, except that it can be useful when jumping through traps. So, I'd rate it as being mediocre.
The damage boost is okay, but tends to reduce your DPS if you activate during a fight, rather than prior to entering combat, although I'll admit that I haven't run, or seen, the numbers for this on a monk--with their very high attack speed and relatively low damage per hit, it may be worthwhile.

That looks like a whole lot of mediocrity to me. For the cost, you could get another stance upgraded, or get healing amp (still useful on a high-defenses build as, if you are the sole target of healing, the healer will be able to keep you up that much easier. You could pick up Monk Wis III and adjust to that, or...I dunno.

[Quijonsith]

Eh. The boosts tend to be too short to be very effective in my experience: +X AC for 20 seconds out of every 40 is rarely useful because if you need AC, it is probably for a longer period of time.
I use my AC boost while raid tanking if I'm at the threshold of no-hit vs. some hits and I take an unlucky string of damage. To me it has been quite beneficial when I need it.

The attack boost is nice.
I've actually never used the attack boost myself, don't have any problems hitting on krigen so far.

The skill boost is only mainly useful for skills that are being used in short spurts and for which having a higher bonus is very important (UMD).
Agreed. I use skill boost for UMD but that's all. If I need it for anything else it needs to be no-fail on its own anyway.

The saves boost is similar to the AC boost, except that it can be useful when jumping through traps. So, I'd rate it as being mediocre.
Agreed again and I never remember to use it because it takes up a use of all the human boosts that I could use for skill or damage.

The damage boost is okay, but tends to reduce your DPS if you activate during a fight, rather than prior to entering combat, although I'll admit that I haven't run, or seen, the numbers for this on a monk--with their very high attack speed and relatively low damage per hit, it may be worthwhile.
When I use it on krigen I get a VERY noticeable increase in DPS. +4 damage in wind 3 with unarmed attack speed is indeed an increase over that 20 seconds even with the activation animation. Even more so when I hit fighter haste boost with it. I kill much faster even though I stopped to use 2 boosts and I kill much faster even when I stop to just use either boost.

That looks like a whole lot of mediocrity to me. For the cost, you could get another stance upgraded, or get healing amp (still useful on a high-defenses build as, if you are the sole target of healing, the healer will be able to keep you up that much easier. You could pick up Monk Wis III and adjust to that, or...I dunno.

I would not consider Monk Wis III worth the AP unless I really had alot of extra AP. It's 6 AP for a +1 to wis, which at best could make it even and give you a +1 to AC, +1 to your monk DCs, and +1 to your will save and will based skills. Not worth 6 AP to me unless I absolutely don't need 6 AP somewhere else.

[Darkrok]

I would not consider Monk Wis III worth the AP unless I really had alot of extra AP. It's 6 AP for a +1 to wis, which at best could make it even and give you a +1 to AC, +1 to your monk DCs, and +1 to your will save and will based skills. Not worth 6 AP to me unless I absolutely don't need 6 AP somewhere else.

I'd go one further there. I don't really see monk II as being worth the AP's either. It's also 6AP's (2 for tier I, 4 for tier II) for the same effect. Now if you're on an odd number for wisdom spending 2AP's for tier I is fine. Otherwise you're spending 6AP's for a marginal benefit.

[DrylondS]

I wouldn't call +1 AC, +1 to the DC of all monk finishers, and +1 to the DC of stunning blow a trivial benefit.

[LAWPRE]

It is not the magnitude but the SOURCE that decides what does or does not stack. A +6 from sources A, B, C will get you +18. However, +6 from sources A, A, C will get you +12 and +6 from C, C and C will get you +6. There is one thing that will override this - epic items (specifically exceptional bonuses) from the same two sources with add.

I believe that stat (Dex in this case), Magic, Armor, Shield, Force, Tomes and Natural are the different basic item codes. So, +40 (as Tomes will add +1 to AC for every 2 points) to AC should not be that difficult and this is still true for a Monk (as Wis and Dex count for them).