Pale Master/Rogue Build Help <(~_~)>

[Nexicus]

Hey guys,

I was thinking of building a Pale Master wizard with some lvls in rogue for traps, locks evasion etc

But i realised..I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO BUILD ONE..
So i call on you people to help me out.
I currently have drow unlocked on Kyhber and around 500 ddo store points.
Im not vip and i dont have 32 point builds yet, please try to make it simple because im still new-ish to this game.

I was thinking:

Str: 10
Dex: 15
Con:13
Int;18
Wis:10
Cha:10

This is just a quick guess but i still have no idea when to take the rogue lvls and what feats to get , weapons etc.. plz help

Thanks in advance

[exactor_mortis]

Hey guys,

I was thinking of building a Pale Master wizard with some lvls in rogue for traps, locks evasion etc

But i realised..I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO BUILD ONE..
So i call on you people to help me out.
I currently have drow unlocked on Kyhber and around 500 ddo store points.
Im not vip and i dont have 32 point builds yet, please try to make it simple because im still new-ish to this game.

I was thinking:

Str: 10
Dex: 15
Con:13
Int;18
Wis:10
Cha:10

This is just a quick guess but i still have no idea when to take the rogue lvls and what feats to get , weapons etc.. plz help

Thanks in advance

Dump the points you have in Wis and Str. Their only real use in this case is for will saves and melee damage. Further, as a wizard, you'll have good will saves anyway. Put all those points saved into Int. You'll want the extra points for skills from a higher int to fuel the rogue skills you'll want to be advancing on your wizard levels.

Personally, I avoid odd stats on character creation unless you're just stretched that thin in order to get a feat you feel you NEED.

32 point characters don't work for Drow as they're considered 32 point characters anyway.

Take Rogue as your first level, and again at level 9 or so, once you get Firewall. Yes, it's just that good.

I'd start with something like this:

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 20
Wis 8
Cha 10

Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting (knowing you'll end up dumping it later through a feat exchange when you get to the point you're not meleeing all that much).
Toughness

Skills:
Disable Device
Open Lock
Spot
Search
Use Magical Device
Concentration

Levels:
1 Rogue
2-9 Wizard
10 Rogue (use this to fill in any skills you've neglected)
11-20 Wizard

Just my opinion, of course. Others will be sure to disagree with me.

[a6014z]

Hey guys,

I was thinking of building a Pale Master wizard with some lvls in rogue for traps, locks evasion etc

But i realised..I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO BUILD ONE..
So i call on you people to help me out.
I currently have drow unlocked on Kyhber and around 500 ddo store points.
Im not vip and i dont have 32 point builds yet, please try to make it simple because im still new-ish to this game.

I was thinking:

Str: 10
Dex: 15
Con:13
Int;18
Wis:10
Cha:10

This is just a quick guess but i still have no idea when to take the rogue lvls and what feats to get , weapons etc.. plz help

Thanks in advance

I am new to DDO also, maybe a few days ahead of you when it comes to doing a Drow PM. Someone with more experience will come along, but until then:

You stats distribution not quite the same as mine I used 12 str, 10 dex, 13 con, 20 int, 8 wis, 10 chr. You can make a choice between str and con there. However you really want to max int to take advantage of the drow bonus. In your set up the dex is not necessary - you arent really making a rogue, just taking advantage of evasion and traps.

The first feat decision is insightful reflexes or toughness for me. Since I planned to do a pet heavy leveling plan I chose insightful reflexes. Eventually you will use this with evasion/rouge. My plan was 2 levels of rouge. First level rouge and 8th level rogue. This gave me a few extra points at first, then evasion when the leveling process gets a little harder and I really need evasion. Immediate toughness was not a choice for me, I manage to level in areas where I leverage command and charm spells while using hirelings and pets. (I dont get hit that often) Putting rogue #2 off till 8th also gave me time to get better pets for that level also. Here is the order of feats and choices I toyed with:

[1] Toughness or Insightful Focus
[2] Spell Focus: Necromancy
[3] Empower Spell
[6] Maximize Spell + Mental Toughness/Augment
[9] Extend Spell
[12] Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy + ?caster feat

The rogue evasion feat comes automatic at 8th level in my plan.

Enhancements you need to plan for the PM requirements: Energy of the Scholar and Wizard Int. Other than that its up to you I took concentration, Elemental Manipulation (fire/cold), Spell resistance, Imp. Empowering, Subtle Spellcasting - cant remember the order. Just the wizard basics. I cheated off of Daehawk's DDO forum blog page. he gives great hits and is a decent fellow that shares his experiences.

Sorry I couldnt be more help. I play Kyhber also - Tarantules. Get in touch if you need info.

[GhoulsTouch]

5 level ups and 3 enhancements available to intelligence from level ups and class
for Drow 3 enhancements for Dex from race and class...think of it like that. Going eleven dex would end you up at an even number if you took all the enhancements. Or you don't even have to take them all. Things to consider.

High dex seems more for a stealth mage then a trap guy though.

[Darkrok]

Good advice all around. I'd recommend dumping dex and going 10/10/14/20/8/10 or 14/10/12/20/8/10. Also, rogue 2 at level 9 works really well as you can take insightful reflexes at the same time and get that huge bump to reflex and evasion at the same time.

One word of warning...the enhancements will be VERY tight. Less so than on my warforged that wants to take force enhancements as well but still very tight. It would be well worth the time to sit down with a character planner to figure out how you're going to fit it all in. Personally I gave up the idea on my warforged but on a drow it might be worth the effort.

[Phidius]

Hey guys,

I was thinking of building a Pale Master wizard with some lvls in rogue for traps, locks evasion etc

But i realised..I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO BUILD ONE..
So i call on you people to help me out.
I currently have drow unlocked on Kyhber and around 500 ddo store points.
Im not vip and i dont have 32 point builds yet, please try to make it simple because im still new-ish to this game...

Multiclassing Wizard with Rogue is a very powerful combination. However, you need to make sure you have a strong focus for the build.

Race: Drow - There are only 2 benefits from going Drow that I can know of.

1. Cheap 32-point builds. Personally, I'd go with a 28-pt Human/WF over Drow.
2. Highest starting Int.

Class: Wizard (over Sorc)- The capstone for going pure is a +2 Int, so an excellant choice if you are going for the highest DCs you can get.

Pale Master - giving up durability to get higher DCs on your spells (+2 Int while in one form or another - I don't actually have any myself).

So far, your choices indicate a desire for better casting at the cost of survivability (WF Wiz is very, very tough).

I don't recommend you dillute your casting DCs by splashing rogue.

...

I was thinking:

Str: 10
Dex: 15
Con:13
Int;18
Wis:10
Cha:10

This is just a quick guess but i still have no idea when to take the rogue lvls and what feats to get , weapons etc.. plz help

Thanks in advance

It looks like you have an extra build point left over.

As I mentioned earlier, choosing Drow but starting at an Int of 18 isn't a good idea. You'd be better off going human in this case, even with a 28-pt build.

Can you build a Drow 18 Wiz/2 Rog Pale Master? Sure!

Would it be fun? Undoubtably.

Would you feel pain and question your decisions the higher you got in level as you watch your WF brethren stride confidently through mobs that just wiped the rest of your party? Very likely.

If you're the kind of person who strives to build the very best character you can, and hate to waste time learning the hard way, I'd highly recommend choosing a different concept.

If not, I say build it and have a blast!

[Darkrok]

The one thing you get out of going pale master that you couldn't get otherwise is self-healing while in undead forms. You could look at the DC bonuses of lich form as making up for splashing rogue as well...not to mention you'll have the highest natural search/disarm you can get without spending enhancements/feats. I think you'd end up having more trouble with spell resist than the saves at that point...can't really make up for those two lost levels in that regard.

[exactor_mortis]

If you're the kind of person who strives to build the very best character you can, and hate to waste time learning the hard way, I'd highly recommend choosing a different concept.

If not, I say build it and have a blast!

Well, if there weren't +3 LR's available, I'd agree.

Theoretically, you could go with the 2 Rogue/X Wizard plan until you get to the point you're not enjoying it anymore (if ever, my Wiz/Rog is still a blast to play, especially solo) and then dump the Rogue part and swap over to pure-classness.

[Phidius]

Well, if there weren't +3 LR's available, I'd agree.

Theoretically, you could go with the 2 Rogue/X Wizard plan until you get to the point you're not enjoying it anymore (if ever, my Wiz/Rog is still a blast to play, especially solo) and then dump the Rogue part and swap over to pure-classness.

Well, considering how often we have to use LRs to fix builds as a result of Turbine changing the game underneath us, it would be more enjoyable to not plan on using one because of choices that I made.

I agree with how much fun Wiz/Rogs are to play. I've got several myself. I just didn't choose Drow or Pale Master for any of them.

[Phidius]

The one thing you get out of going pale master that you couldn't get otherwise is self-healing while in undead forms. You could look at the DC bonuses of lich form as making up for splashing rogue as well...not to mention you'll have the highest natural search/disarm you can get without spending enhancements/feats. I think you'd end up having more trouble with spell resist than the saves at that point...can't really make up for those two lost levels in that regard.

Except WF Wizards get awesome self healing from level 1 (level 2 if splashing 2 rogue). At any level in the game, self healing from being WF > self healing from being PM.

[ArichValtrahn]

The 18/2 Wiz/ro build is great until you get to 15/2 and realize no one will take you in their shroud group because you dont have wail. At end game, there is really no reason for an arcane to have trap skills. You will have plenty or pure rogues or ranger splits with rogue skills to handle traps. Assuming you arent just running through them on normal/hard or ressing through them.

[exactor_mortis]

Well, considering how often we have to use LRs to fix builds as a result of Turbine changing the game underneath us, it would be more enjoyable to not plan on using one because of choices that I made.

I agree with how much fun Wiz/Rogs are to play. I've got several myself. I just didn't choose Drow or Pale Master for any of them.

Mine is a Drow/PM. Much fun is had. I'm addicted to charm/command undead, and the Knight does enough aggro to hold attention on the mob while I plink away at it's back with backstabbing attacks.

I know at some point, I'll have to LR out the impurities, but for now I'm good with it.

[Nexicus]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Nexel 
Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Drow Female
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 164
Spell Points: 1543 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 18
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         20                    28
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
[COLOR=silver]Balance               4                     4
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         4                    28
Diplomacy             4                     4
Disable Device        9                    27
Haggle                0                     0
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  4                     4
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  4                     4
Listen                3                    17
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             4                    17
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                5                     9
Search                9                    28.5
Spot                  3                    19
Swim                  4                     4
Tumble                4                     4
Use Magic Device      4                    16.5


Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I
Enhancement: Summon Skeletal Knight


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Knight
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Summon Blackbone Archer
Enhancement: Summon Skeleton Archer


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting III


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Casting
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master III
Enhancement: Summon Frostmarrow Knight

I decided to muck around on Char creator and i eventually got to this..

Please tell me possitives/negetives of this build and how i could improve it.
Also would people just reply on what i ask not, going on about how people wont invite me into a group etc.. thanks

[ArichValtrahn]

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         20                    28
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    10

I went with 16 con and 18 int, but good enough IMO.

[Ryiah]

I'm pretty sure I disagree with a few of the things said in this topic. First, the early suggestion of two-weapon fighting and a mid-range dexterity. Why? Its absolutely worthless at high levels on a wizard. My 2 rogue/18 wizard easily handles traps with a D20 +60 popping up without using rogue skill enhancements or rogue skill boost. If you're doing it for reflex save, get Insightful Reflexes instead. In the end you'll get a far higher reflex save from that than you'd get from having a mid-range dexterity.

Second, why have any melee combat ability at all. TWF? Really? Maybe if this were a battle caster it would be appropriate. But not for a character that is primarily casting at higher levels. As far as I can tell, that's why at least one build has strength. But even then that's pretty useless because your BAB won't be high enough to land hits on anything but casual or normal beyond level 3. Don't forget too that with a low BAB and the recent nerf to TWF that your TWF speed will be abysmally low. Might as well go either sword and board or two-handed.

My main is a drow rogue/wizard with points spent only in intelligence and constitution. Having a low constitution score is a bad idea on a wizard. You'll want to try to push it as high as you can after you push intelligence up. You won't need dexterity for traps, intelligence will suffice. Nor will you need it for reflex saves, Insightful Reflexes will suffice for that too. You won't need strength as you won't be swinging weapons at later levels nor will you need to worry about being able to carry enough - you'll run out of slots long before you hit the weight limit.

Human is a good choice, I tried messing with the planner real quick and 28 point build will get you a 17 in both constitution and intelligence. Most people wouldn't recommend an odd number, but this is a human so you'll be able to put one human stat enhancement in each of the primary stats.

For skill points, just make sure to keep your search, disarm, and UMD maxed out. You don't need to emphasize on open locks because there's no penalty for failing. You just keep trying until you get it. You probably won't want to take the second level of rogue until you're able to put points into open lock along with the other three. You could always push when you take that rogue level earlier if you intend to eat a tome. A +1 intelligence tome would push it four levels earlier. At that point go ahead and take rogue and fill in whatever skills you were neglecting. You could always just ignore open locks up until this point to keep UMD high.

Don't be afraid to get your rogue level earlier than you get firewall. There may seem to be a lot of advantages to taking it earlier, but in the end survivability is nice too. That evasion means you'll be saving out of a lot of damage. If you find that you aren't being hurt or killed much, go ahead for firewall. But remember, courtesy of Update 5, when you die your firewalls will all disappear. So it doesn't help any if you can't stay alive.

[Nexicus]

So the general jist im getting is go human.. will human end up with the same overall stats??, basically ide liked to know what the good thing is about going human over drow and whats the cons about it thanks ^^
(Srry for dragging this on i'm just trying to get a good build.)

[GhoulsTouch]

Here you go...33 disable is a nice number. It's specced for both enchantment and necromancy. Plus it has skill boost...oooh pretty devices....*yark* Be careful however your concentration is low. You can redistribute some points such as open locks if you like...or stay in the back of the bus. That's where all the fun is anyway.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(1 Rogue \ 19 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 189
Spell Points: 1677 
BAB: 9\9\14
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 10
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            12                    14
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         20                    28
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             10                    10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                     6
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         2                    13
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device        9                    33
Haggle                4                     4
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  5                     6
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  3                     3
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         5                     6
Open Lock             5                    20
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                5                     9
Search                9                    30
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  3                     3
Tumble                5                     6
Use Magic Device      4                    23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 17 (Wizard)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 19 (Wizard)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I
Enhancement: Summon Skeleton Archer
Enhancement: Summon Skeletal Knight
Enhancement: Summon Skeletal Mage

[Nexicus]

I do like your idea Ghouls, but will me waiting till lvl 11 to take necromancy still let me get wraith mode ( forgot what its called ) , also why the spell focus on enchantment?

The reason i wanted to get 2 rogue lvls is for evasion because its better to not be hit at all then to be hit with a few extra hp's.

[GhoulsTouch]

I do like your idea Ghouls, but will me waiting till lvl 11 to take necromancy still let me get wraith mode ( forgot what its called ) , also why the spell focus on enchantment?

The reason i wanted to get 2 rogue lvls is for evasion because its better to not be hit at all then to be hit with a few extra hp's.

You won't get wraith form until level 13, because of the rogue level...normally at 12 you would get it. With two rogue levels you would wait until 14th level.
This lowers max DC by one not two on your spells which you compensate partially for with the school focuses and penetration enhancements. Having high intel definately helps alot. And as most can vouch for, if you keep good defenses up as far as energy resists then evasion is not so much a priority. When you come across something that needs evasion to conquer and there is no way around it...let a stronger rogue build handle it.

[exactor_mortis]

I'm pretty sure I disagree with a few of the things said in this topic. First, the early suggestion of two-weapon fighting and a mid-range dexterity. Why? Its absolutely worthless at high levels on a wizard. My 2 rogue/18 wizard easily handles traps with a D20 +60 popping up without using rogue skill enhancements or rogue skill boost. If you're doing it for reflex save, get Insightful Reflexes instead. In the end you'll get a far higher reflex save from that than you'd get from having a mid-range dexterity.

Second, why have any melee combat ability at all. TWF? Really? Maybe if this were a battle caster it would be appropriate. But not for a character that is primarily casting at higher levels. As far as I can tell, that's why at least one build has strength. But even then that's pretty useless because your BAB won't be high enough to land hits on anything but casual or normal beyond level 3. Don't forget too that with a low BAB and the recent nerf to TWF that your TWF speed will be abysmally low. Might as well go either sword and board or two-handed.

If you're referring to my post, I have a few comments.

TWF: You said "it's absolutely worthless at high levels on a wizard", and while that may be true, I specifically said "(knowing you'll end up dumping it later through a feat exchange when you get to the point you're not meleeing all that much)". Now my rogue/wizard hits quite well beyond level three. Not sure what experiences you've had, but I can tell you as recently as last night, I was TWF-ing for the majority of my damage and cutting the mobs down pretty handily...at zero mana cost.

I'm quite certain that at some point I'm going to need to stop meleeing...and I've no hesitation about popping a LR+3 to swap over to full on Wizard at that point. There may well be an intermediate period where I still want the rogue skills, but not interested in melee all that much. LR works just swimmingly for that.

I built my character counting on, and expecting to, LR at least once, to enjoy a fairly strong and fun early game and a fairly strong and fun endgame. After all, the entire game isn't spent at high levels and you can LR easily enough as needed.