The Game is both Too Easy and Too Hard--I might have an idea about this (and more)

[tenketsu2]

First, my premise. The game is both too easy and too hard.

This is a concept I was introduced to in Star Trek Online, where the forums were blazing with "This game is so easy you can AFK and win" and "This game is ungodly hard and no one can play it" threads, with each type infested with the other kind of posters telling the Ops that they were stupid and had no idea what they were talking about. The Devs, in asking for more focused feedback, pointed out that in truth the game might be both--too hard and too easy. That, specifically, some builds/classes/equipment made the game in general very easy and others made it very hard. Also, of course, that some missions (read: Quests) were far harder than their level and others far easier.

I would say that DDO is in exactly this situation. For those with very strong builds and twink gear etc, the game is mostly considerably easier than it thinks it is. For those with newbie builds or paths and "first character" gear, the game is mostly considerably harder than it thinks it is. Those with foreknowledge of what they'll need in a quest also shave a considerable amount of difficulty off of quests.

That's ok, if the game can handle the discrepancy well. Currently, I don't think it does. Casual/Normal/Hard/Elite/Epic is not enough--some characters can't handle certain quests at-level even on Casual, while others can blitz them under-level on Elite. The difficulty range needs to expand.

I think the best way to do it is to throw open the doors entirely. This would be similar to "Epic" difficulty in that it would make every quest in the game a potential "Endgame" quest. It would also mean the Devs can mostly stop worrying about having to try to balance new quests to make them hard enough to challenge the Top end without making them impossibly hard for the Low end. Basically, for every quest, rather than C/N/H/E/E as difficulty settings that modify the level of the quest, simply allow the player to directly pick what level quest they want it to be. Want to run Enter the Kobold as a level 3 quest? Go for it. Want to run Misery's Peak as a level 26 quest? Gotcha covered. How about Reaver's Fate as a level 90 Raid?

Mobs and traps simply need to scale to the level of the quest, something I think they kind've do already. End rewards, again, are already supposed to scale to the level of the quest, and special End Rewards (or loot drops) can simply be turned off if the level of the quest is more than X (insert reasonable number here) levels below the minimum level of the gear or the original level of the quest. Scale XP as well. Similarly, Epic tokens/fragments and such can simply be flagged to only drop in quests of X level or higher.

Vets are often complaining about how the Devs are wasting all this time designing low level quests while the higher levels have almost no quests at all. Well, now there'd be no more high and low-level quests--simply a smorgasbord of choices. Play what you feel like playing, no matter what level your character is. And, as to the original point of this post, it also allows you to fine-tune the quest to the abilities of the group, allowing you to find the sweet point of being challenged without being overwhelmed--no matter how powerful or weak the group is. This also means that every single mechanical advantage can be potentially useful, as I'm sure screenshots of particularly high level quest completions would become another goal for guilds to test themselves with. High scores, so to speak.

Honestly, most of the framework (scalable enemies and traps) should already be there. If not, it would take a fair bit of work to put the framework into place, but from there it would be pretty easy. And I think the benefits would be enormous. I know that, personally, being able to play my favorite quests instead of being forced to play the ones in my level range, would dramatically increase my enjoyment of the game. This game has lots of fantasticly designed quests, let's show them off.

[MrCow]

The biggest issue with this is that not all quests are created equally. Scaling in this manner would have a huge impact on some quests and next to no impact on others. Quests like Hold for Reinforcements would be an absolute nightmare to try and accomplish scaled up beyond a certain level while Stealthy Repossession is pretty much the same exact quest once you obtain 6 uses of invisibility regardless of level.

[tenketsu2]

The biggest issue with this is that not all quests are created equally. Scaling in this manner would have a huge impact on some quests and next to no impact on others. Quests like Hold for Reinforcements would be an absolute nightmare to try and accomplish scaled up beyond a certain level while Stealthy Repossession is pretty much the same exact quest once you obtain 6 uses of invisibility regardless of level.

It's true, there will very likely be some hiccups. However, I see it as not quite as fragile as that--specifically, that scaled up monsters would get boosts to their skills (such as Listen and Spot) and maybe even See Invisibility, etc, in addition to straight stat/spell boosts. Kind've like how Epic monsters get lots of extra immunities, but more spread out (say, at level 20 they get X, at 25 they get Y, and level 43 they get Z). NPCs should also scale, so Coyle might still be a pushover, but not level 4 in a level 30 quest for instance.

But even then, I'm still ok with that--as mentioned, we already have quests that are far easier or harder than they should be. If we can't eliminate all of that, and just smooth out most of it, I still consider that a big step forward.

[THOTHdha]

simply allow the player to directly pick what level quest they want it to be.

Honestly, most of the framework (scalable enemies and traps) should already be there. If not, it would take a fair bit of work to put the framework into place, but from there it would be pretty easy.

I don't think you really understand the situation. I know that I am not intimately familiar with how DDO is coded, but from my experience in other projects this sounds like an absolute nightmare.

As you've already stated, a large part of the feeling of 'this game is too easy' comes from the way that players who 'know the game' are able to cherry pick certain quests to grind for very fast, very easy XP. Without hand tailoring of quests any kind of scalable content such as this is going to open itself up to quests that are unintentionally easy, as well as some that scale to be much harder than intended, at certain levels.

I agree with your concept. It would make a very interesting idea for an MMO. I'm just rather skeptical as to how feasible it would be to modify DDO as it currently exists to match that.

EDITed to respond to post while typing:

However, I see it as not quite as fragile as that--specifically, that scaled up monsters would get boosts to their skills (such as Listen and Spot) and maybe even See Invisibility, etc, in addition to straight stat/spell boosts. Kind've like how Epic monsters get lots of extra immunities, but more spread out (say, at level 20 they get X, at 25 they get Y, and level 43 they get Z).

That is a very minor part of the difference between mobs at various levels. Simply giving a monster higher to-hit, armor class, chance to notice, immunities, ect. doesn't really do enough to keep the encounter challenging. Higher level encounters throw around a ton of different effects that players just don't have the ability to deal with at lower level. Trying to balance at what level monsters get new abilities for all of the quests in the game would be quite an undertaking.

[geminijester]

I for one really like this idea. I still consider myself a new player and have not experienced all the content I have purchased. My favorite thing about this game is exploring the different areas and dungeons.

[tenketsu2]

I don't think you really understand the situation. I know that I am not intimately familiar with how DDO is coded, but from my experience in other projects this sounds like an absolute nightmare.

Well, in truth, I'm pretty much banking on the system already being mostly in place and just not used to the extent I want, or else that the code is modular enough to allow it to be put in place without having to do truly large amounts of coding. If neither or those are the case, I'm fully aware it's a pipe dream that will never, ever come to fruition.

As you've already stated, a large part of the feeling of 'this game is too easy' comes from the way that players who 'know the game' are able to cherry pick certain quests to grind for very fast, very easy XP. Without hand tailoring of quests any kind of scalable content such as this is going to open itself up to quests that are unintentionally easy, as well as some that scale to be much harder than intended, at certain levels.

I agree with your concept. It would make a very interesting idea for an MMO. I'm just rather skeptical as to how feasible it would be to modify DDO as it currently exists to match that.

EDITed to respond to post while typing:

That is a very minor part of the difference between mobs at various levels. Simply giving a monster higher to-hit, armor class, chance to notice, immunities, ect. doesn't really do enough to keep the encounter challenging. Higher level encounters throw around a ton of different effects that players just don't have the ability to deal with at lower level. Trying to balance at what level monsters get new abilities for all of the quests in the game would be quite an undertaking.

Well again I don't see it working as a hand-designed thing, but modular. And again I'm banking on this probably being how they do it already, mostly. Because I'm pretty sure they don't hand design each individual monster for each individual quest; for instance, each kobold in the Waterworks (aside from bosses) is probably a generic Kobold (class) (CR), all pulled from the same template. This would just be extending that.

Let me give an example.

(Kobold Shaman)
Race: Kobold
Type: Reptilian
Base Stats: 10/12/12/16/16/16

CR 1: +2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2, add Magic Missile
2: +2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2, add Niac's Cold Ray
3: +2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2, add Cure Light Wounds
...
16: +3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3, add True Seeing (ability), add Mass Hold Monster, remove Hold Monster
...
37: +6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6, add Heavy Fortification, add Immunity to Death Effects

Etc etc. Now clearly this isn't to show the specifics, but the concept--come up with the base creature, a formula for it's stats to improve by level, and then pick certain levels to add static bonuses (like permanent True Seeing or what have you), add special abilities (like spells or ki strikes etc), and remove obsolete abilities that would just waste the creature's time.

Again, there may still be hiccups and difficulty mismatches, but I honestly think that situation would be improved rather than made worse.

[therobb]

I like the concept. I agree that it would be nice to have more content available at high levels. However, I'm not sure this suggestion could be implemented in a balanced manner that wouldn't be easily exploited.

For example, I'd love to quickly level up a new toon by gradually increasing the difficulty & xp on a few select quests. Can I run the Kobold's New Ringleader (a level 2 quest that takes 2 to 3 minutes at level) on level 10 for a 5 minute completion of a level 10 quest? If I'm getting level 10 XP & loot, sign me up.

Once I get a sorcerer up to level 8 and pick up wall of fire, I'll just run the undead quests over and over, gradually increasing the level until I cap. I won't have any actual play skills at cap, but I'll be awesome at spamming one spell.

On the other hand, I really want to get into the Abbot raid quickly. I could run the flagging quests on casual...nah that will take too long. Let me just adjust that quest level down a little...level 1 sounds about right. Or- I want that Torc from the Demon Queen. Let's farm it on level 1.

[tenketsu2]

I like the concept. I agree that it would be nice to have more content available at high levels. However, I'm not sure this suggestion could be implemented in a balanced manner that wouldn't be easily exploited.

For example, I'd love to quickly level up a new toon by gradually increasing the difficulty & xp on a few select quests. Can I run the Kobold's New Ringleader (a level 2 quest that takes 2 to 3 minutes at level) on level 10 for a 5 minute completion of a level 10 quest? If I'm getting level 10 XP & loot, sign me up.

This is really just an example of the problem that already exists, however--that some quests have far better XP/Time ratios than others. Especially in this case where KNR's design is being exploited by that crate. So, I don't see this as an issue with what I'm saying so much as a separate discussion about poorly rewarding quests needing to give more XP/loot and excellently rewarding ones less. But, beyond that, you would still be subject to ransack and a repetition XP penalty (although probably adjusted for a level range rather than individual levels).

Once I get a sorcerer up to level 8 and pick up wall of fire, I'll just run the undead quests over and over, gradually increasing the level until I cap. I won't have any actual play skills at cap, but I'll be awesome at spamming one spell.

It's pretty much already entirely possible to level up off of just Undead quests as it stands, so that's no change. You can also simply level up (albeit slowly) by just running under-leveled quests on Casual, by and large. But if that's what you want to do, I don't see why you should be prevented from doing it--if it's fun for you, great, and if not, the only person you're cheating is yourself.

On the other hand, I really want to get into the Abbot raid quickly. I could run the flagging quests on casual...nah that will take too long. Let me just adjust that quest level down a little...level 1 sounds about right. Or- I want that Torc from the Demon Queen. Let's farm it on level 1.

If that's really seen as an issue, flagging for Raids can be set the same way as I already suggested special rewards and loot could be--only happens if you run it at level X or higher. And yeah, already covered the Raid Loot issue above, but I guess you missed it. Understandable, as I practically wrote a book.

[therobb]

Don't get me wrong; if it could be balanced, I think it could be be a great way to refresh old content and have some fun. For example- I've never set foot in Three Barrel Cove on any of my toons. If I could run it on one of my capped toons at an appropriate level, I'm sure it would be fun.

It doesn't sit quite right with me to have level 1 quests with beholders and level 20 quests with giant rats, but I could get over that if it made more high-level quests available.

[tenketsu2]

Don't get me wrong; if it could be balanced, I think it could be be a great way to refresh old content and have some fun. For example- I've never set foot in Three Barrel Cove on any of my toons. If I could run it on one of my capped toons at an appropriate level, I'm sure it would be fun.

It doesn't sit quite right with me to have level 1 quests with beholders and level 20 quests with giant rats, but I could get over that if it made more high-level quests available.

Again, there would likely be hiccups that had to be smoothed out (what change doesn't have those?), but I really doubt they'd be insurmountable. Personally I think the result would be an incredible boost to the fun of the game.

[grodon9999]

It's gear and build. On my first toon when i could barely get a +5 holy weapon and had a bad-build the vale/reavers/IQ were very difficult and Amrath impossible. Gear her up some and GR, it's not that hard anymore.

Second toon solos Amrath stuff, I won't say it's easy but it's not that hard with the right build and gear.

The AI is SO stupid in this game and that's where the 'easiness' comes in. Two of the most effective spells int he game, Firwall and Blade barrier, are easy-buttons for most of the content.

[Antheal]

How about, instead of having a selectable 1-20 level range for a quest which could require lots of individual monster coding, how about incrementing them in steps of 4 levels per tier?

So you can select to run a quest at level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16 or 20.

That way, instead of having to write code for the same monster 20 times, you only need to write code 6 times per monster.