Boost the dps of sword and board configs!!

[psteen1]

Dear Developers,

I love your game but dislike how ineffective my warhammer/shield fighter is compared to a two-weapon fighter. Sure it was fine from levels 1-12, but at level 14ish and up it takes me 2-3x longer to kill things than TWF or THF. I realize that a shield comes with other benefits, but there should be someway to boost sword/board DPS without making it too powerful. I mean, NO experienced players use a sword/board configuration anymore, and that is the classic D&D character. The build just doesn't work. And it needs to be fixed. Here are my ideas for update 6..
1) Create a feat or two that allow for auto shield bashing when attacking. Make it similar to the update 5 TWF- there is a chance for the shield bash to activate depending on your enhancements/feats. It is too difficult to switch between attacking and shield bashing as the controls are currently setup. Attacking and shield bashing need to be integrated more seamlessly.
2) Give shields more offensive boosts. 1d6 bashing is pretty worthless, and is hard to find.... and only a very small handful of rare named shields have anything like fire damage.
3) Give shields the ability to cause stunning blows and knockdowns (trips), like they do in Dragon Age: Origins. Maybe you don't want shields to do damage, but you could at least allow them to be activated for these specialized attacks.
4) Provide enhancements for offensive sword/board configs, rather than just defensive sword/board configs.

Just my thoughts. I realize shields also come with DR and AC boosts, so I'm not expecting sword/board configs to do crazy damage on par with TWF and THF. But they should at least be viable builds, darnit.

[psteen1]

Ok, here is my idea thought out a little more clearly, with the help of a like-minded friend. For the way the new TWF mechanism is with update 5, it makes a lot of sense to work toward a feat progression that allows a shield bash to "proc/trigger" just like an offhand TWF.

Here would be one possibile feat progression for a sword/board offensive DPS:
1. Improved Shield Bash (can actively bash and get shield benefit at same time, required for Offhand Weapon-Shield)
2. Weapon Focus-Bludgeoning (required for Offhand Weapon-Shield)
3. Offhand Weapon-Shield (shield now functions as an offhand weapon, total of +20% to trigger/proc offhand/shield bash, STR required = 15, Dex Required = 13.... so automatic bashing is enabled)
4. Greater Shield Bash (Similar to improved TWF, total of +40% to trigger/proc offhand/shield bash),
5. Superior Shield Bash (Similar to superior TWF, +60% to proc/trigger offhand shield bash).

I don't see any prob with this progression as it essentially uses the current U5 rules. Just add in the Shield as an offhand weapon possibility and away you go (use same shield bash animation, just couple it with another weapon). Basically the Stalwart defender now offers an intimitank option who can go DPS TWF(shield) when needed. I think it would be a very welcome change and a lot of people would try it. Add in Shields with the "STUN" feat too (and give shields an option as a "weighted" weapon, giving the Stalwart Defender/Intimitank a possibility as crowd control). Add in Improved Bludgeoning Criticals and a Warhammer wielding Intimitank can now be a critting machine with a good AC due to shield feats/enhances, and never put down his shield! One caveat would be that to receive the full shield blocking damage reduction, the player would have to actively block. When not actively blocking, the shield still gives the current reduced DR. Otherwise it would be too powerful, obviously. Also, because shields are only 1d6, all of the extra shield bashes wouldn't be overpowered- you would still do more damage with TWF and THF, as it should be. And the proc/trigger percentage could never get as high as a true TWF.

[Qindark]

actually S&B builds did get a boost with U5, but with only 2 weapons: Dwarven axe and Bastard sword. Until TWF becomes viable (low levels don't do well under the new rules) my dwarven tempest ranger is swinging 1 dwarven axe and carrying a shield.

[psteen1]

my understanding is that the bastard sword's and dwarven axe's new ability to do glancing blows does not work with a shield. You need to have an open hand. So this update still doesn't help sword/board players.

[Qindark]

my understanding is that the bastard sword's and dwarven axe's new ability to do glancing blows does not work with a shield. You need to have an open hand. So this update still doesn't help sword/board players.

well, it's working at this point. I suppose that it'll go away in a future update.

[Dawnsfire]

my understanding is that the bastard sword's and dwarven axe's new ability to do glancing blows does not work with a shield. You need to have an open hand. So this update still doesn't help sword/board players.

Release notes sayith:

Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes are now as if they were two handed weapons for the purposes of Glancing Blows when they are the only weapon wielded by a proficient user. (Weapon and Shield or Single Weapon styles, but not when Dual Wielding.) Feats or enhancements that affect Glancing Blows (such as the Two Handed Fighting chain, or Great Weapon Aptitude) will also modify these weapons. They are still treated as one handed weapons for all other purposes, such as strength bonus to damage.

My bold and redish type color for emphasis...

[psteen1]

this info on the glancing blows is interesting, but doesn't really solve the DPS sword/board problem except with these two weapon types. any thoughts on the initial posts?

[William_the_Bat]

People who use shields do so with the intent of reducing damage output for the benefit of greater protection.

The fact that this trade off is often not beneficial given the current game dynamics is what makes S&B stink.

The reason it is often not beneficial is two-fold:

1. extra defense only helps if you have agro, and there are 5 other people in the party competing with you for agro, and for DPS tanking, any TWF or THF will be better at it.

2. the AC vs attack bonus mechanic of the d20 system was successfully implemented with the iterative attack penalty in pen and paper DnD, meaning because some of the attacks would be made at a big penalty, even a small increase in AC would be beneficial by helping mitigate -some- of the attacks. In DDO there is no iterative attack penalty, so AC below the "threshold" level (where the monsters need to roll higher than a 2 to hit you) is literally meaningless. When fighting a monster with an attack bonus of 43, a 40 ac is mathematically no better than a 12.

This is why shields stink. Not because trading offense for defense is a bad idea.. though you wouldn't want the whole party doing it, but because you sacrifice offense.. and get no benefit at all from the shield because your AC still isn't high enough.

If shields could provide a little more.. either AC that continues to scale up after level 8 so we could get post-threshold AC without grinding out a load of specific quest items, or some passive non-blocking DR, they might be made to be useful again, and keep with the idea of the shield being defense.

Oh, and a better shield bash mechanic, such as incorporating a stunning blow or knockdown, would be even cooler. I wouldn't want it to go off in the middle of my attack chain, often I want to kill, not bash, but being able to spam trip, stunning blow, and shield bash knockdown would be pretty sweet.

[HallowedOne]

S&B isn't meant for DPS.

That beeing said, there should be more improvements towards defense for S&B. It is sad to see an Exploiter with the same AC as an Fighter with heavy armor and Shield and beeing capable of so much more damage.

Not only increasing AC would be a better solution. Maybe increasing passive DR as well. Like, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery aren't tha used because there are few times where one will turtle up so their comrades can flank the enemy. Maybe granting 3/- to passive DR wearing shields would be ideal IMO.

It's not bad request, since monsters at end game are doing +40 dmg per swing and on epic +70. A little love for the ones that will take damage for the party would be appreciated.

[Dawnsfire]

this info on the glancing blows is interesting, but doesn't really solve the DPS sword/board problem except with these two weapon types. any thoughts on the initial posts?

I don't really know what to say that hasn't been said in the many forum posts up until now. S&B has largely been panned as only for AC tanks and only when AC tanks are tanking. I think glancing blows were added for bastard swords to actually get someone to use them. D. axes were probably added because the majority of AC tanks are dwarves.

I personally prefer the idea of having the fighting feats most tanks actually take (TWF and THF) actually effect S&B. TWF could actually be used (for example) to occasionally proc off-hand shield bashes and THF could produce glancing blows. Of course then the devs would have to find another reason to get people to use bastard swords.

I would prefer not to add a third type of combat (a bash line) because S&B (due to the additional defensive benefits of a shield) should never be anywhere near the DPS potential of THF and TWF (imho). Almost all combat tank types take an offensive line because this game has very few places a tank is needed. Both ideas would generate threat which is very important in the few places threat is a necessary thing. AC isn't entirely useless in this game but it is very hard to make it useful past level 10ish. So I don't really see a reason to make them spend a bunch of feats for another fighting line.

[Yaga_Nub]

my understanding is that the bastard sword's and dwarven axe's new ability to do glancing blows does not work with a shield. You need to have an open hand. So this update still doesn't help sword/board players.

That's incorrect. It should (and does) work either with a shield or with an open hand.

[Rheebus]

S&B isn't meant for DPS.

That beeing said, there should be more improvements towards defense for S&B. It is sad to see an Exploiter with the same AC as an Fighter with heavy armor and Shield and beeing capable of so much more damage.

Not only increasing AC would be a better solution. Maybe increasing passive DR as well. Like, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery aren't tha used because there are few times where one will turtle up so their comrades can flank the enemy. Maybe granting 3/- to passive DR wearing shields would be ideal IMO.

It's not bad request, since monsters at end game are doing +40 dmg per swing and on epic +70. A little love for the ones that will take damage for the party would be appreciated.

Shields do give you a benefit to your AC, but most High AC builds tend to go robes, High DEX, High WIS(+1 monk level) and possibly cast the shield spell (+4 shield bonus) with a 10th level wand, along with other AC gear that anyone can use whether you carry a shield or not. The shield should dramatically increase your AC imo, but currently it probably hurts AC more than it helps in many situations because of the DEX cap most shields have.

The real benefit of carrying a shield is their damage reduction (dr) potential. Go ahead and hit me, but when you do 20+ points are reduced when I am actively blocking. Toons that use shields must invest in the intimidate skill and/or hate generating enhancements/gear to keep aggro. Unfortunately, most of the dr you receive from a shield is only applied when blocking and not attacking. This makes the intimidate skill much more useful in most situations when carrying a shield.

I like the idea that shields should have more on-hit proc effects. Currently there are only a few of these (self-cast heal spell with the Levik's Defender), but others could be introduced to make S&B characters more useful in combat when blocking. The stunning idea is good. Paralysis, banishment, disruption, mass healing spells, or even a vorpal killing effect also come to mind.

To gain most benefit from a shield, one must block. Another route is to find or craft guard items that do damage to mobs when they hit you. A nice S&B character with a handful of guards (ring of resonance, bramble casters, shroud-crafted guards) and intimidate can actually do some decent DPS while blocking and not swinging.

[psteen1]

I'm likin' some of these ideas, and hope the devs can address these issues soon. Of course, I like my original idea, because I tend to travel in smaller groups (2-3 people) or even solo, and I like s&b characters but want to be able to actually kill things. I realize that the s&b dps shouldn't approach that of twf or thf, but it seems like the s&b dps isn't even 50% of those strategies. My level 10 twf fighter does 2-3x more damage than my s&b level 15 fighter. go figure.

[Samiusbot]

If you ever have seen a real sword fight when some one is trying to fight with a shield, you will see the shield user using the shield as part of the fighting style. Sometimes they will bash others they throw the shield into the path of the attack and turn the attack away from the defender.

What I would like to see is another feat or group of feats for each size of shield. “Shield Combat”, when using a shield you are proficient with you gain a miss chance that starts out with a small percentage chance with a buckler and become greater with a tower shield. The effect should be applied along with other miss chances. This miss chance does not replace or become replaced by other other miss chances, but work together simultaneously.

Example:
Bucklers 10%
Small shields 20%
Large shields 30%
Tower shield 45%

You have displacement spell on 50% and then a Large Shield 30% Roll for each. If one fails then the attack is blocked.

Give everyone the feat (or feats that correspond to shields they are proficient with) and boom. Maybe even have the feat give a small bonus to damage for the next attack following the shield blocking the attack. This would be taking advantage of the opening gained by turning an attack.

[Lessah]

I love this thread so much I want to divorce my current spouse, marry it and have children with it!

PLEASE for the love of all that is holy, give sword and board some love! I have held fast to my shield all these years in the hopes that one day things will work out for my tanks (who currently get laughed out of the room because they are not high DPS TWF's)

First they make us useless in combat and now they have removed the pally's ability to power up energy cells with holy swords! I have been officially nerfed into the ground.

I certainly hope this is addressed one day.

[emptysands]

I'd rather they increase the aoe range for intimidate, than increase the dps of S&B.

[Pyromaniac]

/not signed. S&B is not DPS, and shouldn't be DPS.

[uhgungawa]

/not signed. S&B is not DPS, and shouldn't be DPS.

Agreed, S&B does need better AC and DR bonuses though.

[vVAnjilaVv]

What they need to do is make AC more viable......aside from that...if ur making a tank that is S&B....ur SUPPOSED to be sacrificing DPS for defense......if u want more DPS...put down the shield and pick up two one-handers or a two hander and turn on your Power Attack.

[psteen1]

the game for s&b is broken, so I suggest doing what is easiest, raising the dps of s&b. if the dev's ever get around to fixing the entire ac and "to hit" system, now that would be amazing. and it will never happen. hopefully it does when ddo2 comes around.