Raid Leader Strategy - PUG shrouds to make "friends"

[The_Great_Samulas]

This last month I've been doing more shrouds than I normally do. I went down to 1-2 a week and concentrated more on epic quests/raids, because my stockpiles of larges were considerable (30 large scales). The ones I was running were often closed groups from specific invites. However, I've been doing them a bit more lately. I don't lead these raids myself anymore on normal difficulty, as they are quite easy, so I've been joining PUGs.

Anyways, I've found that this is a pretty good way of identifying bad/obnoxious players to keep them out of the more challenging raids. This is in conjunction with identifying the good ones as well. I have also noticed you get players that will drop group with little provocation, or just drop after part 4 when they know its a completion run. I've added more toons and guilds to my "friends" list this last month than I have in the previous 3 months. I had a particularly bad sorc last night, that prompted this observation.

Thought I would share this. Seemed a partcularly useful strategy considering you run the shroud anyways. It still is a balancing act between extra time in a PUG shroud vs. meeting new players, but I like meeting new players and it seems you get a different breed in the shroud (maybe its just because I don't put those together myself anymore). I tend to run the PUG shrouds on my healers, as A) I can ensure completion even in bad groups almost all of the time, whereas you can't on DPS, caster, or bard spots and B) you can wait to the end to join and not have to wait at all to get started.

I hope this doesn't sound too elitist, but I've found my enjoyment of the game is enhanced by an up-to-date "friends" list.

[Yoduus]

not all players show their true selves during a typical run of the mill shroud though, i for one hardly ever go wash my hands during shroud, just a thought

[Tobril]

I was hoping this would be a guide for speeding/smoothing PUG shrouds...oh well.

It would be nice if you did start leading PUG shrouds.

Right now it's like pulling teeth to convince people to not take forever.

Buff-fests at every part, secondary casters (rangers/paladins) won't help out to speed buffing, everyone wants GH, etc...

Typical time now is ~33-44 minutes.

It would be really nice to get some help trying to speed up these daffodil-sniffing contests.

[k1ngp1n]

I was hoping this would be a guide for speeding/smoothing PUG shrouds...oh well.

It would be nice if you did start leading PUG shrouds.

Right now it's like pulling teeth to convince people to not take forever.

Buff-fests at every part, secondary casters (rangers/paladins) won't help out to speed buffing, everyone wants GH, etc...

Typical time now is ~33-44 minutes.

It would be really nice to get some help trying to speed up these daffodil-sniffing contests.

This. A few runs ago I actually had a cleric demand to spam off Spell Resistance. *Sigh*

Part 1: Jump pot, go - songs, haste, on portal 1, gh if ya got it otherwise just roll.
Part 2: Deathward, Haste, go - Fire resists/FoM while gathering, haste again.
Part 3: dont shrine, just go
Part 4: Poison pot, Fire resist, FoM passed, go... haste and songs, rage on the first mob group, go.
Part 5: Go straight into melee, deathward, haste, fom passed, poison pot - none of this gathering/kiting bs.

Then they get whiny when I tell the bards/wizzies to stop passing blur for 4/5. *sigh*

[mudfud]

I've found that shroud normal just doesn't cut it anymore for me. Most times now we do Hard with a few Elite runs now a week. Same completion time as normal, communicate what's needed. For elite make sure of a DR passing weapon.
That's the way I've found that really shows what pugs know there stuff and which ones like that they do.
The ones that just hit the lfm and whine when they enter and see we are on elite most times can't cut it. But once we complete they see how it's as easy as normal.

[mws2970]

This. A few runs ago I actually had a cleric demand to spam off Spell Resistance. *Sigh*

Part 1: Jump pot, go - songs, haste, on portal 1, gh if ya got it otherwise just roll.
Part 2: Deathward, Haste, go - Fire resists/FoM while gathering, haste again.
Part 3: dont shrine, just go
Part 4: Poison pot, Fire resist, FoM passed, go... haste and songs, rage on the first mob group, go.
Part 5: Go straight into melee, deathward, haste, fom passed, poison pot - none of this gathering/kiting bs.

Then they get whiny when I tell the bards/wizzies to stop passing blur for 4/5. *sigh*

You don't kite long enough for the casters to get their SP back in the pools in pt 5?

[Quikster]

You don't kite long enough for the casters to get their SP back in the pools in pt 5?

Kite? WT_heck is Kite?

No, if two healers 1 holds mana till harry drops and heals then, while the other regens if needed.

Caster should have most of their mana when harry drops. I usually have a caster pull the elemental out of the group of mobs and take it to a pool. They can regen mana between polar rays or while letting the earthy cook in a fw. Then they can debuff/cloud if needed and dump their mana, they can regen when out.

The whole regen while kiting thing came from the old days when harry was only at half health when the pools disappeared, and only 1 person could use a pool at a time. Now none of that is needed. Level 20 groups with decent weapons and pres should be able to take him down in a reasonable amount of time.

[Tobril]

You don't kite long enough for the casters to get their SP back in the pools in pt 5?

It’s not necessary.


Secondary casters can pass out freedom/fire as needed and everyone should be able to handle poison on their own.

That keeps the healers from having to do anything except prayer and maybe mass protection.

Haste/rage/songs during the fighting.


You should be able to get that all done before harry pops out.


DPS fights, casters cloudkill/exhaust if you like and then empty their blue bar, healers heal. (crazy healers like me can go in if they like, just be careful and don’t die or you’ll never hear the end of it)


Then your goal is to kill him before your first madstone proc wears off.


Now the trick is to get PUGs to do it like this.

[Quikster]

I've found that shroud normal just doesn't cut it anymore for me. Most times now we do Hard with a few Elite runs now a week. Same completion time as normal, communicate what's needed. For elite make sure of a DR passing weapon.
That's the way I've found that really shows what pugs know there stuff and which ones like that they do.
The ones that just hit the lfm and whine when they enter and see we are on elite most times can't cut it. But once we complete they see how it's as easy as normal.

Last time I pugged out spots on elite shroud, Me hex and Minari finished (like did pt 4 and pt 5) while the rest of the puggers where soul stones lmao. Its much faster to three man normal than eltie

[mws2970]

Kite? WT_heck is Kite?

No, if two healers 1 holds mana till harry drops and heals then, while the other regens if needed.

Caster should have most of their mana when harry drops. I usually have a caster pull the elemental out of the group of mobs and take it to a pool. They can regen mana between polar rays or while letting the earthy cook in a fw. Then they can debuff/cloud if needed and dump their mana, they can regen when out.

The whole regen while kiting thing came from the old days when harry was only at half health when the pools disappeared, and only 1 person could use a pool at a time. Now none of that is needed. Level 20 groups with decent weapons and pres should be able to take him down in a reasonable amount of time.

As you know, I wasn't around in the old days when you had to walk up hill both ways with no 30% striders while fighting mobs and Harry with nothing but Silver Flame clubs! Heck, I bet all you had for armor was +5 FP! :P

[Quikster]

As you know, I wasn't around in the old days when you had to walk up hill both ways with no 30% striders while fighting mobs and Harry with nothing but Silver Flame clubs! Heck, I bet all you had for armor was +5 FP! :P

Most wore robes or went naked.

I wasnt trying to be an old geezer about it, just trying to explain why it came about, and why its not needed. Old habits are hard to break. You should have seen the difficulty it took to get us to pull all 4 red names to the south together in pt 2. It used to be if the devil or orthon came down to south central people started calling party wipe and ddoord out. It took several minutes sometimes to get the devl/orthon/cat to the the north west, the elemental to ne then the other two to the south to put behind the wall and get a firewall on them.

Then we had to hope the healer on devil didnt get seen or the two taking devil might wipe. Then if that happened we had to hope somebody had sense enough not to pull devil while trying to raise the dead.

/Sigh it used to be a real fiasco.

[k1ngp1n]

You don't kite long enough for the casters to get their SP back in the pools in pt 5?

Nope. If I'm on my cleric and have any ability to manipulate the pace or stategy of the run, I call straight into melee. While they're beating down at the altar, I'm in the pools tossing FoMs. If Kasquik is there, I toss a deathward first. When Harry pops I'm out and at it. I don't expect that in most pugs when I'm on melee though 'cause most clerics lose it (sometimes literally) when I suggest that they not be at 100% and it'll be OK.

It isn't meant to be elitist or anything either. Its just that 20 minute Shrouds are addictive.

[Quikster]

Nope. If I'm on my cleric and have any ability to manipulate the pace or stategy of the run, I call straight into melee, while they're beating down at the altar, I'm in the pools tossing FoMs. If Kasquik is there, I toss a deathward first. When Harry pops I'm out and at it. I don't expect that in most pugs when I'm on melee though 'cause most clerics lose it (sometimes literally) when I suggest that they not be at 100% and it'll be OK.

How about waiting for the caster to fill up in the pool in pt 3, then he gets one shoted as soon as harry drops in pt 4. Well now that was time well spent

[mws2970]

Heh, I know you weren't but I just had to go there.

Actually, I'd like to get in a speed run with you or Shile sometime to see how it's done so I can speed up some of the pokey pugs I have gotten in to. Although, reading this does give me a general idea and I do self buff everything I can. Still, that doesn't seem to stop people from giving me poison or GH despite the fact I make it known I have those already taken care of.

[mws2970]

Nope. If I'm on my cleric and have any ability to manipulate the pace or stategy of the run, I call straight into melee. While they're beating down at the altar, I'm in the pools tossing FoMs. If Kasquik is there, I toss a deathward first. When Harry pops I'm out and at it. I don't expect that in most pugs when I'm on melee though 'cause most clerics lose it (sometimes literally) when I suggest that they not be at 100% and it'll be OK.

It isn't meant to be elitist or anything either. Its just that 20 minute Shrouds are addictive.

Nah, it's cool. Some people like to run them quick and others like a slower pace. To each his own.

[Quikster]

Heh, I know you weren't but I just had to go there.

Actually, I'd like to get in a speed run with you or Shile sometime to see how it's done so I can speed up some of the pokey pugs I have gotten in to. Although, reading this does give me a general idea and I do self buff everything I can. Still, that doesn't seem to stop people from giving me poison or GH despite the fact I make it known I have those already taken care of.

OH yeah its sop to say," I got all my own buffs" and then get all my own buffs.

Then the caster comes over and gives me GH, Blur, All the ele resists, mass pro, true seeing, Displacement (which wears off before I ever see a mob).

Then the bard comes over and gives me GH, blur, displacement (which wears off before I even see a mob) poison (after he gave me heroes feats earlier) fom, true seeing (off a scroll no less).

Then the cleric comes over and gives me, poison, FoM, all elemental resists, stalwart pact, mass pro, spell resistance, true seeing, pro against evil.

Then the other cleric comes over and gives me poison, Fom, all elemental resists, stalwart pact, mass pro, spell resistance, true seeing, pro against evil.

Then the all go shrine, then they all come over and give me new masses, then they all go jump in the pool.

I get into the next part and the only buffs i actually could have used (extended haste, extended rage, prayer) i have to ask for lol.

[Shiler]

Heh, I know you weren't but I just had to go there.

Actually, I'd like to get in a speed run with you or Shile sometime to see how it's done so I can speed up some of the pokey pugs I have gotten in to. Although, reading this does give me a general idea and I do self buff everything I can. Still, that doesn't seem to stop people from giving me poison or GH despite the fact I make it known I have those already taken care of.

find me in gamer, i should have some toon of timer, and If Quick is on and free he might get lured to do shroud.
One thing that stops people from giving unnecesary buffs is Portal between you and them ;D
SO hop in part 4

[k1ngp1n]

One thing that stops people from giving unnecesary buffs is Portal between you and them ;D
SO hop in part 4

This. After part 3 and you're shrined, call out "I got my own buffs, waiting in 4." And then go through. Most of the slowness of Shrouds is sitting around, waiting for someone to do something. So do something. Never stop moving towards the next objective. Next time you see yourself standing, ask yourself and group why, and could we be doing whatever needs to be done while heading to the next part. It's a state of mind, really.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I guess you guys have one track minds as far as the shroud, but that's ok. I really wasn't looking to discuss the original point all that much, just pass on an observation.

As a raid leader, I find the whole concept of fast shrouds exceedingly boring. I much more enjoy coming up with strategies that will allow me to do shroud on elite with a full PUG with few resources, than shaving a few minutes off of a normal run. I would rather just hang out in a 35-45 minute normal shroud, not lead, and watch some TV or surf the net while doing the shroud than really be involved in the quest. Of course, my views are tainted by the fact that I have more large ingredients than I will likely use in the next 3 months and consequently don't run it all that much.

There isn't alot of strategy for doing things quick as far as I've seen, it simply boils down A) everyone on board knowing the quest, B) covering their own buffs, and C) getting the most DPS you can sustain on the final mob as quickly as you can. Not very exciting in my book, although it may be practical for those wishing to get completions quick. I am more of a journey guy, than a destination guy.

As far as practical advise for those wishing to decrease completion time for the shroud in a PUG situation, I think you will actually have to lead them in the current climate. Your LFM statement should reflect the three important ingredients above. Something like - Speed run: Experts only, SELF buff, Heavy DPS. Keep in mind you won't need an optimal group at all with people that know the shroud (3 casters should be no problem, you don't need a bard, melee classes should be open to all, and you should only need one healer). Avoid demeaning statements in your LFM such as "no noobs" or "don't be an idiot", as this will just give you a bad reputation. That being said you should heckle anyone heavily in the quest when it is obvious they do not belong. The first person who dies should be the object of ridicule the entire rest of the quest and you should come up with duties that they are required to perform. Also they should be referred to as "beyotch". A 15 second speech at the beginning (the second you fill, while everyone is getting to the quest) setting the tone for the run is also advised so everyone is clear what type of run it is.

Hope it helps.

[mws2970]

As a raid leader, I find the whole concept of fast shrouds exceedingly boring. I much more enjoy coming up with strategies that will allow me to do shroud on elite with a full PUG with few resources...

So what are your strategies for allowing you to do an elite Shroud with a full PUG using few resources?