Raid Leader Strategy - PUG shrouds to make "friends"

[The_Great_Samulas]

So what are your strategies for allowing you to do an elite Shroud with a full PUG using few resources?

Ok. Keep in mind this strategy is designed for a PUG group of largely unknowns. In a guild group or channel group, I would use a more traditional strategy. I have successfully employed it over 10 times, with one failure, in a PUG situation (We were sooo close). Resource use by the clerics was typically 0-5 pots (at level 16). No resources should be needed other than a stack of heal scrolls (you probably won't use 1/2 of them) in current 18-20 level groups.

Group makeup: 2 healers, 1 bard, 1 caster (wizard preferred), 4 heavy dps 450+ hp tanks (good hp barbs are nice), 4 ranged DPS types. When forming group verify roles and ability to fullfill before accepting. 3000+ arrows for ranged DPS types.

Part 1: Caster cleans up ahead, 2 tanks with vorpals designated to clean trash at the main portal, everyone else DPS on portals, keep an eye on caster (if he needs help have one of the healers offensively specced go help, or a vorpaling tank).

Part 2: Old method of pulling outsider to Northwest, Elemental/Cat to the NE, rest to wall in the SE is employed.

Part 3: standard

Part 4: Most people die when the devils come in when you first start and between rounds. They do ALOT of damage very quickly to everyone if they bunch up. Advise them to spread out alittle around the crowd control, anyone less than 400 hp should be well out of the crowd control then come into mass heal range cautiously. Four tanks go in with healers designated to spot heal w/ heal spell and scrolls two tanks each (they should be on opposite sides of Arratreikos). This is particularly important as healers often waste mana in mass heals (this is where most of resources are wasted). Caster should never nuke. Caster mana is for crowd control, mass protections, debuffs and killing gnolls. Ranged DPS should be dispersed away from healers, but within range if a spot heal is required (they should be mostly able to keep themselve up). Bard is designated to heal the main healers and caster. The shroud on elite should take 4-9 rounds to complete with this method depending upon DPS. Even if it goes 9 rounds only 1 or 2 pots should be required. If healers don't have empowered healing, they will use more pots.

Part 5: largely the same as 4, only the group should be in range of a pool so healers can use it while healing. Caster should Debuff with waves of exhaustion and cloudkill and cast protection from elements as nukes from Arratreikos go off. Be advised, blades will come out, so ranged should have healing on them and they are responsible for keeping themselves up on this part.

Happy Shrouding.

[Healemup]

A 15 second speech at the beginning ...

Hope it helps.

I will pay 50k plat to anyone that points it out to me in any raid that Sam is leading if he only use a 15 second speech.

And no... with Sam you don't get speed runs...

Love ya buddy!!

[Thelmallen]

A 15 second speech at the beginning...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! !!!! 15 seconds...that's priceless!

edit) Aww, Heal beat me to it! I miss the FC crew, btw! Hopefully I'll have more time to play soon!

[gfunk]

As you know, I wasn't around in the old days when you had to walk up hill both ways with no 30% striders while fighting mobs and Harry with nothing but Silver Flame clubs! Heck, I bet all you had for armor was +5 FP! :P

pretty close....

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182779

[~ToggBott]

how about this, those that have done the raids a million times and know every single position that the enemy is gonna be standing in 10 minutes before we get to them, give those of us who (gasp) have NEVER done the raid, a small break to actually enjoy the quest instead of treating it as a job. (i have one of those already).

yes, i'm in a guild, its a small guild with people who have not played the game for 73.7 years and we dont always know the way around. so if you decide to PUG it with one of us... please be patient... its all new to us

[Quikster]

how about this, those that have done the raids a million times and know every single position that the enemy is gonna be standing in 10 minutes before we get to them, give those of us who (gasp) have NEVER done the raid, a small break to actually enjoy the quest instead of treating it as a job. (i have one of those already).

yes, i'm in a guild, its a small guild with people who have not played the game for 73.7 years and we dont always know the way around. so if you decide to PUG it with one of us... please be patient... its all new to us

And when you see one of the DOZENS of shroud lfms up, feel free to join, or start your own. But if you see a shroud lfm up that says fast run or bring your own buffs, you should prolly stay away from it.

I join plenty of shroud pugs, and just go with the flow the group sets. But when i put up a shroud, its going to be a zerg fest.

[Zombiekenny]

how about this, those that have done the raids a million times and know every single position that the enemy is gonna be standing in 10 minutes before we get to them, give those of us who (gasp) have NEVER done the raid, a small break to actually enjoy the quest instead of treating it as a job. (i have one of those already).

yes, i'm in a guild, its a small guild with people who have not played the game for 73.7 years and we dont always know the way around. so if you decide to PUG it with one of us... please be patient... its all new to us

Make your shroud LFM that says "20 minute buff parties before each part, including part 3. Make sure to introduce each mob to all party members before killing. We are taking it slow."
I will make mine that say "Fast run. Minimal buffing."

[bobbryan2]

Part 2: Old method of pulling outsider to Northwest, Elemental/Cat to the NE, rest to wall in the SE is employed.

I can sorta see why this came about 24 months ago or whatever... but...
Jesus. No.

Pull all 4 to the SE. Much easier on the melees. Easier on the healers. Easier on everyone.

The more you decentralize your DPS, the longer it will take, the harder it will be to heal, etc.

Just split 'em up when you want 'em to die.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I will pay 50k plat to anyone that points it out to me in any raid that Sam is leading if he only use a 15 second speech.

And no... with Sam you don't get speed runs...

Love ya buddy!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! !!!! 15 seconds...that's priceless!

edit) Aww, Heal beat me to it! I miss the FC crew, btw! Hopefully I'll have more time to play soon!

I guess this is another reason I don't lead speed runs. I don't get to hear my glorious voice as much, which is very important. Way more important than saving a few minutes.

I can sorta see why this came about 24 months ago or whatever... but...
Jesus. No.

Pull all 4 to the SE. Much easier on the melees. Easier on the healers. Easier on everyone.

The more you decentralize your DPS, the longer it will take, the harder it will be to heal, etc.

Just split 'em up when you want 'em to die.

While I agree your method is more straight forward and faster strategically (I do not agree it is easier on the healers, although it is usually quicker), it is harder to successfully employ in a PUG situation which, as I said, is what this strategy is for. Three mobs could easily cause a party wipe or heavy resource usage with the modern strategy you suggest - fire elemental, Sagrata, and the gnoll. The old strategy gives these benefits: A) inexperienced players deal better with discreet jobs in a more controlled situation, B) you can evaluate success of the individual groups and compensate by pulling people off the wall or the NE, C) you can put your best tanks in key situations, D) your ranged DPS can go on the wall with one up north assisted by healer DPS and firewall, E) takes advantage of 2 healers and a bard (a centralized method only needs one healer), and F) party-wipes are extremely unlikely because you have discreet groups and overall incoming DPS/party member is reduced.

I will point out I don't do these anymore as there are more interesting things to do with epics. I used to do them once every 4 weeks or so, just so people in smaller guilds would get a chance to do the shroud on elite. I haven't been so inclined as of lately, because alot of the newer guilds are full of 30-year-old adolescents or bratty kids. My use of the shroud has more shifted to my original post (I do 35-45 minute PUG shrouds while watching TV/surfing the net, and look for problem players; or I do private speed runs).

[bobbryan2]

While I agree your method is more straight forward and faster strategically (I do not agree it is easier on the healers, although it is usually quicker), it is harder to successfully employ in a PUG situation which, as I said, is what this strategy is for. Three mobs could easily cause a party wipe or heavy resource usage with the modern strategy you suggest - fire elemental, Sagrata, and the gnoll. The old strategy gives these benefits: A) inexperienced players deal better with discreet jobs in a more controlled situation, B) you can evaluate success of the individual groups and compensate by pulling people off the wall or the NE, C) you can put your best tanks in key situations, D) your ranged DPS can go on the wall with one up north assisted by healer DPS and firewall, E) takes advantage of 2 healers and a bard (a centralized method only needs one healer), and F) party-wipes are extremely unlikely because you have discreet groups and overall incoming DPS/party member is reduced.

I will point out I don't do these anymore as there are more interesting things to do with epics. I used to do them once every 4 weeks or so, just so people in smaller guilds would get a chance to do the shroud on elite. I haven't been so inclined as of lately, because alot of the newer guilds are full of 30-year-old adolescents or bratty kids. My use of the shroud has more shifted to my original post (I do 35-45 minute PUG shrouds while watching TV/surfing the net, and look for problem players; or I do private speed runs).

I gotta say I disagree still. In pug situations, that strategy is even worse.

A) inexperienced players deal better with discreet jobs in a more controlled situation,

Perhaps, but the real weakness of the strategy is that you can no longer 'hide' weak DPS. If you're split off three way, you're forced to deal with smaller groups where player deficiencies are more evident.

B) you can evaluate success of the individual groups and compensate by pulling people off the wall or the NE,

Yes, you can evaluate. But as you said earlier, this is a pug. This is your first chance to evaluate them unless you have previous knowledge or they did something completely bone-headed on part 1. But there's no need to evaluate them if you concentrate them in one place.

C) you can put your best tanks in key situations,

Your best tanks will generally have the best DPS, and thus, can control the situation when it's time to break them.

D) your ranged DPS can go on the wall with one up north assisted by healer DPS and firewall,

Ranged DPS? What's that?

E) takes advantage of 2 healers and a bard (a centralized method only needs one healer), and

Ok, overhealing is one drawback I can admit to.

F) party-wipes are extremely unlikely because you have discreet groups and overall incoming DPS/party member is reduced.

Incoming DPS is mostly the same except for cleaves. And not a lot of the lieutenants are cleaving monsters.

The real weaknesses is that you can't cover up bad DPS in small groups of 3-4. You can't cover bad healing in groups of 3-4. The overall DPS is reduced, because 2 groups are reduced to "waiting till the last one is prepped." Your group is less able to deal with surprises, because they are too far from each other.

I like my strategies to be fluid and able to be changed on the flow. The splitting is so rigid that when things start going south, it's very hard to fix it.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I gotta say I disagree still. In pug situations, that strategy is even worse. I think you missed the part about the fact I have successfully employed this strategy on more than just a couple occasions. Based upon my experience at least half of the PUGs on elite would have wiped with a modern approach.


Perhaps, but the real weakness of the strategy is that you can no longer 'hide' weak DPS. If you're split off three way, you're forced to deal with smaller groups where player deficiencies are more evident. You don't need to hide weak DPS. They will kill them with not much of a wait, especially if you reinforce the weak area once the NE or SE are prepped.
Yes, you can evaluate. But as you said earlier, this is a pug. This is your first chance to evaluate them unless you have previous knowledge or they did something completely bone-headed on part 1. But there's no need to evaluate them if you concentrate them in one place. You contradicted yourself. If you can't evaluate them when they are concentrated you can't fix a bad thing. You just throw mana at things and hope it works out eventually (burn resources).

Your best tanks will generally have the best DPS, and thus, can control the situation when it's time to break them. They can't control it if they are bewildered, confused, or dead (which happens very often).

Ranged DPS? What's that? I think you missed alot of the strategy then.
Ok, overhealing is one drawback I can admit to. Overhealing is where resources get burned in parts 2, 4, and 5. The whole point of the strategy is to do it on ELITE with a PUG with no or just 1 or 2 pots.


Incoming DPS is mostly the same except for cleaves. And not a lot of the lieutenants are cleaving monsters. You are discounting Fireballs and gnoll caster dps, which is very heavy on elite.

The real weaknesses is that you can't cover up bad DPS in small groups of 3-4. You can't cover bad healing in groups of 3-4. The overall DPS is reduced, because 2 groups are reduced to "waiting till the last one is prepped." Your group is less able to deal with surprises, because they are too far from each other. This simply isn't the case. I have used this strategy successfully many times. You are arguing with success. You have 3 extras for dealing with problems.

I like my strategies to be fluid and able to be changed on the flow. The splitting is so rigid that when things start going south, it's very hard to fix it.This strategy is much better compared to the modern for "fixing" things. That is one of the main points in using it. It is more fluid than you are giving it credit for.

My responses are in blue. It sounds like you are arguing based upon how you think things should work with little experience in this type of group or are trying to justify one strategy for all situations, compared to how it actually does work. The fact is that this strategy works very well on elite with a PUG, and I have done it over and over. I am very confident the modern strategy would cause a wipe with at least a 15-25% probability and heavy resource useage in about 50-75% of the cases. If you want to use your strategy, that's fine, I would not recommend it to anyone that is contemplating doing a PUG elite shroud. Of course, it IS the way I would do it in a guild/chat channel group. In any event, I have gone way further in explaining things than I typically would (I don't know why) and we are way off topic. I'm not going any further.

Good luck.

[Quikster]

Its rather easy to deal with gnoll and fire if you suspect your group is going to have problems (on normal or elite).

Both need to be brought to south and turned around so they face away from the group. If the gnoll throws a gc, he will only get the person hes agro'd on instead of making everyone make a save. He only usually needs to be partially prepped by the time the kill order goes out. Once one of the mobs are dead the people responsable for that one can team up on gnoll and take him down fairly quick. (for instance if orthon was killed first)

Same tactic for fire. Whoever fights him positions him in an opening in the maze facing away from the group. The rest of the group will not take splash damage ( or wont take much) from fires attacks now.

This is the way we did it when we first started pulling things to the south. It takes more coordination then just pull and kill, but less then splitting into 3 groups.

[k1ngp1n]

My responses are in blue.

Ack, my eyes!

[Quikster]

In any event, I have gone way further in explaining things than I typically would (I don't know why) and we are way off topic.

lmao.

[Thelmallen]

I guess this is another reason I don't lead speed runs. I don't get to hear my glorious voice as much, which is very important. Way more important than saving a few minutes.

Speed runs may not be your forte (never actually run one with FC) but you do lead a good raid. People would do better to pay more attention to your advice in this thread rather than arguing with you.

[The_Great_Samulas]

lmao.

lol. That does sound rather strange coming from me I guess. I should have qualified that by saying "in the forums".

And your strategy points I had already assumed this in the strategy for pulling everything together (they are basics aren't they? - I would hope a raid leader on elite would specify this, among other things). Would you trust a PUG member to do this correctly? ...and be able to hold agro so it is successful? ...and don't forget bladebarrier, which PUG guys like to keep running back and forth through ...and the fact they love to forget to kill things in order and that fire elemental and cat move so quick ...and "you wanted me to be at the crystal?" ...and "**** I guess I should have had quicken on" ...and "I didn't know I had agro (particularly priceless when the guy with the fire elemental agro says it after everyone is dead)". This list goes on and on. This list shortens significantly in a more controlled situation with discreet groups (you prep everything and verify readiness). I'm not saying its faster, I'm just saying it is better in a PUG on elite.

[Quikster]

lol. That does sound rather strange coming from me I guess. I should have qualified that by saying "in the forums".

And your strategy points I had already assumed this in the strategy for pulling everything together (they are basics aren't they? - I would hope a raid leader on elite would specify this, among other things). Would you trust a PUG member to do this correctly? ...and be able to hold agro so it is successful? ...and don't forget bladebarrier, which PUG guys like to keep running back and forth through ...and the fact they love to forget to kill things in order and that fire elemental and cat move so quick ...and "you wanted me to be at the crystal?" ...and "**** I guess I should have had quicken on" ...and "I didn't know I had agro (particularly priceless when the guy with the fire elemental agro says it after everyone is dead)". This list goes on and on. This list shortens significantly in a more controlled situation with discreet groups (you prep everything and verify readiness). I'm not saying its faster, I'm just saying it is better in a PUG on elite.

Dont get me wrong, im not telling the great sam how to run his pugs by any stretch. Im simply clarifying a few things that i didnt read. Granted, I didnt read your whole post (much as I do in your raids ) I just tried to hit on the high points.

I agree it can be frustrating when dealing with people that dont have the knowledge of game mechanics (read knowledge of game mechanics, not new to the game.) I know many people that have been playing for years that have some pretty whacked out ideas about how this game works.

Theres also the people that done listen. For example, I was running a tod the other day, mostly with people from channels or guild, and a few pugs. We had an intimitank on horoth. I instructed the group that should anyone get a dot to call it out so we could determine who has hate, and that person would stay with horoth while the rest of the group pulled out to kill sully. No dots were called when sully dropped. The group went to kill sully. Horoth came over and pwnd whoever had hate, then turned to me. I took him back to the tank and all was good, we finished no biggie.

The point is, all someone had to do was realize they had a badge (not that hard imo, "why am i taking this constant damage") and they could have stayed with horoth and we could have avoided that death. Once again, not a huge deal but the run was full of people that have been playing the game at a high level for a while now.

[LordPiglet]

I will pay 50k plat to anyone that points it out to me in any raid that Sam is leading if he only use a 15 second speech.

And no... with Sam you don't get speed runs...

Love ya buddy!!

I don't know, my ranger pugged on his EDQ run and I don't recall that much of a speech from him. The most was a couple questions about bows. Other then that, it was just some general chatter.

[Quikster]

Ack, my eyes! I like lime for that reason. Blue on black is hard to read

in lime

[Thelmallen]

I don't know, my ranger pugged on his EDQ run and I don't recall that much of a speech from him. The most was a couple questions about bows. Other then that, it was just some general chatter.

Perhaps he had laryngitis? Recent tonsillectomy? Maybe Zixx hijacked his account.