Is Tempest Ranger still the best TWF char with U5?

[Vulgari]

With update 5, is the following statement describing the Ranger class in the compendium valid?
http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Class:Ranger

"They are the best class at two-weapon fighting, using a weapon in each hand."

I haven't really been able to see what those on lam have determined but I suspect that a tempest III ranger is outclassed by a capstoned kensai fighter just based on the update notes I read (or even perhaps a dual wielding monk or rogue?).

Would like feedback from those who have been able to run the numbers.

[JDCrowell]

Here is a quote from the release notes for Update 5 in regards to TWF:

Attacks with two handed weapons performed while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.
Two Weapon Fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) have been optimized for performance and balance.
Off hand attacks now have a chance to proc (trigger) off of any main hand attacks based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (and related enhancements) you possess. (Instead of being predetermined on certain attacks in the attack chain.)
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats now grant a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Ranger Tempest I and II now grant a +10%/+20% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed.

I'm going to miss the attack speed, but from what I saw playing tonight, my Tempest I Ranger is still very fast with his Kopeshes and have yet to see a drop off. From what I was hearing from guys in Lam was that Tempest II was getting 100/100 main hand to offhand hits with TWF and a pretty good drop off with off-hand attacks with Tempest I. It seems Tempest is still going to be a wrecking ball and a force to be reckoned with, but I'm not sure with Kensai as I have no experience there.
Hope that helps a little

[Sinni]

the most dps most probably is some multiclass and that has been like that quite a long time now and i guess it will stay like that. the drawback you have is that those builds generally are much more vulnerable to game changes than plain pure class builds.

[Meriadeuc]

It looks like rangers with at least tempest II are going to still be the best at TWF specifically, because they will be the only ones who can get off-hand attacks 100% or the time. Other prestige classes will be able to get higher double-strike rates (which apply to all fighting styles) then you get with tempest III, however. Depending upon the specific weapons that are being used, a higher double strike rate with a lower off-hand rate or even with at two-handed weapon may end up causing more damage than tempest III. There also may be combinations of Tempest II and other prestige classes that give the 100% off-hand chance along with a better double-strike chance than tempest III.

[Consumer]

Rangers weren't and never will be the best, that 100% offhand will never matter while they have no haste boosts, minimal strength and other damage sources to increase their DPS.

The difference between a Ranger and TWF Fighter could reach over 100 DPS in favor of the Fighter depending on 20 or 18/2 and the builds pre U5, now the difference is reduced but the superiority of the fighter is still there.


Don't worry, Rangers have bows!!!

[Aaxeyu]

Rangers weren't and never will be the best, that 100% offhand will never matter while they have no haste boosts, minimal strength and other damage sources to increase their DPS.

The difference between a Ranger and TWF Fighter could reach over 100 DPS in favor of the Fighter depending on 20 or 18/2 and the builds pre U5, now the difference is reduced but the superiority of the fighter is still there.


Don't worry, Rangers have bows!!!

This.

100% offhand means very little when you have fewer attacks per minute and deal way less damage per attack.

[Elixxer]

Rangers weren't and never will be the best, that 100% offhand will never matter while they have no haste boosts, minimal strength and other damage sources to increase their DPS.

The difference between a Ranger and TWF Fighter could reach over 100 DPS in favor of the Fighter depending on 20 or 18/2 and the builds pre U5, now the difference is reduced but the superiority of the fighter is still there.


Don't worry, Rangers have bows!!!

oh that cuts me deep... real deep.

This must be the reason why I outlive most fighters in quests as a drow exploiter. built to survive, dps, pvp, quest, slayer, trapbust, look cool in robes, ect ect.

but then again this is another top DPS thread huh

[JayDubya]

This.

100% offhand means very little when you have fewer attacks per minute and deal way less damage per attack.

This is true, but everyone else has fewer attacks as well, and THF-twitching is affected too.

[kingfisher]

*PURE* Rangers weren't and never will be the best, that 100% offhand will never matter while they have no haste boosts, minimal strength and other damage sources to increase their DPS.

The difference between a Ranger and TWF Fighter could reach over 100 DPS in favor of the Fighter depending on 20 or 18/2 and the builds pre U5, now the difference is reduced but the superiority of the fighter is still there.


Bows r teh geigh!!!

fixed that for ya

[grodon9999]

This.

100% offhand means very little when you have fewer attacks per minute and deal way less damage per attack.

I trust your numbers because you always show the math. Proportionally how much did we lose?

[Elixxer]

Ah! my bad I thought he was talking about ranger splashes... the thing is I don't see any pure 20 ranger running around as a tempest... I wonder how long this dudes been playing, and yes very good math numbers.

[kingfisher]

oh that cuts me deep... real deep.

This must be the reason why I outlive most fighters in quests as a drow exploiter. built to survive, dps, pvp, quest, slayer, trapbust, look cool in robes, ect ect.

but then again this is another top DPS thread huh

Ah! my bad I thought he was talking about ranger splashes... the thing is I don't see any pure 20 ranger running around as a tempest... I wonder how long this dudes been playing, and yes very good math numbers.

you'll be just fine, your toy will still do all of that stuff well.

[grodon9999]

oh that cuts me deep... real deep.

This must be the reason why I outlive most fighters in quests as a drow exploiter. built to survive, dps, pvp, quest, slayer, trapbust, look cool in robes, ect ect.

but then again this is another top DPS thread huh

Our survivability hasn't been nerfed, yet . . .

[Vulgari]

Thanks for the comments so far.
This is not about Ranger being top DPS or whether or not some Ranger multi-class is top DPS. Or even whether or not Ranger melee strength should be offset because Rangers have bonuses using bows and can cast some spells.

My point really is that the Compendium which is supposed to be DDO's reference guide specifically states that Rangers are the best at TWF. Period. No qualifications. So my question is: Are there other classes that can be built to use TWF and are actually superior than tempest Ranger at TWF?

If so then, clearly the Compendium should be changed to say something else.

Once again my question is not about what you think Rangers should or should not be but what DDO has clearly stated Rangers are and whether or not DDO's claim is in fact true.

I recognize that the Compendium description may have been invalid prior to U5. I simply took the description at face value before and really didn't question it until after I read the U5 notes.

[Elixxer]

you'll be just fine, your toy will still do all of that stuff well.

Indeed ^^

[KoboldKiller]

When exactly did Rangers get "minimal" strength?

[Goldeneye]

Don't forget favored enemy damage.

[grodon9999]

Don't forget favored enemy damage.

We still do less damage than fighters unless the fight goes over something like 10 minutes. Those haste boosts and power-surges are awesome.

We're not gimped but keep it real. Rangers are not and haven't been the best *** DPS since as long as Kensai has been out.

[ArichValtrahn]

Isnt the Monster (Tempest multiclass build) still the king of DPS according to the recently posted charts? If so, for both U4 and U5 the tempest was the best twf char. Not a pure ranger tempest mind you, but a tempest ranger.

Edit: Chart link: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...3&postcount=17

And no, looks like the Pally edges them out currently.

[Silvershaper]

If so then, clearly the Compendium should be changed to say something else.

Well, one of the loading screen tips says that paralyse = auto crit...