U5 Rogue changes, questions

[Psyker]

I have been considering making a new rogue but I need a few questions answered before I build him.

I saw one of the changes for U5 is that thief acrobats can add their DEX modifier to sneak attacks while using quarterstaff's, is this meant to be DEX instead of STR or is it DEX and STR, to me it looks like it is both (only for SA's) but I want to make sure.

Will you be able to take both capstones at LVL 20? I haven't seen anything that says one way or the other but I am guessing it will only be one.

Does anyone have any builds for a thief acrobat taking the new changes into consideration? I have played around with it a little but still haven't found something I am real happy with, I'm thinking of going halfling for the extra sneak attack damage, but I'm happier with my stats and skills as a human unless I go for a lower HP rogue (I think of 12 con as low HP).

Thanks for any help, and comments.

[rimble]

Rogue Thief Acrobats can now add their Dexterity Modifier to quarterstaff sneak attack damage.

So when sneak attacking with a quarterstaff, you do all your regular damage (including from Strength) and add your Dex too.

You can only take one Capstone.

Pretty sure new builds are out there, look around...Rogue forums, Character Builds, Multiclasses...

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Acrobat builds won't change with this; it just makes having a higher Dex and/or activating Showtime during big fights a way to boost damage some. The only foreseeable thing that would change Acrobat builds would be Acrobat3.

Same with Assassin; builds won't change, they'll just be doing more sneak attack damage (and less critical damage).

Mechanic is where the bulk of the U5 changes are for rogues, what with trap crafting, and all the crossbow bonuses Mechanic gets.

[Syntax42]

So when sneak attacking with a quarterstaff, you do all your regular damage (including from Strength) and add your Dex too.

That just sounds confusing. Let me try to clarify.

Your main attack damage is calculated every time you land a hit. It is done the same way for every class. This attack damage is rolled according to the damage range of the weapon (i.e. 1d6 = 1 to 6 damage) then damage modifiers are added to that random result. This includes Strength modifier, the weapon's "+" bonus, and buffs you may have. Dex and Sneak Attack damage do NOT play any factor in the main attack's damage.

Next, if your attack counts as a sneak attack and the enemy does not negate it through fortification, damage for your sneak attack is calculated. There is a randomization roll depending on how many Rogue levels you have. For example, a level 5 Rogue has 3d6 sneak attack die, or does 3 to 18 damage. After the randomization, modifiers are added. This is when the dexterity modifier bonus comes into play, as well as any enhancements or sneak attack gear you may have.

Here is something to think about, though. Most Acrobat builds will have around 30 Dex at level 20, although 40ish is possible. That is a modifier of 10 to 15 damage being added to an average of 24.5 (7d6, assuming 13 Rogue levels) damage, for a total of 39.5 average damage in the best-case scenario. Compare that to a two-weapon fighting Rogue who swings his offhand 80% of the time in update 5. He gets the 24.5 average damage every hit, then an average of 19.6 damage added from his offhand's sneak attacks, for a total of 44.1 average unmodified damage from sneak attacks with only 13 Rogue levels. Consider the increased likelihood of the TWF rogue remaining pure, picking up the Assassin PrE for instant-kills, and doing main attack damage on offhand hits and the Acrobat option looks a lot less attractive. The change is merely to help Acrobats get closer to traditional TWF Rogues, but doesn't quite close the gap.

[karl_k0ch]

There are some additional things which have to be considered when comparing a Quarterstaff build with a TWF one:

Firstly, when you say 13 Rogue levels, the other levels might be filled with Ranger ones, allowing Tempest I and a offhand chance of 90%, increasing not only the SA damage but also the regular damage (which you didn't consider at all).

Secondly, Acrobat I & II grant a Competence Speed Boost, increasing the attack rate of Quarterstaffs. I didn't find a number how large this speed boost is. In addition, the monk lesser wind stance will grant an additional speed boost (7.5% Enhancement bonus and 2.5% Insight bonus, per ddowiki), which increases the dps further, but in which way i am not able to tell.

So comparing Quarterstaff vs. TWF might even be a bit more involved than the solid SA damage comparison of Syntax42.

[Psyker]

I do not think that Thief Acrobats are going to out DPS TWF assassins, I already have a TWF assassin and he does well but I got a little bored with him and put him on the shelf for a while (my first TR character so xp is starting to grind).

However I have never made an Acrobat and think they would be a lot of fun to play, my current plan is halfling with starting stats 16-16-14-12 (STR-DEX-CON-INT) all level ups to STR, I am considering dumping INT as well because from my experience I can still no fail 99% of the traps as long as I keep my gear up, but if i did that I would have to cut 2 things out of spot, tumble (so I can fall fast), hide, or sneak, frankly I could cut all 4 and be just fine but since it only costs +1 DEX mod I think it will be worth getting 2 extra skills plus +2 on my trap skills.

Current plan is to stay pure but I may go with 2 levels of monk, nice thing is if I decide I want to I can take them anytime and it won't hurt the build.

[countesscrow]

I do not think that Thief Acrobats are going to out DPS TWF assassins, I already have a TWF assassin and he does well but I got a little bored with him and put him on the shelf for a while (my first TR character so xp is starting to grind).

However I have never made an Acrobat and think they would be a lot of fun to play, my current plan is halfling with starting stats 16-16-14-12 (STR-DEX-CON-INT) all level ups to STR, I am considering dumping INT as well because from my experience I can still no fail 99% of the traps as long as I keep my gear up, but if i did that I would have to cut 2 things out of spot, tumble (so I can fall fast), hide, or sneak, frankly I could cut all 4 and be just fine but since it only costs +1 DEX mod I think it will be worth getting 2 extra skills plus +2 on my trap skills.

Current plan is to stay pure but I may go with 2 levels of monk, nice thing is if I decide I want to I can take them anytime and it won't hurt the build.

You should tak the 2 levels of monk for the 2.5 percent double attack bonus that wind stance one will give you after mod 5.

[Psyker]

You should tak the 2 levels of monk for the 2.5 percent double attack bonus that wind stance one will give you after mod 5.

I am considering taking 2 levels of monk for that, however the new rogue capstone has me tempted to stay pure, plus at 19 another D6 SA damage and another rogue feat, so far its a tough call for me.

[elyssaria]

I am considering taking 2 levels of monk for that, however the new rogue capstone has me tempted to stay pure, plus at 19 another D6 SA damage and another rogue feat, so far its a tough call for me.

Well you really don't have to take two lvls of monk.. it's enough with 1 lvl. First lvl of Windstance comes with lvl 1. You also get one extra feat with one lvl monk, you also get the wisdom bonus to your AC score with one lvl monk. By going two lvls monk you get one more feat and evasion (which you already have due to being rogue), meditation (which you won't need anyway) and the possibility to choose a animal path (which also is not that important).

So I personally would stick to one lvl of monk and you can get your 19th lvl rogue.

/Khierra

[Razcar]

Secondly, Acrobat I & II grant a Competence Speed Boost, increasing the attack rate of Quarterstaffs. I didn't find a number how large this speed boost is.

AFAIK this has never been tested. (Probably due to the fact that q-staff builds have been seen as novelty concepts.)

[Syntax42]

There are some additional things which have to be considered when comparing a Quarterstaff build with a TWF one:

Firstly, when you say 13 Rogue levels, the other levels might be filled with Ranger ones, allowing Tempest I and a offhand chance of 90%, increasing not only the SA damage but also the regular damage (which you didn't consider at all).

Secondly, Acrobat I & II grant a Competence Speed Boost, increasing the attack rate of Quarterstaffs. I didn't find a number how large this speed boost is. In addition, the monk lesser wind stance will grant an additional speed boost (7.5% Enhancement bonus and 2.5% Insight bonus, per ddowiki), which increases the dps further, but in which way i am not able to tell.

So comparing Quarterstaff vs. TWF might even be a bit more involved than the solid SA damage comparison of Syntax42.

You use U5 information for Tempest, but not Wind Stance. The enhancement bonus to Wind Stance remains the same and does not stack with Haste. The Insight bonus is converting to double-strike chance.

I didn't include Tempest or Wind Stance because a TWF Rogue has access to both, and both would increase the damage of the TWF Rogue, supporting my original point even more.

There are also many other build combinations that could affect DPS. None of them would affect DPS by a large enough amount to boost either build style (TWF or staff) ahead of the other. Therefore, my original comparison of TWF sneak attacks to Acrobat's Dex-modified sneak attacks is the best way to look at the differences.

[Aerendil]

You use U5 information for Tempest, but not Wind Stance. The enhancement bonus to Wind Stance remains the same and does not stack with Haste. The Insight bonus is converting to double-strike chance.

Exactly.
So as of U5 (i.e. today), if you are hasted, the only thing Wind Stance I will offer you is a 2.5% double-strike chance.

Mind you if solo it grants you a 7.5% haste boost if you don't want to drink Haste pots all the time, so that's nice. But in a group scenerio where the group is perma-hasted? The viability of a Monk splash is now a little dubious.

I guess it comes down more to whether you want the AC + 2.5% double-strike vs. capstone (or 5% double-strike if you went /6 Monk).

Tough call, IMO.

Also, on the Llama boards, I believe Phenx confirmed that the speed boost for Acrobat was still stacking with Haste, making Acrobats the fastest-swinging things in DDO as of U5.

[Artos_Fabril]

I didn't include Tempest or Wind Stance because a TWF Rogue has access to both, and both would increase the damage of the TWF Rogue, supporting my original point even more.

Unless you
A) Use Kamas
B) Use handwraps (no tempest bonuses)
C) blow a feat and use Longswords
or D) go Monk 6 (ninja-spy) and use shortswords, your TWF rogue does not have access to wind stance

I don't claim it's significant, but in the interests of accuracy it should be pointed out, any way you cut it, you're stuck with a less effective weapon if you want wind stance bonuses.