Drow enhancement love

[Thriand]

It is amazing how much races have changed in this game from the time they were first introduced. I remember when warforged were so bad that people wouldn't even let them in groups and thanks to a little revamp in their immunities and a lot of love in the enhancement department they are arguably one of the best races around. In contrast drow were the end all be all when first introduced and have now kind of fell by the way side with the introduction of 32 pt builds and the current action point system.

Drow for the most part have the worst racial enhancements of all the races with everything being either completely useless (drow spell resistance, drow ranged attack/damage) or its an enhancement that can be pretty easily mimicked with other races (drow melee attack/damage, elven enchantment resistance, elven dexterity). As a result people tend to choose drow for their stat point distribution rather than their enhancements. Since drow are 28 pt builds this means they loose a good bit of flexibility in stat distribution which means drow are often pigeonholed into classes that need high int,cha, and dex.

The four most popular classes I see people promoting the use of drow for are rogues, TWF paladins, sorcerers, and wizards. The problem is I find that the drow enhancements for those 4 classes are either mostly useless, or pale in comparison to another races.

Sorcerers and wizards have very little priority for ANY of the drow enhancements and almost no use for 2 of the 3 stats drow get a boost in, which means the difference between a human w/ racial enhancements and a drow becomes 1 pt of cha/int vs 1 feat, more con, 1 more toughness enhancement, and healing amplification. All in all a human caster is considerably more survivable than a drow caster for considerably less gain.

Rogues truly are the bread and butter of the drow race, they can make use of almost all the drow enhancements and can make use of all 3 stat bonuses drow get. I would have almost have no complaints about drow rogues if it weren't for those pesky 32 pt halflings. In a game that leans more towards survivability/DPS with every module halfling rogues wipe the floor with the drow rogues with more flanking bonuses, more sneak attack damage, more AC, better saves (except vs enchantments), and more hp, all while not being limited to rapiers/shortswords like drow enhancements. As rogue DPS is mostly about the sneak attack damage I think the extra damage halflings get far outweigh the bonuses gained from +2 int and +2 cha, especially since at level 20 1 pt more of UMD doesn't matter as much anymore.

Paladins on the other hand aren't so highly recommended for drow so much as the TWF, divine might paladins because of the steep base stat requirements needed to meet both GTWF and Divine might IV, however do to the naturally high dex and charisma their saves tend to be very high anyway and have very little need for the enchantment resistance or dexterity enhancement. Which means the only real useful enhancement is rapier damage. I don't have any real complaints about drow being used with this build as drow make easily available to more casual players, but as higher + tomes become available to more determined players a human can also meet the steep requirements to play this build without making the sacrifices.

Personally when I sit down to plan out a build (and I will admit that I am a bit of a power gamer) I take into consideration more than just a builds base stat distribution to determine what race would be best for the build. It seems that so often when people bring up drow arguments that the only thing they ever talk about it stats, but when I'm planning out my builds its not base stats where I find drow falling short, but rather when I start considering what can be done with enhancements. For that reason I seriously think the devs should consider giving the drow some enhancement love.

I understand that a lot of people think of drow as perfectly fine as the way they are because they are a sort of stepping stone to a 32 pt build, allowing for more casual players to get an early start on a good build without having to rebuild him once they unlock 32 pts, but I don't think that with greater reincarnations available to upgrade old 28 pt builds that its fair to leave a race that has to be unlocked (or paid for) so far behind in the dust.

I'm not the best at coming up with ideas that would actually fix the issue so feel free to recommend some if they come to your mind. Personally I'd like to see the current spell resistance enhancements either done away with and just grant drow SR 11+ character level, or highly revamped so that the SR isn't easily outdone by a simple item or spell. Also I'd really like for drow to be able to choose what stat they want to spend AP on out of int, cha, and dex rather than being forced to choose dex. I think that those changes alone would go a long way to improving drow enhancements without really having to do any work, but I would really also like to see more added to the drow that separates their enhancements more from the elves to make them more of unique race and less of a slightly altered less versatile elf clone.

[GhoulsTouch]

I started a Drow THF rogue Assassin with IF. The intelligence bonuses are awesome for skills and later will be for assassinate.Having the charisma to boost bluff to use feint being able to cleave a mob of monsters, doing a ton of sneak attack damage right in their face in a single swing almost instantly has been awesome so far and so is the early progression of decent UMD.

Alot of people who have used Improved feint in the past have neglected bluff for everyone is told "Bluff is Useless" so for those people Improved feint was also useless.

I think alot of people and mostly veterns with no disrespect whatsoever go by the motto if it ain't broke don't fix it. Or if you can't fix it don't try. So what we have is alot of the same old,same old that people know works because they are told to do something only one particular way or afraid to try anything differently.

But I agree the SR thing should be progressive and not at all costly to obtain especially since of how trivial it is. Maybe SR 11 then at 9 th level plus one thereafter.

Also I agree that Drow should be able to have the choice of stat enhancements and then be forced to stick with it. Starting base stats should go unchanged however.

[Doganpc]

As the fairly easy to obtain via favor race I don't see what you can add to make them better without losing the selling point of 32pt builds. You need 1750 favor for 32pt build via favor on a server. The most you can get strictly F2P is 1,001 which means you need to buy Adventure packs or buy 32pt builds. This is where Drow lost in the conversion to F2P. There is no incentive to get people to buy Drow (400 favor easy), thus you can't make it better you won't sell 32pt builds. What I would like to see is some things put in to make Drow more unique. Say shuriken that are worth a ****, or a racial enhancement line that carves out their niche a little more (scorpion wraith). Maybe add shortbow to the ranged enhancements... On the extreme make buying Drow worth it by combining it with the 32pt build option and thus a purchased Drow starting as an Expert (32pt build) actually starts at the first reincarnation tier of 34pts. It won't fix the TWF pally/Rogue/Wizard/Sorceror bias because thats what their stats dictate they *should* play, but it would give incentive to actually buying Drow and thus making it better/worth it. Compare this to Warforged, a class only accessible to paying players and its easy to see why it carries as much value as it does.

As for their being typecast as the above mentioned classes... The Drow Wizard or Sorceror while probably squishier and with less options than other races has 1 thing no other race can come close too (other than Human). Spell DC, no other race can hit 20 base INT or CHA. Humans can fake it with their versatility enhancement line by sacraficing AP's that the Drow gets to use to amplify their arcane output. Then, the Melee enhancements sacrifice max hitting power by giving you a bonus to both your primary hand AND your off hand without OTWF. Not including the fact that the bonus is still there when sneak attacks are no longer an option. While TWF Paladin is a solid option Paladin in general is viable. Nobody said you have to max your DEX/INT/CHA, Combat Expertise is cheap with Drow, Saves are better with Drow, TWF is cheap with Drow, Spring attack is easier to stat for, Intimidate + UMD are cheaper to give points to. The truly limiting factor with Drow is they don't get the Human extra feat (which goes a long way and why Human generally will be better than any other race).

*Thanks to GhoulsTouch I finally realized how to fix my Ninja Assassin build. Had totally overlooked Bluff and Improved Feint The stats are a little tight 10/16/12/14/14/10, but the monk stances move a +2/-1 around STR/DEX/CON/WIS making the relatively cheaper +5 stat items more appealing... There is some player feedback from ninja spy pre to consider before I commit to it as the +2 to the assassinate ability may not be worth it.

Dogan
Enjoy's his Drow builds with no -1 ability modifiers.

[Thriand]

Again, I don't think it's drow stats that need to be looked at, but rather the enhancements. I find it rather sad that my drow sorcerer doesn't have a single racial enhancement, especially considering people always recommend casters for the drow race.

I don't think there is any problem with drow remaining a 28 pt build, in some cases their bonuses work out to better stats than a 32 pointer can get in many cases they don't, however drow without a doubt have the WORST enhancements of any race which is why they need a little love in that area.

[Doganpc]

Okay then, the only enhancement that jumps out at me that seems unfair is Elven Arcanum. Since Drow are Elves shouldn't they have access to innate elven enhancements? I'm okay with the weapon focuses being different as thats trained, but the Elven affinity to the Arcane is missing in Drow. Unless you count the bonus to INT/CHA. Drow's lack of dragonmark is moot as Dragonmarks starve your build of feats. They don't get Arcane Archer but this could be offset by Scorpion Wraith (when/if they do it). That's about it. As for Drow specific, your right, their Ranged Enhancement sucks and their Spell Resistance enhancement has limited effectiveness and is quickly outdone by clerics. Maybe a form of Human Adaptability would be nice, but wouldn't that just convert every pure wizard/sorceror to Drow?

Dogan
Could be they haven't changed because they haven't needed to.

[Traeon]

I actually rolled Drow for my sorcerer because of the high charisma and spell resistance (which I thought would make up for lower con). Turns out the spell resistance doesn't help.

I would quite like if the spell resistance actually reduced elemental damage by 15% or something like that.

[Stormwine]

Well every toon I have now is Drow just because I have always loved drows. Say what you will I know there weak points and what they are lacking but I love drows and when ever I roll a toon it will be a drow.

[Fedora]

Well every toon I have now is Drow just because I have always loved drows. Say what you will I know there weak points and what they are lacking but I love drows and when ever I roll a toon it will be a drow.

I have 10 toons. Three are Drow. The last 3 I made as a matter of fact.

TWF Pally, TWF Ranger, and a TWF Rogue/Fighter/Bard.

[Tinrae]

Well every toon I have now is Drow just because I have always loved drows. Say what you will I know there weak points and what they are lacking but I love drows and when ever I roll a toon it will be a drow.

Nearly the same for me, except I also play elves. The elf races of Eberron fascinate me from a lore standpoint. I don't roleplay, but I did have a bit of a theme in mind when I rolled my toons.

My own drow are mostly stereotypical: TWF Paladin, Wiz, Sorc, Bard....but I also made a Monk (I knew going into this the race would add nothing, but it's a flavor character). While I'm mostly happy with them, lately I've been sort of wishing I'd made my arcanes elf instead so I'd have the option of the arcane enhancements and perhaps even toying with the AA enhancements.

I agree with a previous poster that said the starting stats are fine, but the enhancements should be tweaked a bit.

[Karavek]

ive a few threads on fun ways to expand a drows abilities althoguh it seems mostly the drow haters like to respond.

For the points you mention, yes drow SR should be a single AP cost of 4 points that grants a naturally increasing SR of 11+ character lvl. It is so much weaker then in pen and paper here that its just silly to call it a good enhancment line.

Drow weapon group should include rapier,short sword, dagger, throwing dagger, and shuriken. in addition to the standard to hit and dmg bonuses all races get with thier group, drow should gain lines that improve thier two weapon ability when using weapons from thier list. Perhaps also using thier character lvl, gain a racial enhancment line for thier racial weapons with similar crit bonuses to the kensai.

Finally thier racial stat enhancment should be for dex chr and int all at once for a cost equal to other races single stat. This would help drow stats compete with 32 point builds who most see as superior for thier flexibility, therefor drow need further specialization to feel properly balanced.

For more complex ideas look for other drow post by yours truly, and dont let the drow haters get you down.

[Karavek]

Nearly the same for me, except I also play elves. The elf races of Eberron fascinate me from a lore standpoint. I don't roleplay, but I did have a bit of a theme in mind when I rolled my toons.

My own drow are mostly stereotypical: TWF Paladin, Wiz, Sorc, Bard....but I also made a Monk (I knew going into this the race would add nothing, but it's a flavor character). While I'm mostly happy with them, lately I've been sort of wishing I'd made my arcanes elf instead so I'd have the option of the arcane enhancements and perhaps even toying with the AA enhancements.

I agree with a previous poster that said the starting stats are fine, but the enhancements should be tweaked a bit.

drow excel as monk with the ninja spy prestige. id do only 7 lvls, then grab 7 in rogue for assassin, and do the last 6 in kensai short sword. working on one right now, tons of fun since I had a great arsenal of short swords from my drow ranger rapier short sword fighters day.

[proficient]

while drow may not be a top notch race in most cases they are the only race that has the possibility of 20 int to start making them in my opinion the best race for the new mechanic rogue prestige class since no other race is capable of hitting 42 int befor buffs making them potentialy the highest repeater dps in the game, and while the community at large may not think repeater builds are strong enough with that kind of a damage mod when played well it just might make a mechanic rogue worth its spot in epic groups.

Just incase your wondering how i come to the 42 total

20 base
+4 from lvl ups
+4 from tome
+6 item
+6 exceptional from items (correct me if i'm wrong but the wiki says exceptional stats of different amounts stack)
+2 from the rogue capstone

[Aschbart]

To the OP:
I have three drow characters. For each of them I thoroughly considered what race to take, with human being the closest competitor in each case, But every time, for one reason or another my decision went towards drow. Ok, none of the characters were built with access to 32 point builds, so that made the decision easier, but for each character, a 32 point human would at best have been equal for the purposes I built the character for.

The first was a wizard (Int 20 Con 14), second a TWF pally (16 16 12 10 8 16), third a clogue (14 10 12 16 14 14). The last character was special as she was also built to hit all runes and levers, and thus required good starting values on Str, Int, Wis and Cha. In each case, a human would have been a more balanced choice, but in the first two cases hew ouldn't have been better, in in the latter case even a 32 point build would have gotten me a worse result.

I agree though that the enhancements are lackluster. I am using racial toughness, and the clogue also took enhancements for spot and search, while the pally started to pick up the drow melee enhancements (might not go to tier 2 though). The wizard... well, lets just say if Pale Master hadn't gotten a boost recently, I wouldn't have a lot of uses for all the action points!


To Proficient:
AFAIK you can only get exceptional bonuses of +1 and +2, for a total of +3. So with 5 levelup points you could get to 40 (which is still pretty good). I wonder though if it's worth to invest 16 build points on int initially, when you also need Dex and Con, and maybe don't want to completely dump Str (or do you?). Haven't put a lot of thought into this though, I'd really like to hear an expert's opinion

[Twerpp]

We need a way to sort the drizzt fanboy wanna be's from people bright enough to look at stats... I say leave drow gimped but also give us a filter by race on LFM so we can also auto-decline them.

[proficient]

Ya i completely wana dump str i can get enough to prevent being rendered helpless from items tomes and buffs when necissary and i dont need to carry around alot of heavy equipment so with int as my damage mod its unnessary anyway i thought there was a +3 exceptional stat mod for dragon touched armor and greensteel is why i listed +6 the wiki says its an option but 40 is good either way.

As far as dex and con go i just need to get my base dex to 19 wich with a lvl up and a +2 tome is easy and for con while my starting 13 is low since its not a stand there and take it while the healer heals you build having a few less hp in the end wont hurt to bad.

[orochinaga]

Also I agree that Drow should be able to have the choice of stat enhancements and then be forced to stick with it. Starting base stats should go unchanged however.

Agreed !!!

[elujin]

don't forgeth a free shiruken profincy !! :P

the enchantments should get some love only the rapier /shortsword is kinda worth it but thats it