R.I.P. Barbarian

[maddmatt70]

No sir, you are the fail for not understanding my post. I didn't say the devs dont care about anyone playing a THF toon. I said the devs are not and should not be concerned about the 1% THF twitch addict, dps benchmark walking calculating, SoS decked out uber toons that are crying havoc because they will now will be at 564.975dps instead of 621.345!
Those are the same people that are often saying that there isnt much challenge anymore at end game, that there isnt content to equal the gear they are using. If you build a toon purely to use ONE epic weapon, dont commit suicide if they altogether remove the weapon from the game, let alone nerf it slightly.

No one said your voice or ANY player's voice does not count. No one is saying you are not allowed to voice it and even criticize some aspect of the game. But you CANT possibly expect the devs to create a game that JUST caters to a very small minority. I can tell you for a fact, NONE of the nerf in U5 is going to affect 90% of the playerbase.

/signed

[Alintalkin]

No sir, you are the fail for not understanding my post. I didn't say the devs dont care about anyone playing a THF toon. I said the devs are not and should not be concerned about the 1% THF twitch addict, dps benchmark walking calculating, SoS decked out uber toons that are crying havoc because they will now will be at 564.975dps instead of 621.345!
Those are the same people that are often saying that there isnt much challenge anymore at end game, that there isnt content to equal the gear they are using. If you build a toon purely to use ONE epic weapon, dont commit suicide if they altogether remove the weapon from the game, let alone nerf it slightly.

No one said your voice or ANY player's voice does not count. No one is saying you are not allowed to voice it and even criticize some aspect of the game. But you CANT possibly expect the devs to create a game that JUST caters to a very small minority. I can tell you for a fact, NONE of the nerf in U5 is going to affect 90% of the playerbase.

Twitching aside, people move during combat. Not even in a twitching manner most of the time. They can tactically avoid damage, tumble away from spells, move themselves so that an enemy stands between them and another enemy. Tactics. Some people would not care if the animation was made so that you don't hit anymore moving then when standing still, they do care about a decrease in dps and the lost of tactics though. This is not the average MMO. Tactically play makes it fun, and the devs are removing it from THF. That is worst then the lost of twitching. The lost of that active combat that drives people to play the game, is worst then any other nerf in the history of DDO as it makes it like other, inferior MMO's.

The people who want there to be more challenge at endgame do not want the game to be dumbed down by nerfs but have increased NPC tactical play. I would love to see a line up of melee enemies blocking a hallway (can't just run past them) with the casters raining chaos in the back, those able to jump over the melees then get ambushed by stealthed rogue like characters. After they manage to escape the rogue ambush they hit a trap before getting to the casters. Something like that would be cool. That is making the game more interesting, more challenging. Making people be forced to stand still is the opposite. It is making it easier and utterly boring. of course the situation I described above would only be so interesting if it was random, which it should be. Seeing enemies actually acting prepared after a dungeon alert and not just buffed... that would almost be worth the DA system.

edit: Yes my example was rudimentary but still, could probably come up with more interesting scenarios if it wasn't late (not a night person)

Oh and let see, the changes in U5 effects:
Casters
TWF's
THF's
SnB's
though at least in the SnB case it is a buff of sorts (though quite dampened by the THF nerf) I believe that is still over 90% of the player base.

[Monkey_Archer]

No sir, you are the fail for not understanding my post. I didn't say the devs dont care about anyone playing a THF toon. I said the devs are not and should not be concerned about the 1% THF twitch addict, dps benchmark walking calculating, SoS decked out uber toons that are crying havoc because they will now will be at 564.975dps instead of 621.345!
Those are the same people that are often saying that there isnt much challenge anymore at end game, that there isnt content to equal the gear they are using. If you build a toon purely to use ONE epic weapon, dont commit suicide if they altogether remove the weapon from the game, let alone nerf it slightly.

No one said your voice or ANY player's voice does not count. No one is saying you are not allowed to voice it and even criticize some aspect of the game. But you CANT possibly expect the devs to create a game that JUST caters to a very small minority. I can tell you for a fact, NONE of the nerf in U5 is going to affect 90% of the playerbase.

Indeed sir!

The devs should never cater to the minority 1% of the population, especially not people that use tactics and skill to their advantage.
In fact, they should punish those skilled players who like to twitch.

Oh and of course they shouldn't redo the THF animations that allows twitching to attack faster... that would be direct and logical. No, they should nerf all THFs to punish the entire style for the "mistakes" of those twitch addicts....


Err... i have a question....
Do you play a high dps THF character at endgame?
Because 99% of the playerbase i know does, and all of them are getting nerfed whether they twitch or not

[Thrudh]

Twitching aside, people move during combat. Not even in a twitching manner most of the time. They can tactically avoid damage, tumble away from spells, move themselves so that an enemy stands between them and another enemy. Tactics.

Very true.

Tactically play makes it fun, and the devs are removing it from THF. That is worst then the lost of twitching. The lost of that active combat that drives people to play the game, is worst then any other nerf in the history of DDO as it makes it like other, inferior MMO's.

They are not removing active combat... They are removing DPS...

Look, I don't agree with the devs decision... The THF feats are fairly worthless now... But way too many of you are acting like you can't move anymore... Like that loss of DPS will gimp your characters...

I will keep moving tactically, and will still win fights with the monsters... It may take two more swings, but they will still die.

I would love to see a line up of melee enemies blocking a hallway (can't just run past them) with the casters raining chaos in the back, those able to jump over the melees then get ambushed by stealthed rogue like characters. After they manage to escape the rogue ambush they hit a trap before getting to the casters. Something like that would be cool. That is making the game more interesting, more challenging.

Sounds awesome

Making people be forced to stand still is the opposite. It is making it easier and utterly boring.

Standing still to gain 10% DPS is a good way to die 50% faster.... No one is forced to stand still... Standing still is a bad idea... Basically, just look at this like they removed glancing blows altogether...

I'll still be happy to put my vote in for the devs to add something to the THF feats to make them worthwhile again... I'd also like to see a buff to Barbarian damage boost...

[Thrudh]

Oh and let see, the changes in U5 effects:
Casters
TWF's
THF's
SnB's
though at least in the SnB case it is a buff of sorts (though quite dampened by the THF nerf) I believe that is still over 90% of the player base.

What he meant was... 90% of the population won't even notice the changes. 99% won't notice if they take the hp changes on Lamannia and port them to live.

[Thrudh]

As of now there is no reason to play barbarians PERIOD. They are like fighters that are slower and are masohcistic to boot. As of now, there is nothing really unique about DDO, since it is clear you are meant there to stand around and not manuever at all with your character.

OR... you could continue to move and do slightly less DPS...

Hmmm... maybe I'm warming to the idea... In some ways, it requires even more decisions during combat.... Stand ground, increase DPS? Keep moving, less DPS?

[shablala]

Since this is a Barbarian thread talking about 2HF I'll define "Playerbase" as 2HF Barbarians.
No glancing blows while moving wont effect 90%, it will effect 100% of them.

Since there are actually a ton of barbarians that stand still while fighting
Since there are many new players joining DDO on a daily basis and playing Barbs for the first time
Since there are many people that believe the barb class offers ALOT more than just glancing blows while moving
I would say your estimate of 100% is way off.

[shablala]

Indeed sir!

The devs should never cater to the minority 1% of the population, especially not people that use tactics and skill to their advantage.
In fact, they should punish those skilled players who like to twitch.

Oh and of course they shouldn't redo the THF animations that allows twitching to attack faster... that would be direct and logical. No, they should nerf all THFs to punish the entire style for the "mistakes" of those twitch addicts....


Err... i have a question....
Do you play a high dps THF character at endgame?
Because 99% of the playerbase i know does, and all of them are getting nerfed whether they twitch or not

I dont care if you put chocolate on it and drizzle some sprinkles, call it skill, call it magic, call it an amazing gaming gene that was passed down from parents, twitching was/is in my opinion exploiting the game mechanics. I am not saying you shouldnt move while fighting. But to say that it was intended to actually do more dps by opting for 2 swing animation vs 4 is ridiculous. It actually makes ALOT more sense that the game mechanic should reward the melee class with more dps by taking full animation not less.

Dude dont kid yourself, you do not "LIKE" to twitch. You're doing it because it was proven in the past that you can get more dps out of it. If the dps gurus showed you a way to increase your dps by 15% by jumping once to the left, 3 times to the right, tumble forward then backwards and finally clap your hands 3 times, you would be doing it tonight.

Finally, a "good" player is one that can adapt quickly to change. If your uber THF toon doesnt seem viable anymore because of the upcoming changes, then maybe your skill had nothing to do with it being uber to begin with.

[Monkey_Archer]

I dont care if you put chocolate on it and drizzle some sprinkles, call it skill, call it magic, call it an amazing gaming gene that was passed down from parents, twitching was/is in my opinion exploiting the game mechanics. I am not saying you shouldnt move while fighting. But to say that it was intended to actually do more dps by opting for 2 swing animation vs 4 is ridiculous. It actually makes ALOT more sense that the game mechanic should reward the melee class with more dps by taking full animation not less.

Dude dont kid yourself, you do not "LIKE" to twitch. You're doing it because it was proven in the past that you can get more dps out of it. If the dps gurus showed you a way to increase your dps by 15% by jumping once to the left, 3 times to the right, tumble forward then backwards and finally clap your hands 3 times, you would be doing it tonight.

Finally, a "good" player is one that can adapt quickly to change. If your uber THF toon doesnt seem viable anymore because of the upcoming changes, then maybe your skill had nothing to do with it being uber to begin with.

You seem to be missing the point.

When my longsword wielding ranger can stay mobile and out dps my barbarian, I call that broken.

I'm the guy that calls a 8 wizard/6 ranger/6 fighter viable. In fact, even more so now since that so called "gimped build" will also out dps my barb while moving. I call that sad.

My THF fighter is actually more viable then ever... twitching THF fighters are going to be among the top dps characters in U5.

Mobile THF barbarians are going to be among the lowest....

[Burninator]

Since there are actually a ton of barbarians that stand still while fighting
Since there are many new players joining DDO on a daily basis and playing Barbs for the first time
Since there are many people that believe the barb class offers ALOT more than just glancing blows while moving
I would say your estimate of 100% is way off.

Every single 2HF Barbarian will hit things while moving. Currently they get glancing blows while doing this, after U5 they wont. Do all barbs move all the time, no. Do all barbs hit things while moving, yes.

My 100% estimate is accurate.

I don't disagree with you that twitching is a broken and stupid mechanic with ******** timings on attack animations and should never have been in the game in the first place. But removing glancing blows while moving nerfs every 2HF rather than just twitching.

If they want to stop twitching then fix the problem rather than make blanket changes to affect all 2HF.

I wish people would stop trying to link the change to glancing blows exclusively to twitching. They really are two completely separate issues.

I understand you don't like twitching, what I don't understand is why you think nerfing all 2HF is a good idea (including GTHF feat that specifically mentions glancing while moving) just because you don't like twitching.

[smatt]

Hmm stopping by to see if people still care....

Yep... OK

[Irinis]

Yeah what is GTHF going to be after this? Did they update the descriptions at all on Lamm? Is it more double strikes at least? Or just nothing at all?

[Pyromaniac]

The fun has been seriously stripped for many people yet turbine sits silent. Turbine has a very tiny brain at the helm (and they should pray that their narrow sightedness does not end up burying them in the end) and the fact that they cannot recognize that makes this post even more pointless.

I can't argue with that.

Just give it time. They will give something to barbs that will get them back on par, just like every other class.

You have more faith than me that Turbine will recognize they made a mistake here. Even if they fix it later on, how many players will quit as a result. In addition it clearly shows that any of your characters can be made useless anytime due to poor decisions. No point in investing in DDO for me - time or money.

Was it really fun shuffling back and forth while attacking? I mean...really, was it fun?

Yes it was. If you stand still you might as well be playing a turn based game. For me that was the fun of DDO combat. That's also where skill comes into play.

What if every class had to stay still to get more than 70% of their ability? Is it time to have a heal spell only give 70% of its benefit if the caster of it is moving?


This was not a well designed way to 'fix' twitching. I guess doing it a proper way might have required spending some of the money that DDO is generating on the actual game.

[Emili]

Argue as one may... it all comes down to a simple thing. Is the character fun to play to each player anymore?

The way I see it, is like this... some people built a THF barbarian because they saw and liked big numbers delivered in a combat rather quickly... well that is not the case any more. Now that barbarian is not exactly the epitome of the character they once viewed in their mind and some other character will need to suffice that feeling when they play it. Barbarians bring a couple things to the table... decent DR, ok will save, various stages of rage, high HP, fast movement and 7 to 8 feats. The value of fast movement and DR, ok will save is somewhat diminished on the class as the whole comprises the class not one thing alone... i.e. dps + DR + HP + saves etc... = a barbarian recipe take away any of it to some degree without adding some of the other and the character is less.

Strange thing... when looking at my barb now I cannot help but think my kensai, kotc and rangers feel more adjustable and diverse for like or better results. Barbarians really do not have the diversity in combat those classes have, they are less taylored... UMD is more meaningful to them - cannot think of any use for umd on a barb when rage is counter to casting... feats? the fighters twice the lots, the pally built in defense and procs galore passively, likewise a ranger has some of the best spells and abilities in game.

Had turbine done the same for any class in terms of function people would disagree and complain... those who have the class one way and those without the class the other.

What if casters had to stand still to cast a FW and stay still and concentrate for the duration of the spell?

What if AA had to cast his arrow type for every single shot?

What if SnB ac was lower in movement but 10-30% and you must stand still to have it maxed?

What if reflex save lessened while standing still (flat-footed) effecting your evasion?

We'd all be here arguing over a different class... The OP's sentiment is that his Barb is less fun to play... I cannot deny there is a difference and I nor you or anyone can tell him contrary ... it's his barb and if he truely feels that way about about it ... it is to him.

FEATS! - for years I had been an advocate of meaningful, various and abundance of feats. Turbine reducing a three feat chain into less desirable leaves less to choose from. Not more.

[Thrudh]

You seem to be missing the point.

When my longsword wielding ranger can stay mobile and out dps my barbarian, I call that broken.

I'm the guy that calls a 8 wizard/6 ranger/6 fighter viable. In fact, even more so now since that so called "gimped build" will also out dps my barb while moving. I call that sad.

My THF fighter is actually more viable then ever... twitching THF fighters are going to be among the top dps characters in U5.

Mobile THF barbarians are going to be among the lowest....

Show the math... We did the math in another thread and barbs are not that bad off... They still do far more base damage than anyone... Fighters only beat them because of Haste Boost and when using their special weapon.

I'll agree with you that a barbarian should have the highest DPS... But their DPS in U5 is not that much smaller than fighter... barely enough to notice...

[Thrudh]

What if every class had to stay still to get more than 70% of their ability? Is it time to have a heal spell only give 70% of its benefit if the caster of it is moving?

Neat... I can make up numbers too... 85%!!! 43%!!

This was not a well designed way to 'fix' twitching.

You know, I agree with you guys here... but no developer is going take anyone seriously who states "Barbarians are 0% viable now. If you move, the party will wipe." (And don't think I'm exaggerating too much... you guys are really really close to that)

[Kriogen]

I didn't read all threads.

Why devs don't do like they did with ammo reload and casting long time ago ('06 or '07). As I remember, at start, you would reaload arrows only if standing still. And casting spells was not even possible (or it would break casting). At one point this was changed, so that you can reload and cast while moving. Moving would no longer break "attack animantion", but it can make you slower.

They could do the same with melee attack. Moving does not break attack chain. It sounds like a "bug". Why nerf, if it just needs a proper bug fix?

Oh, I don't know if its a nerf or a bug fix. Only dev can answer that. For me it counts as "evasion in full plate". Some said its a bug fix coz its not inline with PnP, but I said its "nerfing house rule".

Anyway, they changed it. I do know devs will do it. Like it or not. Take it or "vote" with your money.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Neat... I can make up numbers too... 85%!!! 43%!!

His numbers are actually quite accurate.
Glancing blows do make around 30% of a standing barbarians dps.
Glancing blows make around 15% of a moving barbarians dps pre U5.
Removing those 15% means that if a barbarian wants to do what he is supposed to (high dps), he needs to stand perfectly still, and have a healer glued to his ass.
Yes, that's a very fun way to play a barbarian.

[Thrudh]

Glancing blows do make around 30% of a standing barbarians dps.
Glancing blows make around 15% of a moving barbarians dps pre U5.

Math please.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Math please.

For my barb (raid buffed, epic SoS):
13 x Regular hit - ~100 + 6d6 = ~121
4 x Regular crit - ~424 + 6d6 = ~445
2 x 19-20 crit - ~742 + 6d6 = ~ 763
1 x miss
/
20
=
243.95 per regular attack
+
10 x Glancing blow (1 out of 2 when moving) - ~40 + 6d6 = ~61
/
20 attacks
=
274.45

243.95/274.45 = 0.888

That's 11.1% less dps when moving FOR AN EPIC SOS barb, lesser crit wepons are hit harder...

Oh, forgot that epic SoS is only a x3 multiplier now, feel free to do the new math yourself...