R.I.P. Barbarian

[Lorz]

The real question i have not seen Turbine answer is:

Is Twitching - working as intended or is it an exploit?
This is the question i have not seen asked/answered by Turbine.
The changes seemed aimed at removing twitching....and this would make me believe it is not working as intended.

Anybody got any official word from Turbine on this?

If its been answered by Turbine and i cant find it .... I blame the <Search> Button.

[Monkey_Archer]

The real question i have not seen Turbine answer is:

Is Twitching - working as intended or is it an exploit?
This is the question i have not seen asked/answered by Turbine.
The changes seemed aimed at removing twitching....and this would make me believe it is not working as intended.

Anybody got any official word from Turbine on this?

If its been answered by Turbine and i cant find it .... I blame the <Search> Button.

Well, we can either assume
1) Turbine has no position on twitching, one way or the other
or
2) Turbine has no position on twitching, one way or the other

Since they have no position on it, we can only assume that the glancing blow nerf is only directed towards moving combat. Because thats what it is. Twitching, which Turbine has no official position on, was only affected indirectly.

[pasterqb]

If that is true, then someone without certain raid gear is a waste of slot...

Oh you only have Min II? We can find someone who can do 15% more DPS than you.. Sorry, you're a waste of a slot...

Or someone who is a 19 fighter instead of a 20 fighter is a waste of a slot...

Oh, you don't have the capstone yet? We can find a 20 fighter who can do 8% more DPS than you... Sorry, you're a waste of a slot...

Can't take a 19 fighter on a Shroud run or a VoD run... Total waste of a slot...

Barbs do solid DPS... They are not gimp. They are not a waste of slot when one is looking for DPS.

Again, I agree with you guys that barbs should do the BEST DPS, but they sure aren't gimp with these changes... And they still have the highest base DPS... Fighters only out-class them with Haste Boost running, and with their signature weapon.

Let's get that Draco-lich raid released... We need a couple of high-end raids where the barbarian does the same DPS with Min II greataxe or a Min II maul, while the fighter with his greatsword speciality has to deal with 45 DR on elite.

Personally, I say get rid of glancing blows alltogether (probably contribute to lag), and buff barbarians some other way... Make the THF feats add straight damage... Make the Damage Boost enhancement worth using.

That is what i have been thinking since day 1. Tempest gets Stwf at Tempest II which i think is level 12(correct me if i'm wrong") and Zeal is a level 4 spell for a Pally so they get their bonus at level 14(?) and fighters get theirs at 20. How is that fair in anyway? The way i see it is i can't splash evasion anywhere into a fighter but can a Pally and Rangers get it at 9. My capped twf Fighter was in SoS the other day and he was getting torn up in fire. He was hit for 200+ without any anti fire gear on and even with it i doubt it would be pleasant. Even with a 45 resist item AND Firestorm greaves its still a great deal of damage while others laugh. If i had a nickel every time i saw an evasion type just blatantly stand in front of a fire ele i would be rich.

But i love the point you make too. Why allow a class in your party before it comes into its own.

Also Capstones are irrelevant to people rushing towards completionist. Get to 20 and True Reincarnate. So that means people trying to get the Fighter portion will be forced to go Monster or maybe an Intim thus pigeonholing that class even more.

[Boromirs]

Hm, well let me take a step back here and say lets give the devs a chance. The update hasn't gone live yet, and nothing has been finalized. We'll see where the dice lands before any judgement calls are made.

[Hydro]

Hm, well let me take a step back here and say lets give the devs a chance. The update hasn't gone live yet, and nothing has been finalized. We'll see where the dice lands before any judgement calls are made.

Lammannia is a Preview server not a test server, no major changes will ever be made to content on a preview server unless its game breaking. Unfortunatly this is not considered game breaking and will go live how it is.

[Boromirs]

Lammannia is a Preview server not a test server, no major changes will ever be made to content on a preview server unless its game breaking. Unfortunatly this is not considered game breaking and will go live how it is.

Then Turbine is in trouble, not a doom prediction (wish it was) but as of now what they did to Barbs is totally unacceptable. Their capstone is +2 to strength, why would any Barb go 20 Barb for something they already have more then enough of?

What I mean is they took something, they took something HUGE in a class. They need to give something back or else it just signals that Turbine doesn't care about it's pbase.

[Coldin]

Then Turbine is in trouble, not a doom prediction (wish it was) but as of now what they did to Barbs is totally unacceptable. Their capstone is +2 to strength, why would any Barb go 20 Barb for something they already have more then enough of?

What I mean is they took something, they took something HUGE in a class. They need to give something back or else it just signals that Turbine doesn't care about it's pbase.

*cough* And I quote

Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two-handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...arbarian_Might

Of course, we can continue to misconstrue facts and embellish nerfs if we wish.

Edit: Also http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Mighty_Rage

Mighty Rage
Usage: Passive
Upon reaching level 20, a barbarian's rage grows stronger. When raging, your base bonus to Strength and Constitution are increased to +8 and your morale bonus to Will saves is increased to +4.

[Boromirs]

*cough* And I quote

Your strength is increased by 2. PERIOD

Fixed that for ya. Things that don't exist in reality should not be considered.

Further, the glancing blows procs IF the capstone was fixed is totally meaningless as 90% of the time (except possibly raids) it WON'T be used with the crippling nerfs to glancing blows.

[Coldin]

Fixed that for ya. Things that don't exist in reality should not be considered.

Further, the glancing blows procs IF the capstone was fixed is totally meaningless as 90% of the time (except possibly raids) it WON'T be used with the crippling nerfs to glancing blows.

And Mighty Rage? Worthless, right?

I do love this logic. These things don't exist, but if they did, it wouldn't be useful or used.

*sigh* I give up. If you want to believe Barbarians are pointless now so much, feel free.

[joneb1999]

*rolls eyes emphatically*

Really. Barbarians still have rage, still have frenzy, still have crazy HP, still get faster run speed, still get innate DR.

All you lost was some DPS from twitching (debatably an exploit), some attack speed from a capstone correction (a bug), and the Epic SoS nerf.

If that has made barbarians obsolete, then they were already on life-support.

It wasnt just some dps, some attack speed and the epic sos nerf (I dont even know what that is so Im not *****ing about that). Do you know how much damage a barb can take in a matter of a few seconds if he uses the frenzies and is taking damage from a crowd? The only thing that makes that self damage worthwhile is the amount of monsters he could hurt real hard in the process and being able to move about to try to avoid as much monster given damage as possible to make up for low ac.

He is probably the most intensive clerics patient ever when played well even when he can move and get glancing blows. Correct me if Im wrong but if he wants to inflict full (non twitching) damage now including glancing blows he has to stand there and take full monster damage and self damage and still deal out much weaker dps than a fighter that can easily acheve a higher ac and no self damage.

If the 20th level capstone was changed to also negate the self damage and add 4 to dr I could run with that.

[Coldin]

It wasnt just some dps, some attack speed and the epic sos nerf (I dont even know what that is so Im not *****ing about that). Do you know how much damage a barb can take in a matter of a few seconds if he uses the frenzies and is taking damage from a crowd? The only thing that makes that self damage worthwhile is the amount of monsters he could hurt real hard in the process and being able to move about to try to avoid as much monster given damage as possible to make up for low ac.

He is probably the most intensive clerics patient ever when played well even when he can move and get glancing blows. Correct me if Im wrong but if he wants to inflict full (non twitching) damage now including glancing blows he has to stand there and take full monster damage and self damage and still deal out much weaker dps than a fighter that can easily acheve a higher ac and no self damage.

If the 20th level capstone was changed to also negate the self damage and add 4 to dr I could run with that.

Balances...

If you move, you deal less damage, but also get hit less. If you stand still, you get hit more, but deal more damage.

If you frenzy and take self damage, you get to deal more damage to your enemies. Making the capstone completely remove the vicious damage would completely remove the balance of frenzy.

As I don't have any DPS calculations with me comparing a THF Fighter Kensai to a THF Barbarian Frenzied Berserker, I don't even want to try to attempt to refute that as I'm sure someone will simply say "You don't play barbarians."

I will say this right now. After Mod 5 people will still be playing Barbarians, and still having fun with them. They won't be replaced by Fighters any more than Fighters will be replaced Rangers.

[PopeJual]

*cough* And I quote

Your strength is increased by 2, and when wielding two-handed weapons you have increased glancing blow damage and an increased chance of applying weapon special effects on glancing blows.

I might have been nice if Turbine had at least turned on the part in red when they turned off the increased speed part.

Maybe they could have fixed the WF THF enhancement while they were at it.

[shablala]

Fixed that for ya. Things that don't exist in reality should not be considered.

Further, the glancing blows procs IF the capstone was fixed is totally meaningless as 90% of the time (except possibly raids) it WON'T be used with the crippling nerfs to glancing blows.

90% of the time you are on the move using just 2 animations?! wow, now that's a dedicated twitcher!

[joneb1999]

Balances...

If you move, you deal less damage, but also get hit less. If you stand still, you get hit more, but deal more damage.

If you frenzy and take self damage, you get to deal more damage to your enemies. Making the capstone completely remove the vicious damage would completely remove the balance of frenzy.

As I don't have any DPS calculations with me comparing a THF Fighter Kensai to a THF Barbarian Frenzied Berserker, I don't even want to try to attempt to refute that as I'm sure someone will simply say "You don't play barbarians."

I will say this right now. After Mod 5 people will still be playing Barbarians, and still having fun with them. They won't be replaced by Fighters any more than Fighters will be replaced Rangers.

If the barb wasn't to get the nerf he is getting I would agree removing the vicious damage would be unbalanced but since the nerf it balances nicely. The good thing is we will see very soon what the effect will be and for certain the nerf is still that and certain barbarian feats and builds will become meaningless to plenty players who want to be as effective as possible. Most people drive to be the optimum they can be in a game (why choose to play if not to try your best) and so they will feel the need to change their barbs and people will pay to do that and Turbine win anyway. To that end the barb will still be around but many people playing them will still lose out unless they gimped their frenzied barb build anyway and suddenly it becomes meaningful lol.

[shablala]

It wasnt just some dps, some attack speed and the epic sos nerf (I dont even know what that is so Im not *****ing about that). Do you know how much damage a barb can take in a matter of a few seconds if he uses the frenzies and is taking damage from a crowd? The only thing that makes that self damage worthwhile is the amount of monsters he could hurt real hard in the process and being able to move about to try to avoid as much monster given damage as possible to make up for low ac.

He is probably the most intensive clerics patient ever when played well even when he can move and get glancing blows. Correct me if Im wrong but if he wants to inflict full (non twitching) damage now including glancing blows he has to stand there and take full monster damage and self damage and still deal out much weaker dps than a fighter that can easily acheve a higher ac and no self damage.

If the 20th level capstone was changed to also negate the self damage and add 4 to dr I could run with that.

If you are far enough away from the mob to evade their attack, you are also far away to land one. You people make it seem like you can do 350dps while staying mobile and evading mob melee attacks.

Hey even if all these complaints were legitimate, I think it is a positive thing. Maybe now Fighter/Palies and other intimidate tanks will be more useful instead of pure HP hate tanking 99% of the game. But I know, having someone intimidate and allow a barb to dish out the pain and a rogue pour on the SA is just sooooo hmm what's the word I am looking for??? oh it's so not DDO player mentality.

[joneb1999]

If you are far enough away from the mob to evade their attack, you are also far away to land one. You people make it seem like you can do 350dps while staying mobile and evading mob melee attacks.

Hey even if all these complaints were legitimate, I think it is a positive thing. Maybe now Fighter/Palies and other intimidate tanks will be more useful instead of pure HP hate tanking 99% of the game. But I know, having someone intimidate and allow a barb to dish out the pain and a rogue pour on the SA is just sooooo hmm what's the word I am looking for??? oh it's so not DDO player mentality.

Erm i didnt jump back from mobs to avoid being hit i jumped around them so that their back was to me often and so the blow would miss and it forced them to have to turn around which seems to actually stop them mid attack sometimes. Its a skill from fps - to strafe around or strafe jump around your opponent - but then you know that Im sure.

[Boromirs]

Honestly, I truly truly believe that the Devs do not the play the game anymore or at least make a passing effort. I think the passion is gone, and many of them are looking toward other projects. It's too bad.

And yes, the airships and carnival quest were really cool. But, dam it man, why drastically screw with these classes...and beyond that people's playstyles?!

[Thrudh]

Hm, well let me take a step back here and say lets give the devs a chance. The update hasn't gone live yet, and nothing has been finalized. We'll see where the dice lands before any judgement calls are made.

What? Who are you and where is the real Boromirs? You've been doing nothing but making huge exaggerated (and error-filled) judgement calls for the last 3 weeks.