R.I.P. Barbarian

[smatt]

As a Tempest III who no longer gets his extra off-hand attack in the third chain, I will now break my animation all the time. Tested on lamaland, seems to work and get you more attacks.

Fix one thing, break something else . . .

Good job.... Off hand attacks will be moved to end of chain... YOU HAVE JUST NERFED TWF.....

[TheDjinnFor]

that's all fine and dandy, but what does that have to do with swinging a 2-handed weapon faster? Especially when moving back and forth with your feat at just the right time? You're talking about hitting harder, yet the twitch mechanic affects attack speed. Give back the mobile glancing blows, so we can maintain dps while running around, but I have yet to hear from anyone who 'twitches' what combat tactic is it supposed to be emulating?

It reminds me of that olympics arcade game where you made your guy run faster by wacking two buttons as fast as you could. At least in that game you could relate the alternating buttons with the movement of each leg. Maybe we could use a similar mechanic for each combat style. Tap your buttons faster and build up a more powerful strike with a 2hander <insert batman KAPOW here>. taps your buttons faster and the monks fists fly <BIP BOP BIP>. Tap your buttons faster and your archer jumps up and down flinging arrows <ZIPPITY DO DA>. tap the buttons faster and the assassin deftly removes the dingleberry from a foe's arse in record time <WEEEHOOO>. At least these button 'skills' would relate to the action in game.

Proper footwork is important while fighting (heck, it is any athletic activity). I don't swing swords around, but I can tell you that as a martial artist, you're going to kick and recover pretty slow (slower attack speed) if you're off balance when you do so, and to create openings for attack (i.e. more attacks per minute) you can use fakes and miss-steps to trick the opponent into making a mistake, and then move to exploit one when he does so.

Now, tapping left and right or forward and back to simulate proper footwork isn't necessarily the most realistic of interpretations, but when you've got a limited number of buttons on a keyboard and a limited number of fingers to press them, you really have to simplify complex actions. After all, you jump with just one button, the space bar, and jumping over the heads of enemies can be considered a pretty complex task!

Honestly, I thought that you were saying that THF folks liked to do the twitch because they liked the twitch itself and that any combat benefit was just icing on the cake. I didn't understand *why* you would think that, but that's what I got from your statements. I understand what you were trying to say much better now, though.

My bad, then.

As a side question, do you think that Sword and Board folks and TWF folks should get more attacks per minute for twitching? If you think that twitching is worthwhile for THF folks, I'd expect a similar desire for a twitching mechanic for the other combat styles.

Certainly. Though I have to say, I'd really rather these mechanics be intentionally created by the developers so that they can become a more integrated part of the game. Sort of like my cleave example, or some bull-rush mechanics, or grappling, or whatever.

Exploiting attack animations is an exploit, after all, but if players don't have anything else... well, what did you expect, devs?

[Chai]

Proper footwork is important while fighting (heck, it is any athletic activity). I don't swing swords around, but I can tell you that as a martial artist, you're going to kick and recover pretty slow (slower attack speed) if you're off balance when you do so, and to create openings for attack (i.e. more attacks per minute) you can use fakes and miss-steps to trick the opponent into making a mistake, and then move to exploit one when he does so.

Exactly. I currently know 2 staff forms, a sword form, and a double dagger form, not to mention 7 or 8 unarmed forms, and in each, the footwork and correct stances are the foundation. Understanding that all of the power is generated in the core of the body and not in the arms and shoulders like western combat experts would have you believe, is the first step. Breaking people of the mindset that strength is an upper body thing is harder than teaching the forms themselves. Footwork and core movement are the key.

Now, tapping left and right or forward and back to simulate proper footwork isn't necessarily the most realistic of interpretations, but when you've got a limited number of buttons on a keyboard and a limited number of fingers to press them, you really have to simplify complex actions. After all, you jump with just one button, the space bar, and jumping over the heads of enemies can be considered a pretty complex task!

Any martial artist with a melee weapon back in the day clearly understood that to stand still was to die. Not only is your core not moving fast enough to generate any kind of momentum for an attack, you also make an awesome archery target just standing there. The sword doesnt generate the power for the parry. The core movement of the practitioners body does, and the weapon is just in place to intercept the other weapon, as an extension of the practitioners body itself. This is how 5'2" tall 125 lb people could cut through armor, and the human body, with one blow. Imagine what missing a parry means...

The chinese used to create tests called the hall of wooden men, which would test a practitioners skill in movement during combat. It was basically a bunch of large wooden gears with blades attached. Passing the test meant you lived, and failing the test meant clean up in isle 7. this test was meant to emulate the importance os staying mobile during combat.

I always thought DDO was more realistic because of the fast pace and the mobile combat system. In many other games, people do their best DPS nailed to the ground and casters cant move when casting. This is the main reason why I dont play those other MMOs.

[Chai]

As a Tempest III who no longer gets his extra off-hand attack in the third chain, I will now break my animation all the time. Tested on lamaland, seems to work and get you more attacks.

Fix one thing, break something else . . .

So does this mean we are ending twitching, by moving back to the days of spaz attacking? Or, is this another different kind of TWF "twitch" completely?

[krud]

Proper footwork is important while fighting (heck, it is any athletic activity). I don't swing swords around, but I can tell you that as a martial artist, you're going to kick and recover pretty slow (slower attack speed) if you're off balance when you do so, and to create openings for attack (i.e. more attacks per minute) you can use fakes and miss-steps to trick the opponent into making a mistake, and then move to exploit one when he does so.

Now, tapping left and right or forward and back to simulate proper footwork isn't necessarily the most realistic of interpretations, but when you've got a limited number of buttons on a keyboard and a limited number of fingers to press them, you really have to simplify complex actions. After all, you jump with just one button, the space bar, and jumping over the heads of enemies can be considered a pretty complex task!

You've just managed to work in something that bluff or improved feint should do (fakes, etc) into justifying the 'twitch'. Moving to create a better opening is represented by flanking attacks (better to-hit). Likewise, off balance attacks should be represented by a penalty to-hit. Being balanced is supposed to be par for the course for effective combat. You should only get your regular bonuses for doing something that is supposed to be standard operating procedure. If jumping up and down at the right time accomplished the same thing, it too would find some obscure explanation justifying its existence in game by those who use it.

[TheDjinnFor]

You've just managed to work in something that bluff or improved feint should do (fakes, etc) into justifying the 'twitch'. Moving to create a better opening is represented by flanking attacks (better to-hit). Likewise, off balance attacks should be represented by a penalty to-hit. Being balanced is supposed to be par for the course for effective combat. You should only get your regular bonuses for doing something that is supposed to be standard operating procedure. If jumping up and down at the right time accomplished the same thing, it too would find some obscure explanation justifying its existence in game by those who use it.

I agree there could be other ways to implement these things, and that's what I want: I want the developers to make a conscious effort in making these kinds of things a part of combat. I also fully acknowledge that stepping left and right or forward and back isn't a perfect representation of how fighting works in real life and doesn't magically make you swing faster.

I disagree, however, with your complete dismissal of the real-world interpretation that I attached to twitch fighting.

For example, improved feint or bluff could work that way, but they don't, and Turbine hasn't given any indication that they'll change it. Moving to exploit an opening, such as a gaping hole underneath the enemies guard, can only usually (if he is facing you, of course) done by a step forward (and maybe slightly to one side) toward the opponent. Ever seen twitch fighters use forward steps? In fact, one of the best ways to twitch is to step forward towards the enemy so that you don't get moved out of position as much.

It's not perfect, but it's not completely unrealistic.

[Thrudh]

Twitching is just silly, in my opinion....

But I love the tactical movement of this game... If I'm fighting 3 trolls, I can usually keep 1 troll between me and the other two by circling, tumbling, timing my attacks, using the terrain to my advantage...

That's tactical combat.

Twitching back and forth while beating on a stationary boss monster is not an example of "leet skills".

The devs DO need to give the THF feats some other kinds of bonuses... I'm not going to stop moving in normal combat, so if the THF feats don't offer any benefit there, I'm going to swap them out for something else... (part of me likes that idea... 3 extra feats opens some possibilities for my THF build).

The only time I'm completely still is when I'm fighting the boring raid bosses...

Again, I agree with you that they need to fix the THF feats.. I wish they had found a better way to remove twitching but that would probably require redoing all the animations, which is costly.

[Monkey_Archer]

Exactly. I currently know 2 staff forms, a sword form, and a double dagger form, not to mention 7 or 8 unarmed forms, and in each, the footwork and correct stances are the foundation. Understanding that all of the power is generated in the core of the body and not in the arms and shoulders like western combat experts would have you believe, is the first step. Breaking people of the mindset that strength is an upper body thing is harder than teaching the forms themselves. Footwork and core movement are the key.



Any martial artist with a melee weapon back in the day clearly understood that to stand still was to die. Not only is your core not moving fast enough to generate any kind of momentum for an attack, you also make an awesome archery target just standing there. The sword doesnt generate the power for the parry. The core movement of the practitioners body does, and the weapon is just in place to intercept the other weapon, as an extension of the practitioners body itself. This is how 5'2" tall 125 lb people could cut through armor, and the human body, with one blow. Imagine what missing a parry means...

The chinese used to create tests called the hall of wooden men, which would test a practitioners skill in movement during combat. It was basically a bunch of large wooden gears with blades attached. Passing the test meant you lived, and failing the test meant clean up in isle 7. this test was meant to emulate the importance os staying mobile during combat.

I always thought DDO was more realistic because of the fast pace and the mobile combat system. In many other games, people do their best DPS nailed to the ground and casters cant move when casting. This is the main reason why I dont play those other MMOs.

Got me thinking...
Twitching does actually emulate this sort of realistic advantage to timed movement, but doesnt do it in the correct way. Realistically, you would be moving back or to the side to avoid incoming hits, and then lunging forward to generate momentum for more powerful blows, not a faster attack speed or AOE damage.

So, in the spirit of realistic combat, perhaps instead of getting glancing blows while moving THFs should get a 2x bonus to strength while moving to emulate momentum instead of 1.5 stationary? Perhaps as a replacement for GTHF, or a separate feat.

[Emili]

It is apparent to me that their thought on the matter is not only to reduce the calculations for THF glances but to discourage movement in combat. You all do understand that movement is also overhead? You hit a movement key and the character needs to check colision of objects in the way, and plot each coordinate out ... and so forth.

[Boromirs]

It is apparent to me that their thought on the matter is not only to reduce the calculations for THF glances but to discourage movement in combat. You all do understand that movement is also overhead? You hit a movement key and the character needs to check colision of objects in the way, and plot each coordinate out ... and so forth.

Movement in combat was what made this game unique and exciting to play. Why the devs are trying to kill their BEST ASSET in the game is beyond me... thats like taking your best seller product and then saying "Meh, lets just stop making this..."

[Hydro]

Either way around it this patch is a mess, the combat changes are still in Beta, they have destroyed THF, Ranged Combat is Fubar, Monks and Pallies get multiple double strikes, and who knows what I am missing or what will be discovered when this mess goes live.

It too bad also, the guild ships and epic token changes are really interesting and look like fun but since my 2/3 of my characters are basically broken next patch I personally am not going to bother even touching it for a little bit.

I have posted a very constructive post explaining to the devs how barbarians are pretty bad next patch, I have posted videos and time reports of DPS tests but no dev response. All most barbarians needed was a simple post saying that they are aware of our concerns and will balance accordingly... instead we get nothing.

Well I cancelled my VIP account and explained all my concerns with the combat changes, Epic Sos nerfs and the devs actions without thinking so I hope that they get the message. I should be back as soon as they fix their mess but as it stands currently this is not a game I want to log into when the patch goes live.

Fix the combat please Dev's, please dont turn your back on the VIP's, and for god sake dont charge me real money to fix your mistakes.

[PopeJual]

Ranged Combat is Fubar,

Is ranged combat differently fubar on Llama than it is currently in live? Or is this just the general ranged-combat-is-fubar that is DDO's general combat slant?

I didn't see any comments on changes to ranged combat, but I may have just missed something.

[shablala]

No I think he is posting this since many people have strong opinions about the time and effort they have put into something and the fact the turbine (even though they are the owners) feel it appropriate to break apart peoples characters and play styles that some have put years into making.

Some people might understand this, others simply wont.

This update started off by stating TWF was going to be modified to help fix lag, It has been shown that it has not helped, but we are at a point where virtually every melee - caster character is modified, play styles broken, items that have been in game for months - years changed.

The fun has been seriously stripped for many people yet turbine sits silent. Turbine has a very tiny brain at the helm (and they should pray that their narrow sightedness does not end up burying them in the end) and the fact that they cannot recognize that makes this post even more pointless.

eh my opinion doesn`t matter anyhow, so I will end here

With all due respect, yes your opinion does not matter when it only represent a very small population of the playerbase.
If you had JUST started playing the first day U5 is up, you wouldnt complain about anything. Just because a few people have spend a lot of time building uber characters, does not mean Turbine should stay away from any balancing or updating that would effect those few.
Do I think it sucks to put in hours into a character under a certain game mechanic, only to have a change affect it? of course. But the game does not center aroung "MY" character.

I do however think that Turbine should offer free lesser hearts of wood

[Hydro]

With all due respect, yes your opinion does not matter when it only represent a very small population of the playerbase.
If you had JUST started playing the first day U5 is up, you wouldnt complain about anything. Just because a few people have spend a lot of time building uber characters, does not mean Turbine should stay away from any balancing or updating that would effect those few.
Do I think it sucks to put in hours into a character under a certain game mechanic, only to have a change affect it? of course. But the game does not center aroung "MY" character.

I do however think that Turbine should offer free lesser hearts of wood

Fail, THF is only a small amount of players so the devs shouldn't care? My statements have been for THF in general not just Barbarians, but especially Barbarians because that is what I spent the most time testing.

Test these changes then talk to me, any player in this game deserves to have their voice heard when posting feedback for developers on a test server.

[Boromirs]

As of now there is no reason to play barbarians PERIOD. They are like fighters that are slower and are masohcistic to boot. As of now, there is nothing really unique about DDO, since it is clear you are meant there to stand around and not manuever at all with your character.

[Coldin]

*rolls eyes emphatically*

Really. Barbarians still have rage, still have frenzy, still have crazy HP, still get faster run speed, still get innate DR.

All you lost was some DPS from twitching (debatably an exploit), some attack speed from a capstone correction (a bug), and the Epic SoS nerf.

If that has made barbarians obsolete, then they were already on life-support.

[Burninator]

*rolls eyes emphatically*

Really. Barbarians still have rage, still have frenzy, still have crazy HP, still get faster run speed, still get innate DR.

All you lost was some DPS from twitching (debatably an exploit), some attack speed from a capstone correction (a bug), and the Epic SoS nerf.

If that has made barbarians obsolete, then they were already on life-support.

...and no glancing blows while moving at all (forget debating about twitching).
Even ignoring twitching, movement is almost constant for smart tactical play.
A GTHF feat that adds glancing blows while moving (as per description) except you can't glance while moving.

While I may twitch attack atm, personally I think it's a dumb mechanic and couldn't care if they removed it. But trying to kill it by removing glancing blows from moving isn't the smart way to do it.

[die]

Does this mean a good old "Doom!!!!!" is in order?

yes , DOOOM

[shablala]

Fail, THF is only a small amount of players so the devs shouldn't care? My statements have been for THF in general not just Barbarians, but especially Barbarians because that is what I spent the most time testing.

Test these changes then talk to me, any player in this game deserves to have their voice heard when posting feedback for developers on a test server.

No sir, you are the fail for not understanding my post. I didn't say the devs dont care about anyone playing a THF toon. I said the devs are not and should not be concerned about the 1% THF twitch addict, dps benchmark walking calculating, SoS decked out uber toons that are crying havoc because they will now will be at 564.975dps instead of 621.345!
Those are the same people that are often saying that there isnt much challenge anymore at end game, that there isnt content to equal the gear they are using. If you build a toon purely to use ONE epic weapon, dont commit suicide if they altogether remove the weapon from the game, let alone nerf it slightly.

No one said your voice or ANY player's voice does not count. No one is saying you are not allowed to voice it and even criticize some aspect of the game. But you CANT possibly expect the devs to create a game that JUST caters to a very small minority. I can tell you for a fact, NONE of the nerf in U5 is going to affect 90% of the playerbase.

[Burninator]

I can tell you for a fact, NONE of the nerf in U5 is going to affect 90% of the playerbase.

Since this is a Barbarian thread talking about 2HF I'll define "Playerbase" as 2HF Barbarians.
No glancing blows while moving wont effect 90%, it will effect 100% of them.