A treatise regarding the new guild features

[geoffhanna]

After examining the new guild features, in person on Lamannia as well as on the forums, I've come to some conclusions.

The guild features add a lot of richness to the game. I love the airships. I've been waiting to build my keep and attract followers (do people still do that or was that AD&D only?). But I do have feedback. Here is the executive summary; details to follow.

• Airships and airship amenities are too easy to earn
• Everything is too transitory; there should be more permanence
• There are significant misses in the available feature list
• Most or all of the buff stations on the boat need a minimum level
• Renown decay (as implemented to-date) is going to have unexpected side effects
• I want the ability to turn off Astral Diamond donations

Please bear in mind that I am in a decently-sized guild with a very active core. The Halfling Commandos are likely to come out of this on the plus side, maybe very much so. I bring these points because I believe they are important, not because of some effect on me personally.

[geoffhanna]

(1) Airships and airship amenities are too easy to earn

After all this time waiting for guild features, if we are able to earn as much as DDO-Daily did on Lamannia in two weeks it will not feel like much of an accomplishment. I would not mind seeing all of the minimums for everything double or triple or more. Even renown (although that assumes a matching change to decay).

OTOH maybe the goal is to make sure the new features are easily accessible to everyone. If so, you (Turbine) have overthought all this renown stuff. Just give them to us.

(2) Everything is too transitory; there should be more permanence

There ought to be something in this new feature set that you can count on. Having a min-level boat with nothing on it does not count. I have a specific suggestion, but really, the goal of this is simple, make sure that we will always have something worthwhile to show for our efforts even if the *&%! hits the fan in the future. The specific suggestion is one example of how this might be done, but there are others.

The suggestion: award us one permanent hookpoint every 15 guild levels. Or every 20. This lets each guild choose which amenities are truly core for themselves and allows them to always count on having access to them once they've been unlocked. There will still be plenty of "regular" hookpoints that require grind/churn to keep populated.

A simpler suggestion would be to rearrange some of the more commonly requested features to have lower minimums and then raise the renown decay level above them, but that requires agreement on exactly which are more commonly requested.

(3) There are significant misses in the available feature list

• A guild message board
• A guild event calendar or schedule
• A guild mail system
• A spirit binder
• Transport to the Inspired Quarter and/or the quori-infected island who's name escapes me

In addition, the guild bank and the boats themselves point out that we need more ranks in the guilds and more ability to assign privileges within those ranks. Please rework the guild ranks to include more than just members (with no privileges) and officers (with every privilege).

(4) Most or all of the buff stations on the boat need a minimum level

Right now, every DDO-Daily member can pick up +1 in every stat, +3 to hit, +2 damage, DR 1/-, +4 vs fear and +1 to all saves, +1 to all skills, +3 AC, +5 to balance and haggle, 10% healing amplification, protection from evil and +1 to enchantment and illusion DCs. Some of these stack, some do not.

On a capped character these are cute nice-to-haves. On a level one character they are crazy powerful. Please give the buff stations a minimum level that is appropriate to the power they grant.

(5) Renown decay (as implemented to-date) is going to have unexpected side effects

Please don't encourage guilds to prune inactives. Please don't make guild members wish we were pruning more often or encourage them to change to guilds that prune aggressively. Please don't put guild members in a situation where they have to wonder who is pulling their weight and who is not. Or worse, try to actually track it.

50 DKP minus for you on this one Turbine! <--- see, its a joke. But there are DKP trackers for a reason and I never want one

(6) I want the ability to turn off Astral Diamond donations

I don't want anyone in my guild to feel that they are encouraged to spend real money on our airship.

[Coldin]

Just would like to comment on the progress of DDO Daily, and how we got that much renown so quickly.

Basically, the system was working very poorly. Chests and end rewards had a very small chance of dropping renown, and it was generally much quicker to simply find a group of monsters, kill them, and check for renown. When we found out about bags on epic quests dropping 500-1000 renown, we quickly put a lot of effort there. The system was definitely not working as intended when we could quickly grind up 5 levels in one night.

Also, I hear a few people commenting about how quickly DDO Daily got to level 55. I'd like to remind everyone that we got to level 55 because the devs helped us out after we won the contest.

Personally, I think the renown gathering is still too slow after the update on Friday. It feels too much like a grind.

As for the other points.

I would like a few things that are more permanent additions to the airship. The tavern person is one of those that I'd almost just like to be able to buy as an addition to the ship, and not have it take up a hookpoint. And I do wish he sold bacon...

In-game guild message system is the only thing that I would really like. The ability to send a mail to all the characters in the guild, or maybe simply to all the officers.

Renown decay does feel aggressive. You take major hits of renown each day. Some people had a good suggestion of letting renown earned count against decay, so the per-day loss (or gain) won't seem so...significant and heart-crushing.

[iamsamoth0]

The suggestion: award us one permanent hookpoint every 15 guild levels. Or every 20. This lets each guild choose which amenities are truly core for themselves and allows them to always count on having access to them once they've been unlocked. There will still be plenty of "regular" hookpoints that require grind/churn to keep populated.

Conceivably some middle ground here. +1
and thanks for showing me how to underline!
May I incorporate this?

I finally had a more literal illustration of my frustration with the implementation of this. I liken it to buying this brand new beautiful yacht and you don't even get to put your luggage down.

[geoffhanna]

Just would like to comment on the progress of DDO Daily, and how we got that much renown so quickly ...

How long do you think it would have taken to earn what DDO-Daily has now, with the current set of renown drop rules?

[Coldin]

How long do you think it would have taken to earn what DDO-Daily has now, with the current set of renown drop rules?

A guild of 10 active players. Rough guess is a few months.

Level 20 and the first airship would be a bit quicker. Maybe a couple weeks if the guild was pushing for it.

[dwelsh99]

A guild of 10 active players. Rough guess is a few months.

Level 20 and the first airship would be a bit quicker. Maybe a couple weeks if the guild was pushing for it.

This is good news. At least the first big step wont take long. I would expect higher levels would be more challanging to acquire.

[MateCarefor]

Excellent suggestions and presentation - I hope a dev reviews and considers some of your presented options.

Special emphasis on the buffing stations - not only do they seem overpowered, am I the only one chuckling that we were told about concern for lag and yet are given options to add even more data and calculations per character, per event? <-- apologies for de-rail

/signed

[Zenako]

Excellent suggestions and presentation - I hope a dev reviews and considers some of your presented options.

Special emphasis on the buffing stations - not only do they seem overpowered, am I the only one chuckling that we were told about concern for lag and yet are given options to add even more data and calculations per character, per event? <-- apologies for de-rail

/signed

Most of the buffs are static boosts, so no variables to calculate each time. I don't see most of those buffs adding much if anything to the processing time or calculations during combat.

Everything about the rate of renown gain by DDO-Daily needs to be kept in context. As Coldin mentioned, the were also helped later on. There were also a number renown earning situations that could be easily abused to expedite the process. Most of those involved the dropped bags of renown. That part of the process is largely changed now, with the bulk of renown now showing up in chests.

[geoffhanna]

IIRC, at least one dev has posted that what we have now on Lamannia is what we will have live regarding renown rates (earning and decaying). Any adjustments will have to occur after the update.

[Coldin]

IIRC, at least one dev has posted that what we have now on Lamannia is what we will have live regarding renown rates (earning and decaying). Any adjustments will have to occur after the update.

Link?

[geoffhanna]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=73

[geoffhanna]

Conceivably some middle ground here. +1
and thanks for showing me how to underline!
May I incorporate this?

I finally had a more literal illustration of my frustration with the implementation of this. I liken it to buying this brand new beautiful yacht and you don't even get to put your luggage down.

I'm not sure what parts you wish to incorporate, but sure, incorporate away

And thanks for the kind words

[Coldin]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=73

What that quote says, and what you're interpreting are different.

Madfloyd is saying that even after this system goes live, they plan to do more changes to renown gathering and decay as they see fit.

There's a good chance we could see more small tweaks in this week. Though, probably by Friday what we see is what we'll get for Update 5, at least until a patch/hotfix comes out.

[geoffhanna]

It is not an important point in any case. Of course the renown rates are subject to change after release, everything is.

I want to emphasize that only a small portion of my feedback involves renown rates.

[iamsamoth0]

I'm not sure what parts you wish to incorporate, but sure, incorporate away

And thanks for the kind words

Quasi-permanent hookpoints should be a consideration. It's a good idea.
It helps me frame and flesh out my suggestions. Here http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...7&postcount=53.
Feel free to post feedback.

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for the ideas, everyone.

I really like the idea of a guild mail system. We should have though of that.

Lots of good feedback here for us to consider for a future update (we're not done with Guilds as of Upate 5).

[Solmage]

Hey Geof, +1 for making some very solid suggestions and some very good points. You're right, the current system will lead to (some) guilds or guildies wondering if those "free-loaders" who are causing the renown to drop simply by being there "because they don't care" (and yet who will most likely nontheless use all the buff stations and what not) shouldn't be pruned together with any inactive or more casual members.

As for the list of critical amenities that are missing, please don't forget the half-a-pult" - I mean, if we had cats, a catapult would be essential too, but as things stand, the former is really just essential.

[iamsamoth0]

Thanks for the ideas, everyone.

I really like the idea of a guild mail system. We should have though of that.

Lots of good feedback here for us to consider for a future update (we're not done with Guilds as of Upate 5).

I sincerely hope there is some middle ground on suggestions from the playerbase and the vision of the development crew.
This is encouraging. Thanks again! +1

[suitepotato]

A guild of 10 active players. Rough guess is a few months.

Level 20 and the first airship would be a bit quicker. Maybe a couple weeks if the guild was pushing for it.

So guilds with only a few active players are going to be taking a month plus for the airship, where the goodies emplacements happen. Not fun. When absent VC people come back, we won't have much of anything left. I have not a lot to offer right now in recruiting. Guild ranks with fine tuning of powers to delegate would have been way ahead on my list.