Raid Loot n Resources

[Dragonhyde]

Eh I look at the lfm requiring pots/plat etc to join, laugh and click on the one that does not require that. As for raid loot and rolling, I do not expect anyones loot to be up for roll so I join raids with the thought that I will need to pull what I want.

[Vhlad]

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if no loot is pulled?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if loot is pulled but kept by those who pull it?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if loot is pulled but only up for roll to a class different than the puggers class?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if they get banished at the end of part 3?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if they **** up in some way that increases resource use, even if raid loot is kept in guild?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if they pull loot themselves but are not given the chance to roll on loot that someone else pulled?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if the raid wipes?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if the server or raid instance crashes/bugs?
Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if someone trades/sells/has an open auction for raid loot that they pull?

Where do you draw the line?

IMO if you join a raid you should be willing to contribute as best you can in both resource use and character performance. You are paying for a possible completion and your 1/6 chance. You have no right to other peoples 1/6 chance.

EDIT
There is also a very important distinction to make:
puggers can keep whatever loot they pull
people in guilds that have an in-guild priority policy for loot often cannot: if they do not call the item they must put it for guild roll, even if they want to loot the item themselves.

example: I'm doing TOD with 8 guildies and none of us call ravager ring. I'm on my barb, I pull ravager ring, and I don't have it yet. I want it, and 2 other guildy barbs want it too. Since none of us called it, it goes up for guild roll. Whereas if I was a pugger I'd be able to loot it. If one of the puggers wants the ring and rolls with us, should he be freed from covering any resource use if his roll is ignored? (again, this is for a ring that I pulled, that I want for myself, but that I cannot loot straight away due to guild policy).

While I say this now, I haven't logged on in many weeks.

Have nub guilds hit end-game, and are they putting underpowered raids together and blowing through resources, and expecting everyone to pay while keeping all loot in-guild?

My position is from the standpoint that experienced guilds with good composition and contribution are leading these raids. However, if I joined a group of total gimps who are ill-equipped & ill-prepared and they're supplementing their lack of gear/skill via ddostore mana pots or plat farmer mana pots, I wouldn't be too keen on covering them.

For experienced guilds, puggers are getting a fast run with a good shot at completion, their 1/6 chance, and unneeded loot pulled by the well-equipped guild members. This to me is worth the cost of covering an equal share of the minor resources used to complete an epic velah, epic DQ, hard/elite TOD, etc.

For nub guilds, puggers are getting a slow run with a poor shot at completion (or a good shot at an expensive completion), their 1/6 chance, and are a lot less likely to see any loot go unneeded, as it is pulled by poorly equipped nubs.

On one hand, nubs that struggle with content need their resource use covered more than experienced guilds. On the other hand, they're nubs. What do you lose if you **** them off - become blacklisted by nub groups? Isn't that a good thing?

It would be unlikely to happen to me though. If I see a pug led by players or guilds I dont know, I either don't join or myddo everyone before joining. If I got in a nub group where resource use was high, I would contribute, even if they kept all loot. I would, however, be sure to avoid their raids in the future. In fact, even if they shared loot I would avoid their raids, because nub groups just aren't fun (well, actually, nub groups can be entertaining. but they aren't fun if the goal is speed/efficiency).

1 caveat: if the grind in DDO was reduced I'd be a lot nicer to new players. The game would be less about increasing the efficiency of running shroud for the 1500th time.

[Gkar]

If the pugger is not eligible for raid loot they should just drop party before they start. Why would they contribute time and effort to the party if they can't share in the reward?

[Freeman]

If the pugger is not eligible for raid loot they should just drop party before they start. Why would they contribute time and effort to the party if they can't share in someone else's reward?

Isn't that what you are really asking? They have the same chances of seeing raid loot drop in their name as anyone else in the group. Beyond that, you are trying to restrict what someone else can do with their loot. It doesn't matter if they only let guild roll, certain classes, or people with the letter 'Q' in their name. It is their choice what to do with it. You have no control over what another person does with their loot.

If you want to make it a rule in your raid that any raid item not looted must be put up for roll and open to everyone, go ahead. However, if you tell me ahead of time that *I* am not allowed to decide who or what to do with my loot, then I'll be dropping from that raid immediately.

Edit: As for resources, ask yourself this: Would you have contributed if no raid loot had dropped, avoiding any childish "But I want it!" arguments? That's the only thing that should matter.

[Nezichiend]

If the pugger is not eligible for raid loot they should just drop party before they start. Why would they contribute time and effort to the party if they can't share in the reward?

Personally, I rarely see any loot I want in a chest. So if it is a completion, that is 1 closer to my 20th. Completion = reward by itself.

[Ssmooth]

I think maybe this need to be reworded for some people.

Let's say you join an Epic von 6 run on your beater. You are experienced, know who your grouping with(your a pugger on their run) and due to no fault of your own, thing go south and the healers go through 5+ pots a piece. Now this guild's loot policy does not allow for puggers to share in loot rolls, if said loot if up for roll.

I think the OP's question is: If the above senerio is true, and pot counts are given out and compensation for said resourses used is requested, should you feel obligated to help with reimbursement knowing that if you don't pull X-loot, you have 0% chance to even roll on loot?

IMO, I've gotten burned being the pugger healer in situations like this, but then again, I reimburse for this very reason.

I guess, I don't like the short end of the stick, so I don't give it to others. I would rather complete and spend the resourses if healing.

[Gkar]

Isn't that what you are really asking? They have the same chances of seeing raid loot drop in their name as anyone else in the group. Beyond that, you are trying to restrict what someone else can do with their loot. It doesn't matter if they only let guild roll, certain classes, or people with the letter 'Q' in their name. It is their choice what to do with it. You have no control over what another person does with their loot.

If you want to make it a rule in your raid that any raid item not looted must be put up for roll and open to everyone, go ahead. However, if you tell me ahead of time that *I* am not allowed to decide who or what to do with my loot, then I'll be dropping from that raid immediately.

Edit: As for resources, ask yourself this: Would you have contributed if no raid loot had dropped, avoiding any childish "But I want it!" arguments? That's the only thing that should matter.

Your loot is your loot.

But you are either there as a group, or not. If they don't want to treat everyone fairly, then why would you be in that group?

[xTethx]

Your loot is your loot.

But you are either there as a group, or not. If they don't want to treat everyone fairly, then why would you be in that group?

Because you get a completion. If you join a raid and expect to get someone elses loot that they pull then you are setting your bar way too high. If they put it up for roll, no problem, if theres a guild policy, no problem, if you whine/****/moan cause someone pulled a piece of loot you wanted and then you harass said person, problem.

Alts plz.

[LawstCawz]

No way.

Question though...why would you need to pug?

To start **** ofcoure. It's more intresting and I have most of what I want anyway. I enjoy running with other guilds. This thread is a thinking exercise for a slow morning.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if no loot is pulled?

I don't have all the answers, nor am I a moral compass. Answers are for fun of debate.

I gladly run with pestilence when the lfm is up. Here is what i expect when I join a Pestilence raid;

No exceptional loot will be passed to puggers (e.g. lotd, +3/+4 tomes, etc)
No nonsense
Little to no resources used

Now, i'm ok with that because I was probably just looking for a completion or larges and you wouldn't have needed me to join join anyway. My guild has similar loot rules, and I follow them because they're rules.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if loot is pulled but kept by those who pull it?

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if loot is pulled but only up for roll to a class different than the puggers class?

Depends on guild's loot rule. "all fighters" is different from "all guildy fighters."

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if they get banished at the end of part 3?

What class were they on and the makeup of the party? Was the party leader ok with them coming along without boots?

It would probably be a fine line. Most people would leave as soon as banished. An arcane, bard or offtank probably would not have affected the outcome anyway. If it was a divine or horoth/sulu tank, and they did not tell the leader, then probably.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if they **** up in some way that increases resource use, even if raid loot is kept in guild?

Most definitely. They should to make amends. If I had the star, I would just be ****ed off and boot them without asking for their pots.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if they pull loot themselves but are not given the chance to roll on loot that someone else pulled?

If it was a resource intensive guild raid, the guild might want to look on themselves to see what went wrong. I'd be embarrassed to ask pugs for pots if my guild made the mistakes.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if the raid wipes?

If they were not responsible, why should they foot the bill for a failed guild run? If it was lag, it could just be a fast wipe without the chance to chug pots. Part 2 tod, here's lookin' at you.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if the server or raid instance crashes/bugs?

Hard call. It would need to be more detailed to give an answer.

Is a pugger responsible for contributing resources if someone trades/sells/has an open auction for raid loot that they pull?

Lol, total bad form to auction it off amongst the dogs. Work something out in a tell and just pass it if you really had to. If a pugger tried to auction it off in a guild run, he'd prolly get a banhammer.

Where do you draw the line?

Posted the thread to find out. I would say it has something to do with who's to blame for resource usage, how many guildies it takes to constitue a guild raid, and that guilds loot rules.

IMO if you join a raid you should be willing to contribute as best you can in both resource use and character performance. You are paying for a possible completion and your 1/6 chance. You have no right to other peoples 1/6 chance.

Most guilds justify their loot rules because they think they don't don't need pugs to begin with, so why pass pugs loot?

EDIT
There is also a very important distinction to make:
puggers can keep whatever loot they pull
people in guilds that have an in-guild priority policy for loot often cannot: if they do not call the item they must put it for guild roll, even if they want to loot the item themselves.

example: I'm doing TOD with 8 guildies and none of us call ravager ring. I'm on my barb, I pull ravager ring, and I don't have it yet. I want it, and 2 other guildy barbs want it too. Since none of us called it, it goes up for guild roll. Whereas if I was a pugger I'd be able to loot it. If one of the puggers wants the ring and rolls with us, should he be freed from covering any resource use if his roll is ignored? (again, this is for a ring that I pulled, that I want for myself, but that I cannot loot straight away due to guild policy).

The loot rule still kept the loot within the guild.

[Freeman]

Your loot is your loot.

But you are either there as a group, or not. If they don't want to treat everyone fairly, then why would you be in that group?

So I should put an item up for roll instead of giving it to my wife? I can't do that if you want to treat everyone fairly. My other guildies know she has first dibs on any of my loot, so I guess I don't even treat them fairly on an all-guild run. You aren't asking for fair treatment, you are asking for equal treatment. And no, I'm not going to treat complete strangers equally with guildies or with my wife. I will treat them fairly, but that isn't the same thing.

When someone joins my raid, they should expect to get completion and a chance to have loot drop in their name. Anything beyond that is a bonus, and not something they should expect. I don't put any limitation on what they can do with their loot, and I don't see why they should have the ability to limit what I can do with mine.

[Wizard_Zero]

You have a fair chance of rare loot: you have a 1/6 chance to pull it yourself, and you get 1 raid closer to a 20th reward list. That is all you should expect, and all you are entitled to.

If you expect to demand dibbs on other peoples loot, perhaps it is you who should post what guild you are in, and your character names.

Edit:
http://my.ddo.com/wizard_zero/characters/
I don't think you need to worry about grouping with someone from Thelanis. ><
And even if he was on Sarlona, solarnight and Kophie would probably be declined after being myddo'd anyway.

Edit edit:
It should also be noted that for these organised guilds, you are much more likely to get loot compared to a group of random puggers. Random puggers are generally not as well equipped and don't have as many completions (i.e. they need more loot than someone from an organised guild), and in many cases will pocket raid loot that they will not use (i.e. taking madstone boots on their wizard because it says potency on it, while being too nub to know that the random proc prevents them from casting). Whereas groups comprised of experienced guilds are much much more likely to not need the majority of loot, and will only pull the loot that they need.

If your characters/guild is so good, put your character names and guild on here. Let people decide if they want to join in your raids or not with your current philosophy, don't be scared and hide (Why are you afraid to show your characters anyway?). I've ran many times in guild raids on Sarlona, and those guilds have always been fair on the rolls, I don't mind bringing my cleric to help. I'm all in support of guildies helping guildies, but if a non-guild person is helping they should have equal opportunity. If you want guildies to have priority on gear, then do an all guild raid like most do.

My characters got the gear, I spent my time grinding (Which I hate, but that is part of MMO). And I received MOST of my raid gear from rolls. This isn't selfish WoW. DDO has a great community, at least on Sarlona, people are always willing to help even if I'm not in their guild. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought.

I like the current equal raid-roll system in DDO, and I hate to see it tarnished.

[LawstCawz]

Have nub guilds hit end-game, and are they putting underpowered raids together and blowing through resources, and expecting everyone to pay while keeping all loot in-guild?

My position is from the standpoint that experienced guilds with good composition and contribution are leading these raids. However, if I joined a group of total gimps who are ill-equipped & ill-prepared and they're supplementing their lack of gear/skill via ddostore mana pots or plat farmer mana pots, I wouldn't be too keen on covering them.

This is where I'm coming from.

[Nezichiend]

If you l00t is your l00t....


Your pots are your own pots

[nanobot1994]

Just a quick question about loot:

Why is it a problem if xxx loots yyy and decides to pass it on to his guildmates? Its xxx's loot not yours, you had your chance to have it drop for you in the chest, you failed s/he succeed. I see the problem if you get a rare piece of raid-loot and you get forced to put it up for roll, but im my opinion its there loot, not yours.

Id much rather run with a nice guild who lets me keep my loot, and lets the guild members roll for the guilds loot, since 1) its most likely a much more relaxed (they know what theyre doing), easier, faster and just generally a funner run than a random pug. In a pug, you might get to roll for all loot, but its just not worth the stress of wondering how soon youll wipe or how much resources youll have to go through every mob.

So my question in a nut shell is, why do you think your entitled to someone else's loot, they probably spent just as much resources as you, or maybe they were just flat-out luckier.

[Trillea]

If your characters/guild is so good, put your character names and guild on here. Let people decide if they want to join in your raids or not with your current philosophy, don't be scared and hide (Why are you afraid to show your characters anyway?). I've ran many times in guild raids on Sarlona, and those guilds have always been fair on the rolls, I don't mind bringing my cleric to help. I'm all in support of guildies helping guildies, but if a non-guild person is helping they should have equal opportunity. If you want guildies to have priority on gear, then do an all guild raid like most do.

My characters got the gear, I spent my time grinding (Which I hate, but that is part of MMO). And I received MOST of my raid gear from rolls. This isn't selfish WoW. DDO has a great community, at least on Sarlona, people are always willing to help even if I'm not in their guild. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought.

I like the current equal raid-roll system in DDO, and I hate to see it tarnished.

Uhh you may have missed it (I don't know how though) but Vhlad HAS all his characters AND guild in his sig. Maybe you should read whole posts before posting your own.

[biggin]

If your characters/guild is so good, put your character names and guild on here. Let people decide if they want to join in your raids or not with your current philosophy, don't be scared and hide (Why are you afraid to show your characters anyway?).

Not directed at me, but did you happen to look at the bottom where his sig is? He doesn't hide by any means....

One of the biggest problems I think people have is that they don't know who they are running with. A little experience with the player base and you'll figure it out. One of the things I had to get over was being a bit too shy. For instance, Abbott sometimes goes into overtime if a puzzle room needs to be redone. However, not everyone is staring at my blue bar like I am. I ask the guys if they want me to drink pots if need be if I see us headed in that direction. I used to just chug away without saying a word, and if noone even knows your drinking pots but you ask for 6 at the end of the raid, more than a few eyebrows will be raised. I don't know of too many guilds running end game that if they know what's going on and can see it as justified wouldn't replace consumables.
But just because you drink pots or have to contribute to someone who did doesn't mean you have any more/less right to what falls for other people. You got the completion, that's what the pots were for. They aren't loot gems.

[Waukeen]

Have nub guilds hit end-game, and are they putting underpowered raids together and blowing through resources, and expecting everyone to pay while keeping all loot in-guild?

My position is from the standpoint that experienced guilds with good composition and contribution are leading these raids. However, if I joined a group of total gimps who are ill-equipped & ill-prepared and they're supplementing their lack of gear/skill via ddostore mana pots or plat farmer mana pots, I wouldn't be too keen on covering them.

For experienced guilds, puggers are getting a fast run with a good shot at completion, their 1/6 chance, and unneeded loot pulled by the well-equipped guild members. This to me is worth the cost of covering an equal share of the minor resources used to complete an epic velah, epic DQ, hard/elite TOD, etc.

For nub guilds, puggers are getting a slow run with a poor shot at completion (or a good shot at an expensive completion), their 1/6 chance, and are a lot less likely to see any loot go unneeded, as it is pulled by poorly equipped nubs.

This is a very good assessment of the situation that a true Pugger like me deals with every time I log in and raid.

Personally, I would much much rather fill out a run with a guild that has a loot policy than join one of the ridiculous ****show runs that I try to avoid.

I still get mine, I know what to expect, and I know the other players will able to do their part.

I pitch in whenever asked and I offer to if I see pots being used. You reap what you sow, and gimme gimme never gets.

[Xithos]

If your characters/guild is so good, put your character names and guild on here. Let people decide if they want to join in your raids or not with your current philosophy, don't be scared and hide (Why are you afraid to show your characters anyway?). I've ran many times in guild raids on Sarlona, and those guilds have always been fair on the rolls, I don't mind bringing my cleric to help. I'm all in support of guildies helping guildies, but if a non-guild person is helping they should have equal opportunity. If you want guildies to have priority on gear, then do an all guild raid like most do.

My characters got the gear, I spent my time grinding (Which I hate, but that is part of MMO). And I received MOST of my raid gear from rolls. This isn't selfish WoW. DDO has a great community, at least on Sarlona, people are always willing to help even if I'm not in their guild. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought.

I like the current equal raid-roll system in DDO, and I hate to see it tarnished.

Epic fail post. You must not play on Thelanis.

[Seelowe]

this thread is systematically being derailed into the good ole' "this and that guild's loot system sucks"

the question was easy.

the answer is not.

short input:
you do not have a thing like 20 epic raid completions dropping you a list of seals and shards like any non epic raid scenario. this in itself changes the balance of things for epic raiding. the only reason to run epic is seals, shards and scrolls as for anything else you could simply run the regular raid faster, with less ppl and less resources used.

if you take puggers in, either share everything or share nothing. middle ground just complicates things unneeded.

it is not like any of the epic raids can not be shortmanned to not need any puggers to be involved to begin with.

I am assuming this is a scenario of 10-11 ppl from one guild and 1-2 from another. if it is little groups of 2, 3 or 4 ppl again things change.

[GlorkTheInvader]

A lot of people seem to be failing to address the question directly. The question posed by the OP is not the ten thousandth re-hash of "what should guilds do about opening raid loot?" It states (to paraphrase), "If a pugger joins a Guild raid, and loot opened by that Guild stays within that guild, should the pugger be expected to compensate for any resources spent during the raid?"

The answer (in my humble opinion) is yes. Regardless of loot pulled, all twelve players are expected to do their part to help the raid succeed. This is not just limited to executing your role properly, but it also includes covering spent resources. That is part of the unwritten agreement you make when you join ANY raid, guild-based or not.


But ultimately, it is the raid leader's / guild's choice whether you get your completion and your chance to pop loot. To the OP, I would say: If you have a problem with this, don't join any guild raids. Stick to 100% pugs, and see how happy you are with your success rates and resources spent in a few weeks.