Fixing sword and board.

[Megaton_Samurai]

Did you know that S&B sucks horribly? Do you friends make fun of you because you're level 9 and still holding your combat training wheel? Well fear not for there is a solution!

Off-hand shield bashing.




Oh, you probably want specifics. Well how about S&B gets a 10% chance to land an off-hand shield bash? Put in a 3 feat shield line that add 10% chance per tier ending at 40% chance to off-hand a shield bash. Exactly half of what TWF gets.

Maybe I would care about those shields made for bashing then.

[Internetisrsbsn]

Did you know that S&B sucks horribly? Do you friends make fun of you because you're level 9 and still holding your combat training wheel? Well fear not for there is a solution!

Off-hand shield bashing.




Oh, you probably want specifics. Well how about S&B gets a 10% chance to land an off-hand shield bash? Put in a 3 feat shield line that add 10% chance per tier ending at 40% chance to off-hand a shield bash. Exactly half of what TWF gets.

Maybe I would care about those shields made for bashing then.

S&B is good when you need the extra AC and DR to not take damage. Of course always going S&B is just stupid. You need a 2h or dual-wield when you just need to dps.

Also, 3 feats is a bit much just for shield bashing. You could take way better feats in their place.

[DToNE]

There is a way to make shields better. In history, one of their functions was to bash people with causing massive damage. The secondary function was what's important, the ability to ram someone with it and knock them off balance or even knock them over.

So, if you want to get more Sword and Board users, give the shield the ability to knock someone over.

[Djimonte]

It would be nice to see the shield incorporated into swing mix just like the offhand sword is as you require players to pick the feat for towershield yet it does absolutely nothing unless you hit the shield block button and swing with it (I do this) I like being sword and board and always have liked using shields but what bothers me is there isn't any improvement in its addition to fighting monsters no stun affects knockdown effects weapon breaking affects bonus saves agianst arrows and thrown weapons taking the shield feat for tower should be more useful than what you devs have it setup as.

[coolpenguin410]

There is already a 3 feat shield line:

Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Bash

Just make them each give a bonus to proc a shield bash and you're good.

[Kemoc]

There is a way to make shields better. In history, one of their functions was to bash people with causing massive damage. The secondary function was what's important, the ability to ram someone with it and knock them off balance or even knock them over.

So, if you want to get more Sword and Board users, give the shield the ability to knock someone over.

Great idea. A knock back or chance for knock down would be great. Would add some diversity to the game. Perhaps a chance to stun would also work.

[azrael4h]

Personally, I think there needs to be an attack with the shield added as part of the base attack chain. Shield Mastery can give an increased chance for additional attacks with the shield.

In addition, the blocking needs to be more integral, as no one in RL would turtle up like S&B users do in DDO, they would be moving the shield around to counter attacks while working their own weapon in to strike. A chance for the blocking AC bonus to be added in even when not actively blocking should help a bit.

Perhaps, for the knockdown effect mentioned, while shield blocking, when you tap forward, if you hit an enemy it runs a chance for a knockdown, like Trip does. Have a balance or STR check to avoid it of course. You can tie the DCs into SM as well. Larger enemies would be harder to knockdown, etc...

[coolpenguin410]

Personally, I think there needs to be an attack with the shield added as part of the base attack chain. Shield Mastery can give an increased chance for additional attacks with the shield.

In addition, the blocking needs to be more integral, as no one in RL would turtle up like S&B users do in DDO, they would be moving the shield around to counter attacks while working their own weapon in to strike. A chance for the blocking AC bonus to be added in even when not actively blocking should help a bit.

Perhaps, for the knockdown effect mentioned, while shield blocking, when you tap forward, if you hit an enemy it runs a chance for a knockdown, like Trip does. Have a balance or STR check to avoid it of course. You can tie the DCs into SM as well. Larger enemies would be harder to knockdown, etc...

Knockdown? You mean trip? You can do that without a shield. I don't like adding anything more to S&B besides shield bashing. Trip, Stun, etc., it all requires feats or manuevers that you can do without shield blocking, why make it part of shield blocking? Just increase S&B damage by adding shield bashes and you're good. S&B doesn't need to be uber or top end DPS or even great tatics. You get more defense for less offense. That's your trade off. Just make it better than the DPS blackhole it is already.

[Igrovin]

Here is a list of PnP shield related feats.

Improved Shield Snare
[General, Fighter]
(DR309 p110)
Shield Proficiency
Combat Reflexes
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Snare
If your opponent is disarmed due to the use of your Shield Snare feat, you can make an Attack of
Opportunity against your opponent immediately. You gain a +2 bonus on your attacks against this
opponent as long as he/she remains disarmed.

Shield Charge
[General, Fighter]
(CWar p105)
Base Attack Bonus +3
Improved Shield Bash
If you successful hit your opponent with your Shield at the end of a Charge, you may make a Trip attack
immediately without provoking an Attack of Opportunity. If it fails, your opponent does not get an
attempt to trip you.

Shield Slam
[General, Fighter]
(CWar p105)
Base Attack Bonus +6
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Charge
You may make a ‘Shield Slam’ as a Full Attack or at the end of a Charge. If it hits, your opponent takes
normal damage and is Dazed for 1 round (FortNeg, DC is Strength-based).


Shield Sling
[General, Fighter]
(PH2 p 82)
Shield Proficiency
Base Attack Bonus +9
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Specialization
You can use your Light Shield or Heavy Shield as a Thrown Weapon. It does its normal bashing damage
plus your Strength modifier.
The Shield can also be used to make a Ranged Trip, though the Size modifier on the attempt can be no more
than +0 (though it can be lower for a Small sized creature).


Shield Snare
[General, Fighter]
(DR309 p110)
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
To use this Feat, you must ready a Shield Snare action in response to an opponent’s melee attack. When
your opponent attacks, you immediately make a Disarm attempt with your shield that does not generate an
Attack of Opportunity. If you fail, your opponent cannot attempt to disarm you in response.
When making the disarm check, treat a Buckler as a Light weapon, a Light Shield as a One-Handed
weapon, and a Heavy or Tower Shield as a Two-Handed weapon.
If you attempt a Shield Snare action, you lose your Shield Bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

[TheKaige]

Knockdown? You mean trip? You can do that without a shield. I don't like adding anything more to S&B besides shield bashing. Trip, Stun, etc., it all requires feats or manuevers that you can do without shield blocking, why make it part of shield blocking? Just increase S&B damage by adding shield bashes and you're good. S&B doesn't need to be uber or top end DPS or even great tatics. You get more defense for less offense. That's your trade off. Just make it better than the DPS blackhole it is already.

That (Points up). Though personally I would prefer to see instead of shield bashing be a percent chance, make it like dual-wielding is now, but the attack penalty only goes on the shield with an added -4 penalty since the penalty is concentrated i.e.

Dual Wielding w/o feat = -6 prime hand, -10 off hand Shield bash with heavy shield = -20 to your shield bash attack
Dual Wielding w/o feat, light off hand = -4 prime hand, -8 off hand. Shield bash + Lt. shield = -16 to your bash attack

I'd say Tower Shields can't INITIALLY be bashed with but then make Improved Shield Bash the Two-Weapon fighting equivalent of shield bashing + the extra penalty goes from -4 to -2, and you can bash with a tower shield like a heavy shield if you weren't proficient

Dual Wielding with feat = -4 prime,-4 off; Shield Bash +Hvy Shield+Imp. Shield Bash = -10 to your bash attack
Dual Wielding with feat, off hand is light = -2 prime, -2 off; Shield Bash+Lt. Shield+Imp.Shield Bash = -6 to your bash
Shield Bash + Tower Shield + Imp. Shield Bash = -20 to your attack

Then you can make Shield Masterys 1 and 2 an improvement on shield bashing, or an improvement on AC or something. As of right now, I'd say they're borderline useless (plus blocking imo just needs removed from game, but that's not important)

Also, random thought, there should be a feat where you can get a +3 to your reflex save as long as you have a shield, since blocking with a shield in PnP gives you a bonus to reflex saves.

[Igrovin]

That (Points up). Though personally I would prefer to see instead of shield bashing be a percent chance, make it like dual-wielding is now, but the attack penalty only goes on the shield with an added -4 penalty since the penalty is concentrated i.e.

Dual Wielding w/o feat = -6 prime hand, -10 off hand Shield bash with heavy shield = -20 to your shield bash attack
Dual Wielding w/o feat, light off hand = -4 prime hand, -8 off hand. Shield bash + Lt. shield = -16 to your bash attack

I'd say Tower Shields can't INITIALLY be bashed with but then make Improved Shield Bash the Two-Weapon fighting equivalent of shield bashing + the extra penalty goes from -4 to -2, and you can bash with a tower shield like a heavy shield if you weren't proficient

Dual Wielding with feat = -4 prime,-4 off; Shield Bash +Hvy Shield+Imp. Shield Bash = -10 to your bash attack
Dual Wielding with feat, off hand is light = -2 prime, -2 off; Shield Bash+Lt. Shield+Imp.Shield Bash = -6 to your bash
Shield Bash + Tower Shield + Imp. Shield Bash = -20 to your attack

Then you can make Shield Masterys 1 and 2 an improvement on shield bashing, or an improvement on AC or something. As of right now, I'd say they're borderline useless (plus blocking imo just needs removed from game, but that's not important)

Also, random thought, there should be a feat where you can get a +3 to your reflex save as long as you have a shield, since blocking with a shield in PnP gives you a bonus to reflex saves.

In other words, you want to completely pervert 2 weapon fighting, and make it a useless unnecessary addition.

With so many penalties to your attack, whats the point of even having it? So that 5% of the 5% of the time you might actually hit the enemy with a critical?

Knockdown is not trip and trip is not knockdown. Knockdown is the effect of trip, as it is also the effect of a number of magical spells and items. Such as grease. You can't tell me that grease is making a trip attack, because its not. Of course though, because of Turbines perversions of pnp, much of the effect of what trip attacks were is lost. Not every weapon in Pnp was able to do trip attacks, but a handful were.

The ability to have a "super" shield bash, which of course does have to be modified to fit into the new perversions of the lack of charging and the fact trip can be used with any weapon would fall under on of the previous feats I had listed from PnP.

Lastly, people don't go shield and board because they want to do the most amount of damage possible. And if you do.. well I feel sorry for you. But they go S and B because they want good defense.

The problem is that most monsters have the ability to easily break said defense with spells and other things. In Pnp this isn't usually much of a problem as once you have the caster in reach he is screwed usually. Besides, things like magic resistance works on damage spells too. Not here though.

So the perverse change would have to be something that increases the S&B's users defensive ability, especially against spells. My suggestion.. Make an "Uber" Dr on all magical shields that lowers the enemies ability to deal damage. Tower shields give a 3/ dr on spells per +. So a +3 tower shield would resist 9 points of magic damage from each spell. That may be too much or too little of course.

But then when blocking, each + on the shield gives a % of a chance (Size of shield matters as well, bigger sheilds have bigger bonuses) that the spell will reflect or otherwise be nulled, but only if it is a single target spell, like ray of frost. This would have no effect vs a fireball.

[azrael4h]

Rushing someone with a shield and knocking them on their butts is a well used tactic used by real life warriors across real life battlefields throughout the centuries that shields were used in combat. So is actively using the shield while fighting to parry blows, and so is punching out with a shield, or bashing an enemy with a shield actively while using the main weapon.

I've used the same tactic in D&D before as well. It is an integral part of using a shield.

In DDO terms, all it needs is a physics check to see if you hit an enemy when you jump forward while blocking, then a roll to see if they're knocked down. STR mod added to the knockdown DC, while the mob's STR mod added to the saving throw. Have them down for say, 3 seconds. Adjust length for balance.

If the AI used this tactic as well, this would help increase the challenge slightly. Slightly.

Not adding it leaves S&B not much better than it already is. Having a mere 10% shield bash proc would be so negligible that there would be no point to it, and S&B fighters would still be scoffed at.

Which is why I say 1 extra attack from an automatic shield bash, and being able to rush an enemy and knock it down while shield blocking, should help. S&B fighters would have a control method that isn't on a minute long cool down, and their dps output would increase, which is a core problem with the style. Feats could add more attacks, or a chance for more attacks, but the base addition of a guaranteed attack, no random penalties, is needed. Though, the problem stems from the game design of more hp = more challenge. But that's another thread.

[AZgreentea]

Adding Knockdown to shield usage is an interesting idea, but I dont know if it will balance. Either way, the ability to use knockdown should certainly be dependent on the size/weight of the shield. I would have a much harder time knocking someone on their rear with a buckler than I would with a tower shield.