Make Monk fighting more fluent - monk finishers

[SkyCry]

Monk fighting styles with Ki strikes are supposed to feel fluent - and they mostly do - however, finishers break this effect the way they are implemented.

a) make finishers auto-execute on last strike (no extra hand-sign animation)
b) make finishers be a fluent chain of strikes, with limited time allowed between each Ki strike (for example, 6 to 12 seconds)
c) make only successful hits count towards the combo


The combination of these 3 simple changes will mean, for example:
1) You can't enter an adventure and have light monk do water-light-water finisher. This is by design, as that kind of thing isn't in line with finishers being part of fluent Monk fighting style.
2) You can't "carry" a finisher around till you need it. Once again, the current implementation isn't consistent with fluent fighting style.
3) You have to actually hit stuff, so you can't, e.g. help a rogue disable trap. The new void-light-void is SO going to be misused otherwise... and once again, not consistent with fluent fighting style.
4) No more "losing" finisher on not enough Ki or other reasons ("losing" finisher = not fluent).
5) (a) makes finishers easier, but (b) and (c) make them harder = balance
6) You can't easily (and hence won't often) reposition for the perfect target of a finisher - finishers are a fluent part of your fighting, not something you prepare and let loose at the right time
7) You are rewarded for being able to watch closely whether you hit or not and to react/adapt fast, making combat draw you in more, require more of your attention
8) You never miss an opportunity to execute combo, you no longer have to watch the button on your hotbar toggle to some other icon only to go back because you actually lagged and your last strike never registered = more fluency
9) You actually have one less button on your hotbar now (important for monks!)

However some things need to be rebalanced to accommodate for this. For example water-light-water finisher only makes sense if used on casters. But casters stay behind, while the Monk is in the front lines. This means that range of the finisher needs to be increased. (Or it could actually work like it says it works: clear the area, hence be a stationary effect, perhaps with transparent cloud-like visual effect, that casters need to enter to make use of - I know I would on my caster.)

Also the finishers that require 3x same strike won't work with the current high cooldown on these strikes. It would feel more fluent to have lower cooldown. Ki cost already balances this, but it's also possible to, for example, increase Ki cost right after use and let it gradually decrease back to normal level over 3-6 seconds. This would allow a Monk to burn through Ki fast in order to execute a finisher very very quickly when necessary, making combat more fluent once again.

[Memnir]

I universally dislike these ideas - and frankly like the finishers, with all their little quirks and foibles, the way they are. I don't see any reason to reduce their functionality, which is all this batch of suggestions would accomplish.

Leave the nerfs to the Devs.


/not signed

[SkyCry]

I have several monks and my suggestions aren't suggested as a nerf, it's the opposite. Of course, if I suggested just the first one, there would be a bunch of people claiming how it would make Monks overpowered. Can't make everyone happy, but at least I try.

This will allow you to easily maintain ALL light buffs at once, if you can hit targets all the time and generate enough Ki. The main point is also that you don't need to stop the DPS to do a light buff - the buff happens by itself as a consequence, not by you having to stop fighting and activating a special move.

If you see this as a nerf to monks, I'm quite disappointed. I consider this an improvement to the playability of monks, making them more natural to play, increasing immersion.

[Memnir]

I also have several monks - and yes, I see these as nothing but nerfs. It is taking away versatility and functionality from the Monk class while adding... well, nothing imho.

[Shade2891]

I have to agree with mem on this. What you are suggesting would in fact nerf monks. Have you ever been fighting and tried to throw a finisher only to find out that someone or yourself has killed the target? and thats spamming the buttons.

I find myself using buffs more than damaging finishers when in a group anyway just due to the fact that I only get maybe 2 to 3 hits per baddie cause theres 4 other melees in on it as well. And I usually meditate straight into the quest build ki and once everyone is in throw the water, light, water finisher so that the caster(s) can buff without losing so much SP don't know any casters that have a problem with that do you?

On top of all that your saying 3 consecutive hits so if you have even one miss there goes your finisher that could be a problem for str based monks in early to mid levels where I am usually killing things in 2 hits or 3 if I get a bad roll for damage. but certainly don't need the extra damage from a finisher after that.

[SkyCry]

Yes, the idea is to make monk better at what he was designed to be... but also to balance it by taking away the kind of functionality a monk should never have had.

The idea is a bit like switching monk from wizard-style to sorcerer-style - to take away some choice, but make him better at everything he does: make him do finishers faster, cheaper, more often. The result would be that a light monk won't do a fire buff before combat, but instead would be able to do it easily 3 strikes into the combat. And then continue to do air and water buffs, which monks before would have to spend more time doing, eventually stopping to care, because it's too much trouble and because it's an extra thing you have to worry about. (Do I press the magic button yet? Do I wait for a better time? Maybe if I use it now, I'll miss the perfect opportunity in a second? I'd rather keep it charged just in case... oh ****, I opened a door, it's gone!!)

Of course this can be accompanied by other balancing actions, such as reducing Ki cost of strikes (since they don't always hit). The point of suggestion isn't whether it'll cost more, but whether it's better to get more fluency and easier finishers at the cost of not being a universal just-a-bit-more buffer.

Do you want to be some kind of portable SP battery or an efficient punching machine with buffing side-effects?


Also consider what this will do to dark monks - light isn't the only way to go.

[Arsont]

Currently, my light oath monk is stable at 40 ki. If your suggestions were implemented, I would lose A LOT of usefulness. That stable ki is just enough to get off a water light water at the start of the quest. That's a big no-no with some of the people I group with. Also, having finishers activate in their own? Noooooo. My dps is a tad low. Usually, by the time I get a finisher ready, the rest of the melees have already moves to the next mob. So I'd basically be losing A)my finisher and B)the ki from the finisher. Doesn't sound appealing.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but it really just sounds like you have a problem with your twitch skills. Anyhow, my two cp.

[SkyCry]

I have to agree with mem on this. What you are suggesting would in fact nerf monks. Have you ever been fighting and tried to throw a finisher only to find out that someone or yourself has killed the target? and thats spamming the buttons.

Exactly! This would not happen. Either the battle is over and nothing else is left to kill, hence it doesn't matter. Or the battle is continuing and your next Ki strike on next target will trigger the finisher, hence finisher is never unused.

I find myself using buffs more than damaging finishers when in a group anyway just due to the fact that I only get maybe 2 to 3 hits per baddie cause theres 4 other melees in on it as well. And I usually meditate straight into the quest build ki and once everyone is in throw the water, light, water finisher so that the caster(s) can buff without losing so much SP don't know any casters that have a problem with that do you?

It's not surprised you went a light monk then. But does it feel right for you to be someone who's just there to save some SP on buffs? Or would you rather be someone who goes into the battle, does some nifty Ki strikes and suddenly casters cast cheaper? It would also be your *choice* whether to give priority to SP buff or Heroism buff throughout the WHOLE quest, not just do one important buff at the start. Because finishers will be easier and more natural to do.

On top of all that your saying 3 consecutive hits so if you have even one miss there goes your finisher that could be a problem for str based monks in early to mid levels where I am usually killing things in 2 hits or 3 if I get a bad roll for damage. but certainly don't need the extra damage from a finisher after that.

No, I'm not saying 3 consecutive hits. If you hit fire, hit light, miss fire, you now have to do fire again to make finisher. If you hit fire, hit stunning blow, miss void, miss light, you now have to do (and hit) light again and then hit fire again to make finisher. It doesn't matter how many non-element strikes you put in between or how many element or non-element strikes missed, what matters is only the time passed after last Ki strike.

[SkyCry]

Currently, my light oath monk is stable at 40 ki. If your suggestions were implemented, I would lose A LOT of usefulness. That stable ki is just enough to get off a water light water at the start of the quest. That's a big no-no with some of the people I group with. Also, having finishers activate in their own? Noooooo. My dps is a tad low. Usually, by the time I get a finisher ready, the rest of the melees have already moves to the next mob. So I'd basically be losing A)my finisher and B)the ki from the finisher. Doesn't sound appealing.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but it really just sounds like you have a problem with your twitch skills. Anyhow, my two cp.

Finisher activating by itself implies it'll activate for FREE - no Ki cost. So to do water finisher you would only need 20 Ki if you use first tier attacks and if you hit all attacks. But you'll have to have someone to punch! With 40 Ki reserve you could easily do 2-3 finishers right from the start of the battle, then use them to accumulate Ki for next battle faster, while also giving casters cheaper casting during that battle and cheaper healing right after.

You aren't losing a finisher. There would be no finisher to lose. There would be simply a combo that you could do in battle. Once this is changed, you would see finishers in a different light, you will not consider a finisher lost, you'll have one less thing to worry about! That's the point.

That's a big no-no with some of the people I group with.

Yes! But this change will affect all monks, so no one would be blamed for not doing some pre-buff buff, if they can't. You don't blame a barbarian for not healing you, do you? He can't!

[TheDjinnFor]

This is the one reason why I hate playing monks: It feels as though they're lower DPS and only good for tossing one buff at the beginning of the quest. That's all I see other monks doing, so logic says...

Trying to use a finisher at the right moment while fighting is like trying to look two directions at once, and it requires me to have all these special hotkeys and take my hands of the wasd keys because I can't get it to work worth anything just clicking on the finisher. I don't have enough easy-to-hit keys to make it all worthwhile.

I think that by letting finishers come off automatically when hitting things it would actually make sense for a monk as melee DPS that buffs his allies while fighting rather than a DPSer that tosses one minute SP buffs at the beginning of a quest.

If Turbine's goal is to have monks buffing while fighting, which I'm pretty sure was the whole goal, this change makes sense. If they think that the only thing monks are good for is tossing an SP buff at the beginning so that buffs are cheap, then stay with the original mechanics.

[SkyCry]

That's my point exactly.

[TylerTheTiler]

I have to disagree too, this sounds more like a barbarian rage than a monk calmly contemplating victory.
Think of the cut in functionality, especially in elemental heavy dungeons. So I have hit ice mephits with ice to let casters reduce their sp in the fight, or undead? That's begging for a beating. It's also calling casters into the middle of the brawl to play in the monk mist.

And Fighting is very much about tactics, the fluidity is based on the fighters skill, fighters don't just run at each other swinging, they clash and bounce back. They look for openings to do the right moves. They don't just power dump punches on each other, if you're throwing a combo and the opponent ducks a punch. They can still come back and get clocked by the last move or the move right after the one they ducked. I feel that's how it's represented by the current system. I do think the cool downs are a little much, however, but I don't think adding a timer to when you have to launch the next attack would help any. What if they hold their guard up or block for 30 seconds? You have to wait it out.

I also think they shouldn't be called finishers, since they rarely finish the fight if ever. OH MAN! Did you see him Walk of the sun that guy into dust?! As for carrying, the charge. I completely agree with being able to, similair to being 'in the zone' as some people might be familiar with. You don't just hit it and then it's gone, if you can reliably put yourself in that state of mind, you'd absolutely be able to utilize it when you needed.

I think maybe continous hits should allow a barbarian to rage, that'd be amazing. But not a monk to concentrate on selectively disintigrating various bones in your body without causing pain to you.

[mboger]

This is such a horrible idea that I suspect you of being a dev in disguise.

[TylerTheTiler]

This is the one reason why I hate playing monks: It feels as though they're lower DPS and only good for tossing one buff at the beginning of the quest. That's all I see other monks doing, so logic says...

A lot of monk buffs only last for a minute, and the heals are instant. I don't think they're easy to notice because they don't last long, and how can you tell a monk light heal from a cleric light heal? That sounds like a zen moment, if you're doing it right, noone will even notice you've done anything at all.

[Megaton_Samurai]

Monk fighting styles with Ki strikes are supposed to feel fluent - and they mostly do - however, finishers break this effect the way they are implemented.

a) make finishers auto-execute on last strike (no extra hand-sign animation)

I like this, I was about to write up a post about it myself.

b) make finishers be a fluent chain of strikes, with limited time allowed between each Ki strike (for example, 6 to 12 seconds)

Another point I was to make myself. I was thinking more along the lines of using a Ki attack would give you a 6 second buff. For example, a fire attack would give you a short buff called "Fiery Ki". Anytime you had a combination of floating Ki that produced a finisher, it would go off. This means you could do fire, water, fire, fire and get the burning hands finisher and still have a (soon to be expiring) water Ki still floating.

c) make only successful hits count towards the combo

Now this I do not agree with at all. Ki powers the finishers, not punching. You get Ki from punching sure, but you also do from meditating, which is very much not combat related. I have no problem at all with a monk meditating to center his Ki until it erupts over his allies in a wave of calm (or whatever).


I may make another thread about this since that last point makes a HUGE difference, and I have some other ideas for monks that I think would be helpful.

[SkyCry]

Now this I do not agree with at all. Ki powers the finishers, not punching. You get Ki from punching sure, but you also do from meditating, which is very much not combat related. I have no problem at all with a monk meditating to center his Ki until it erupts over his allies in a wave of calm (or whatever).

I understand this is the most controversial point. However this is necessary to make it really a combo attack, not silly monk punching air. Monks should NOT buffers on demand, there are other classes for that. Monks are fighting-oriented buffers, they get buffs for free, but at a cost. That's also the reason the buffs are short - to make you keep fighting and rebuffing.

Another point I was to make myself. I was thinking more along the lines of using a Ki attack would give you a 6 second buff. For example, a fire attack would give you a short buff called "Fiery Ki". Anytime you had a combination of floating Ki that produced a finisher, it would go off. This means you could do fire, water, fire, fire and get the burning hands finisher and still have a (soon to be expiring) water Ki still floating.

I like the idea not because it would not break finishers, but more because it would make it more obvious what stage of a combo you're on. Currently there's no way to tell until the finisher is ready.

[Doganpc]

I kind of get what the OP is getting at maybe not how he is trying to implement it.

Dogan
A little work and it could work.

[SkyCry]

So I have hit ice mephits with ice to let casters reduce their sp in the fight, or undead?

That is not specific to my suggestion. The fact that ice attacks are required to make ice buff is not something I came up with. It's something that's currently in the game. You give me too much credit here.

They can still come back and get clocked by the last move or the move right after the one they ducked.

Yes, but if the target didn't duck one of your moves, you'd do your combo one move sooner. Makes sense? It makes more sense to me than "I missed you 3 times, so now I get to breathe fire at you".

I do think the cool downs are a little much, however, but I don't think adding a timer to when you have to launch the next attack would help any. What if they hold their guard up or block for 30 seconds? You have to wait it out.

But it won't make it worse either, if you're actively involved in combat. The extra timer only matters when you're trying to make a combo out of combat. Heck, 12 seconds is A LOT of time to think it through thoroughly and that means that you can take 36 seconds to do whole combo - that's a LOT. Blocking is something that needs to be considered, I agree... However monsters don't block, so it's not a priority. I think it would be OK for blocked strikes to count, I see nothing wrong with that.

I also think they shouldn't be called finishers, since they rarely finish the fight if ever. OH MAN! Did you see him Walk of the sun that guy into dust?! As for carrying, the charge. I completely agree with being able to, similair to being 'in the zone' as some people might be familiar with. You don't just hit it and then it's gone, if you can reliably put yourself in that state of mind, you'd absolutely be able to utilize it when you needed.

I think maybe continous hits should allow a barbarian to rage, that'd be amazing. But not a monk to concentrate on selectively disintigrating various bones in your body without causing pain to you.

What you call it is of little relevance. Imagine finisher meaning "the finishing move of a combo". The point is you manipulate Ki in a certain way, you arrange it in certain order (monk = law = order) and that allows you to produce a certain synergy effect, for no *extra* cost. If you take your sweet time, the effect dissipates and you have to start over.

[Megaton_Samurai]

I understand this is the most controversial point. However this is necessary to make it really a combo attack, not silly monk punching air. Monks should NOT buffers on demand, there are other classes for that. Monks are fighting-oriented buffers, they get buffs for free, but at a cost. That's also the reason the buffs are short - to make you keep fighting and rebuffing.

That's the whole point between the light and dark styles. If you want a fighting-oriented monk, then choose the dark path. You won't have to deal with buffing at all.

I like the idea that after an intense fight the monk can, in a flurry of stances, wash his Ki through the world around him and make magic more malleable.

[SkyCry]

But you will still do it... you'll just be doing it whole fight, instead of only at the end, when you're finally not DPSing, hence have time to make a water combo. Isn't it better to have it continuously on during the whole fight and let it linger for a minute after?