Make Monk fighting more fluent - monk finishers

[SkyCry]

Monk fighting styles with Ki strikes are supposed to feel fluent - and they mostly do - however, finishers break this effect the way they are implemented.

a) make finishers auto-execute on last strike (no extra hand-sign animation)
b) make finishers be a fluent chain of strikes, with limited time allowed between each Ki strike (for example, 6 to 12 seconds)
c) make only successful hits count towards the combo


The combination of these 3 simple changes will mean, for example:
1) You can't enter an adventure and have light monk do water-light-water finisher. This is by design, as that kind of thing isn't in line with finishers being part of fluent Monk fighting style.
2) You can't "carry" a finisher around till you need it. Once again, the current implementation isn't consistent with fluent fighting style.
3) You have to actually hit stuff, so you can't, e.g. help a rogue disable trap. The new void-light-void is SO going to be misused otherwise... and once again, not consistent with fluent fighting style.
4) No more "losing" finisher on not enough Ki or other reasons ("losing" finisher = not fluent).
5) (a) makes finishers easier, but (b) and (c) make them harder = balance
6) You can't easily (and hence won't often) reposition for the perfect target of a finisher - finishers are a fluent part of your fighting, not something you prepare and let loose at the right time
7) You are rewarded for being able to watch closely whether you hit or not and to react/adapt fast, making combat draw you in more, require more of your attention
8) You never miss an opportunity to execute combo, you no longer have to watch the button on your hotbar toggle to some other icon only to go back because you actually lagged and your last strike never registered = more fluency
9) You actually have one less button on your hotbar now (important for monks!)

However some things need to be rebalanced to accommodate for this. For example water-light-water finisher only makes sense if used on casters. But casters stay behind, while the Monk is in the front lines. This means that range of the finisher needs to be increased. (Or it could actually work like it says it works: clear the area, hence be a stationary effect, perhaps with transparent cloud-like visual effect, that casters need to enter to make use of - I know I would on my caster.)

Also the finishers that require 3x same strike won't work with the current high cooldown on these strikes. It would feel more fluent to have lower cooldown. Ki cost already balances this, but it's also possible to, for example, increase Ki cost right after use and let it gradually decrease back to normal level over 3-6 seconds. This would allow a Monk to burn through Ki fast in order to execute a finisher very very quickly when necessary, making combat more fluent once again.

[Memnir]

I universally dislike these ideas - and frankly like the finishers, with all their little quirks and foibles, the way they are. I don't see any reason to reduce their functionality, which is all this batch of suggestions would accomplish.

Leave the nerfs to the Devs.


/not signed

[SkyCry]

I have several monks and my suggestions aren't suggested as a nerf, it's the opposite. Of course, if I suggested just the first one, there would be a bunch of people claiming how it would make Monks overpowered. Can't make everyone happy, but at least I try.

This will allow you to easily maintain ALL light buffs at once, if you can hit targets all the time and generate enough Ki. The main point is also that you don't need to stop the DPS to do a light buff - the buff happens by itself as a consequence, not by you having to stop fighting and activating a special move.

If you see this as a nerf to monks, I'm quite disappointed. I consider this an improvement to the playability of monks, making them more natural to play, increasing immersion.

[Memnir]

I also have several monks - and yes, I see these as nothing but nerfs. It is taking away versatility and functionality from the Monk class while adding... well, nothing imho.

[Shade2891]

I have to agree with mem on this. What you are suggesting would in fact nerf monks. Have you ever been fighting and tried to throw a finisher only to find out that someone or yourself has killed the target? and thats spamming the buttons.

I find myself using buffs more than damaging finishers when in a group anyway just due to the fact that I only get maybe 2 to 3 hits per baddie cause theres 4 other melees in on it as well. And I usually meditate straight into the quest build ki and once everyone is in throw the water, light, water finisher so that the caster(s) can buff without losing so much SP don't know any casters that have a problem with that do you?

On top of all that your saying 3 consecutive hits so if you have even one miss there goes your finisher that could be a problem for str based monks in early to mid levels where I am usually killing things in 2 hits or 3 if I get a bad roll for damage. but certainly don't need the extra damage from a finisher after that.

[SkyCry]

Yes, the idea is to make monk better at what he was designed to be... but also to balance it by taking away the kind of functionality a monk should never have had.

The idea is a bit like switching monk from wizard-style to sorcerer-style - to take away some choice, but make him better at everything he does: make him do finishers faster, cheaper, more often. The result would be that a light monk won't do a fire buff before combat, but instead would be able to do it easily 3 strikes into the combat. And then continue to do air and water buffs, which monks before would have to spend more time doing, eventually stopping to care, because it's too much trouble and because it's an extra thing you have to worry about. (Do I press the magic button yet? Do I wait for a better time? Maybe if I use it now, I'll miss the perfect opportunity in a second? I'd rather keep it charged just in case... oh ****, I opened a door, it's gone!!)

Of course this can be accompanied by other balancing actions, such as reducing Ki cost of strikes (since they don't always hit). The point of suggestion isn't whether it'll cost more, but whether it's better to get more fluency and easier finishers at the cost of not being a universal just-a-bit-more buffer.

Do you want to be some kind of portable SP battery or an efficient punching machine with buffing side-effects?


Also consider what this will do to dark monks - light isn't the only way to go.

[Megaton_Samurai]

Monk fighting styles with Ki strikes are supposed to feel fluent - and they mostly do - however, finishers break this effect the way they are implemented.

a) make finishers auto-execute on last strike (no extra hand-sign animation)

I like this, I was about to write up a post about it myself.

b) make finishers be a fluent chain of strikes, with limited time allowed between each Ki strike (for example, 6 to 12 seconds)

Another point I was to make myself. I was thinking more along the lines of using a Ki attack would give you a 6 second buff. For example, a fire attack would give you a short buff called "Fiery Ki". Anytime you had a combination of floating Ki that produced a finisher, it would go off. This means you could do fire, water, fire, fire and get the burning hands finisher and still have a (soon to be expiring) water Ki still floating.

c) make only successful hits count towards the combo

Now this I do not agree with at all. Ki powers the finishers, not punching. You get Ki from punching sure, but you also do from meditating, which is very much not combat related. I have no problem at all with a monk meditating to center his Ki until it erupts over his allies in a wave of calm (or whatever).


I may make another thread about this since that last point makes a HUGE difference, and I have some other ideas for monks that I think would be helpful.

[SkyCry]

Now this I do not agree with at all. Ki powers the finishers, not punching. You get Ki from punching sure, but you also do from meditating, which is very much not combat related. I have no problem at all with a monk meditating to center his Ki until it erupts over his allies in a wave of calm (or whatever).

I understand this is the most controversial point. However this is necessary to make it really a combo attack, not silly monk punching air. Monks should NOT buffers on demand, there are other classes for that. Monks are fighting-oriented buffers, they get buffs for free, but at a cost. That's also the reason the buffs are short - to make you keep fighting and rebuffing.

Another point I was to make myself. I was thinking more along the lines of using a Ki attack would give you a 6 second buff. For example, a fire attack would give you a short buff called "Fiery Ki". Anytime you had a combination of floating Ki that produced a finisher, it would go off. This means you could do fire, water, fire, fire and get the burning hands finisher and still have a (soon to be expiring) water Ki still floating.

I like the idea not because it would not break finishers, but more because it would make it more obvious what stage of a combo you're on. Currently there's no way to tell until the finisher is ready.

[Megaton_Samurai]

I understand this is the most controversial point. However this is necessary to make it really a combo attack, not silly monk punching air. Monks should NOT buffers on demand, there are other classes for that. Monks are fighting-oriented buffers, they get buffs for free, but at a cost. That's also the reason the buffs are short - to make you keep fighting and rebuffing.

That's the whole point between the light and dark styles. If you want a fighting-oriented monk, then choose the dark path. You won't have to deal with buffing at all.

I like the idea that after an intense fight the monk can, in a flurry of stances, wash his Ki through the world around him and make magic more malleable.

[SkyCry]

But you will still do it... you'll just be doing it whole fight, instead of only at the end, when you're finally not DPSing, hence have time to make a water combo. Isn't it better to have it continuously on during the whole fight and let it linger for a minute after?

[Megaton_Samurai]

But you will still do it... you'll just be doing it whole fight, instead of only at the end, when you're finally not DPSing, hence have time to make a water combo. Isn't it better to have it continuously on during the whole fight and let it linger for a minute after?

I guess I'm not understanding the problem. A monk on the Path of Harmonious Balance can use his Ki to help his allies focus outside of combat. Why does this need to be changed?

[Raodin-bel-iori]

I personally think that the auto finisher on the last hit of the chain should be an optional clikie, kind of like defensive fighting. It's let those who like to carry finishers to do so, and those who want to use them immediately to do it their way as well. It'd also make combos a little easier to use if the cool down times on the activateable attacks were shortened. It's hard to use a dark, dark, dark, finish, or light, light, light, finish when you have to wait for it to cool down twice. By then, your target is probably dead.

[denieduk]

Only 2 things I'd change on finishers myself:

1) picking up coins or collectibles shouldn't break chain, so annoying!

2) make a bit of the UI to display the current chain progress ie "fire-light- " showing u need one more fire

[Raodin-bel-iori]

The thing I'd like to see the most for monks in particular, but possibly for other clases is adding grapple attacks. Making a grapple and skill or strength checks to maintain it, escape one, and attack during one. I'd love to be able to grab a little wizard so that he can't cast sleet storm on my party and knock his block off. Of course there would have to be the chance to hit your friends if you attack into a grapple but it would still be an awesome addition. It would also open up the way for new feats and enhancements for grappling.

[Doganpc]

I kind of get what the OP is getting at maybe not how he is trying to implement it.

Dogan
A little work and it could work.

[Halock]

The only changes i'd like to see in regards to finishers, is cut off .5 seconds of delay on the buffs, hell removing the delay entirely would make me ecstatic but i cant see that happening.

Oh, and please stop me losing them when i climb up ledges, open door, vales, pick up some mushrooms......etc etc

[t0r012]

Couple of things
The title of this post does not match your intended topic. You are not lobbying to make Monk fighting any more fluent you are suggesting that finishing move fluidity become more combat centric. It is a not so subtle difference.

I do agree that "finishing moves" how they are currently implemented from how they are "prepped" to how they are "executed" and even how the whole action is named is just plain wrong. It is way too combat focused in my opinion. At least for a harmonious balance path monk.

I think your idea is a good one for Inevitable Dominion path monks (I refuse to use the misnomer 'Dark' path) as their focus is much more combat oriented.
Their power is created, shown, focused on and dispensed in combat. Some reworking of your ideas would be required but they idea that ID monks to have their special moves flow naturally while in combat makes a lot of sense.
Maybe they should get the reduced cost auto finishers when doing the prescribed strike orders but be able to expend the full ki amount to trigger the desired effect.
Maybe have them generate more ki when fighting that HB monks.

Now for Harmonious Balance path I see the storage and expenditure of ki to be a much more deliberate process. Yes they can still cause effects with their strikes but finishing moves (also awfully misnamed) should be available when the ki is. If anything they shouldn't be allowed to use 'finishing moves' in combat or while preforming any action.
I might even go so far as to remove the generate ki when fighting with a HB monk but give them auto ki generation with a slight boost when stationary but that leads to serious balance problems with everyone being fully monk buffed all the time and fully healed so a lot of reworking would be required, maybe too much.

So yes I veered way off course and apparently am trying to completely redo the monk paths in your thread I apologize for the mini hijack but I was mostly on point.

[SkyCry]

Couple of things
The title of this post does not match your intended topic. You are not lobbying to make Monk fighting any more fluent you are suggesting that finishing move fluidity become more combat centric. It is a not so subtle difference.

What title would you propose?

I do agree that "finishing moves" how they are currently implemented from how they are "prepped" to how they are "executed" and even how the whole action is named is just plain wrong. It is way too combat focused in my opinion. At least for a harmonious balance path monk.

I think your idea is a good one for Inevitable Dominion path monks (I refuse to use the misnomer 'Dark' path) as their focus is much more combat oriented.
Their power is created, shown, focused on and dispensed in combat. Some reworking of your ideas would be required but they idea that ID monks to have their special moves flow naturally while in combat makes a lot of sense.
Maybe they should get the reduced cost auto finishers when doing the prescribed strike orders but be able to expend the full ki amount to trigger the desired effect.
Maybe have them generate more ki when fighting that HB monks.

Now for Harmonious Balance path I see the storage and expenditure of ki to be a much more deliberate process. Yes they can still cause effects with their strikes but finishing moves (also awfully misnamed) should be available when the ki is. If anything they shouldn't be allowed to use 'finishing moves' in combat or while preforming any action.
I might even go so far as to remove the generate ki when fighting with a HB monk but give them auto ki generation with a slight boost when stationary but that leads to serious balance problems with everyone being fully monk buffed all the time and fully healed so a lot of reworking would be required, maybe too much.

But even HB monks are not monks that live in monasteries, but rather are those who came out adventuring. They have learned abilities that can aid their party (as opposed to ID monks who learned abilities that can disable enemies faster), but these special abilities are combat oriented. Normally a HB monk in a monastery might have no use for these skills and would develop a different set of abilities instead. But these HB monk adventurers find it convenient - after all, they do hit bad nasty evil stuff all day long, so it's not a problem.

So yes I veered way off course and apparently am trying to completely redo the monk paths in your thread I apologize for the mini hijack but I was mostly on point.

While I'm still more inclined towards my ideas (how surprising!), I do welcome other ideas wholeheartedly. If nothing else, they give new angles to look at it and will most likely spawn some improvements. It's not all that unsurprising that a new idea like this isn't widely accepted as it was created, without any polish. What's important is whether the core of the idea has merit or not - the rest can be adjusted and polished as necessary, cooldowns decreased, delays increased, etc.