Make Monk fighting more fluent - monk finishers

[TylerTheTiler]

You buff the casters, who buff the team... that's not a reward for you paying attention in combat or making a good build. That's something any level 3 light monk can do. What makes YOU better? Do you want them to bring you for something ANYONE can do? Are you sure you want to be the portable SP-efficiency improver?

Really? Allowing the team to have 25% more spells cast during combat isn't a reward? I think it is. And the monk is a support character anyway. So yeah, they do support roles. They're not as armored as a fighter or paladin, they're not as tough as a barbarian. They don't cure as well as a cleric and they don't buff like a bard. They assist all these classes with their roles.

Now the other things you mentioned are all combat-related and you can do the proposed finishers in those situations. Throwing light heals will be even easier! (30 Ki cost instead of 40 Ki and reduced preparation time, due to reduced cooldown, which has to be reduced due to new max delay between strikes.) Doing a quick fire-fire-fire would also be easier, when needed, provided you have enough Ki and provided you can hit your target. That's the goal here - make finishers much easier to use IN combat, but impossible OUT of combat as a trade off. Out of 3 of your scenarios it would greatly improve 2, but make one impossible.

Using your system, I would not be able to aim my fire, it would just go off on it's own on the last hit of the combo. Again with the heal, sometimes archers and mages need the heal too. They're not always on the front line with you. The Ki is being focused on the monk, and they're emitting the heal so where and when they do it, should be entirely up to them and not your system of punch activated healing. Or should the monks have to punch themselves to activate it too? HB monks are much less direct combat oriented. It's like you're trying to remove that aspect of the class from the game. I disagree with your system, at least as far as with the harmonious balance path.

It's not that not hitting something is ruining your concentration. It's that you need to apply your Ki onto something to make a combo. Without applying Ki onto an enemy your Ki isn't properly/fully molded and hence isn't ready for combo. It's simply a way you choose to look at it. It's not like we have a real monk we can study and see how he works - it's fantasy and background story of it is subject to discussion.

Why does ki have to be directly applied to something else for the monk to release the effect? The fire, the monk is channeling the energy to emit the flame. The fire isnt' comming out of the enemy, again I think that contradicts the ki theory you have in place. Ki can be focused inward at the monk himself, which is implied for the buffing aspect of the monk class.

[Raodin-bel-iori]

The thing I'd like to see the most for monks in particular, but possibly for other clases is adding grapple attacks. Making a grapple and skill or strength checks to maintain it, escape one, and attack during one. I'd love to be able to grab a little wizard so that he can't cast sleet storm on my party and knock his block off. Of course there would have to be the chance to hit your friends if you attack into a grapple but it would still be an awesome addition. It would also open up the way for new feats and enhancements for grappling.

[SkyCry]

Really? Allowing the team to have 25% more spells cast during combat isn't a reward? I think it is. And the monk is a support character anyway. So yeah, they do support roles. They're not as armored as a fighter or paladin, they're not as tough as a barbarian. They don't cure as well as a cleric and they don't buff like a bard. They assist all these classes with their roles.

You don't allow your team to cast 25% more spells. First of all, it's 25% SP cost reduction, which means 1 1/3 times the spells cast. 2nd, you don't maintain it all the time. For you to maintain it all the time you need to STOP FIGHTING and go BACK to casters and make them stand in one place and do the buff. That's a lot of DPS lost for a buff they might not use at all during that minute. Ask yourself, how often do you use it? Ask yourself, how many enemies you could've killed in that time? I see you like that aspect of being a monk...

Using your system, I would not be able to aim my fire, it would just go off on it's own on the last hit of the combo. Again with the heal, sometimes archers and mages need the heal too. They're not always on the front line with you. The Ki is being focused on the monk, and they're emitting the heal so where and when they do it, should be entirely up to them and not your system of punch activated healing. Or should the monks have to punch themselves to activate it too? HB monks are much less direct combat oriented. It's like you're trying to remove that aspect of the class from the game. I disagree with your system, at least as far as with the harmonious balance path.

Yes, you won't be able to aim your fire, that's what I said right there in the original post, I know. A barbarian doesn't aim every swing perfectly either. I'm trying to make combos more like just another good swing and less like a precious expensive casting ability. Because monks aren't spellcasters, even during character creation they are classified as melee. That's what they primarily are.

And yes, archers and mages sometimes need a heal too, but you are not a dedicated healer, that you have to take care of healing of whole party all by yourself. Melee take the bulk of damage and you're helping with dealing with that damage. That's a lot of SP saved for a healer - any healer knows that.

Why does ki have to be directly applied to something else for the monk to release the effect? The fire, the monk is channeling the energy to emit the flame. The fire isnt' comming out of the enemy, again I think that contradicts the ki theory you have in place. Ki can be focused inward at the monk himself, which is implied for the buffing aspect of the monk class.

Once again, this is just background discussion, stop dragging me into that stuff, it's pointless. First make a system, then think of a pretty way stuff works inside. I can guarantee you there is a way to describe anything. People do that all the time. This is not important.

[toughguyjoe]

If Barbs miss some of their swings and they are not aimed perfectly and you think that Monk finishers are stupid and should not be able to be aimed perfectly or used as they currently are then i submit that:


Maybe Paladins should be reworked so that their smite smiply goes off on enemies when the cooldown is not running? I mean not every apaldin smites the perfect enemies, and when they run out they'll get more in a minute or two right?

They should also remove clickies because As a barbarian I shouldn't be able to greater heroism myself, thats just silly why do I need a caster?

/Sarcasm Off


Boy am I glad you're not a Dev.

[Dexol]

Your party enters a network of tunnels, your party prepares for battle. You have sufficient training and focus (ki) to assist your casters in this process. After a short kata to focus your mind you use your ability to "cleanse the local area of anything that might make spellcasting difficult, reducing the spell point costs of all nearby allies by a 25% for a short period of time".

Why would i need to hit somthing to do this? Im a peaceful monk, i don't remember my Master telling me to beat up annimals in the monistery as i learned to use these abilities.

[SkyCry]

If Barbs miss some of their swings and they are not aimed perfectly and you think that Monk finishers are stupid and should not be able to be aimed perfectly or used as they currently are then i submit that:


Maybe Paladins should be reworked so that their smite smiply goes off on enemies when the cooldown is not running? I mean not every apaldin smites the perfect enemies, and when they run out they'll get more in a minute or two right?

They should also remove clickies because As a barbarian I shouldn't be able to greater heroism myself, thats just silly why do I need a caster?

/Sarcasm Off


Boy am I glad you're not a Dev.

Maybe you could try saying the same without sarcasm? Because I'm having difficulty understanding what you're talking about.

Your party enters a network of tunnels, your party prepares for battle. You have sufficient training and focus (ki) to assist your casters in this process. After a short kata to focus your mind you use your ability to "cleanse the local area of anything that might make spellcasting difficult, reducing the spell point costs of all nearby allies by a 25% for a short period of time".

Why would i need to hit somthing to do this? Im a peaceful monk, i don't remember my Master telling me to beat up annimals in the monistery as i learned to use these abilities.

You say you clean the local area, yet the buff sticks to person, not to area. Does that quite obvious difference from what it says and what it does bother you? It doesn't seem so. So obviously you're willing to tolerate a big difference between flavor text and actual implementation. Now the truth is, writing flavor text takes 5 minutes. Creating a working, balanced system that has resistance to being exploited - that takes much more time. So I urge you to first consider the system, then care about the flavor text and written explanations of why things work that way.

[Dexol]

You say you clean the local area, yet the buff sticks to person, not to area. Does that quite obvious difference from what it says and what it does bother you? It doesn't seem so.

As you asked, I suppose it all depends on your interpretation mate, and to me, as the person the buff "sticks to" is in that local area, anything within them that was impeading spellcasting is also clensed. But i get what you mean.
I suppose from your interperetation you could cast a localised AOE spell like globe of invulnerability or a monk centred aura like Paladins have but that reduces spell point cost if you stand in it, but if the finisher auto-exicuted as you suggest it would likley be in the middle of a bunch of mobs and generally the casters wouldn't want to stand their.
On the whole I personally prefer the implimentation as is.

[TylerTheTiler]

You don't allow your team to cast 25% more spells. First of all, it's 25% SP cost reduction, which means 1 1/3 times the spells cast. 2nd, you don't maintain it all the time. For you to maintain it all the time you need to STOP FIGHTING and go BACK to casters and make them stand in one place and do the buff. That's a lot of DPS lost for a buff they might not use at all during that minute. Ask yourself, how often do you use it? Ask yourself, how many enemies you could've killed in that time? I see you like that aspect of being a monk…

Yes, 25% less cost for spells. View it however you like, the bottom line is they can support you a lot more efficiently. And try having the team use a more battle friendly formation, you don’t need to change the code to fix things you could do differently yourself. I don’t know how spread out you keep your group, but I’ve never had any problems reaching casters with my buffs and keeping them defended. I think two extra free firewalls during a battle is more dps than one monk would generate fighting one mob at a time. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

Yes, strategy beyond constantly holding the mouse button down is involved in the use of the monk class. Sometimes you do have to save your squishier team mates, buff or heal. Monks have the lowest hit die of the melee classes which mean, they’re not the ones who should be doing all the tanking. But giving support to the real tanks. They can do an OK job of it, I don’t mean to say no monks on the front line. But they’re there to support the team where they need it, DPS, Buffs, Heals, or whatever. And not just another fighter.

Yes, you won't be able to aim your fire, that's what I said right there in the original post, I know. A barbarian doesn't aim every swing perfectly either. I'm trying to make combos more like just another good swing and less like a precious expensive casting ability. Because monks aren't spellcasters, even during character creation they are classified as melee. That's what they primarily are.

No, that not what you said in your original post, because in the original post you said your idea would improve it.

Now the other things you mentioned are all combat-related and you can do the proposed finishers in those situations. Throwing light heals will be even easier! (30 Ki cost instead of 40 Ki and reduced preparation time, due to reduced cooldown, which has to be reduced due to new max delay between strikes.) Doing a quick fire-fire-fire would also be easier, when needed, provided you have enough Ki and provided you can hit your target. That's the goal here - make finishers much easier to use IN combat, but impossible OUT of combat as a trade off. Out of 3 of your scenarios it would greatly improve 2, but make one impossible.

The one being impossible being the buffing. Because you just went off on how great your system would improve the other two scenarios. And didn’t even acknowledge the pre combat buff part.

And yes, archers and mages sometimes need a heal too, but you are not a dedicated healer, that you have to take care of healing of whole party all by yourself. Melee take the bulk of damage and you're helping with dealing with that damage. That's a lot of SP saved for a healer - any healer knows that. Once again, this is just background discussion, stop dragging me into that stuff, it's pointless. First make a system, then think of a pretty way stuff works inside. I can guarantee you there is a way to describe anything. People do that all the time. This is not important.

I never said monks are dedicated healers, I said they’re support. As in their abilities support the team. Not that they shouldn’t be able to fight. As a support role includes, fighting where they need it most, if the casters are getting beat on, what better way to support them than by fighting? Oh, and you can carry an sp buff back with you while you continue to support them, and get the ki off the guys you kill to bring a heal back to the front with the other tanks.

I'm not dragging you into anything, you suppose your theories, and back ground fluff, on me to support your ideas. I'm showing you why your theory is flawed, why it shouldn't work the way you claim it should have to...

Here, have some of your background story back.

Your Ki strike is about transferring the Ki energy in a forceful way, which can only be done using direct contact with target.

The point is you manipulate Ki in a certain way.

The problem is, monk in monastery is something different from monk out there killing stuff. He mastered special techniques that are especially useful in combat (finishers), but require him to actively output Ki into enemies.

But even HB monks are not monks that live in monasteries, but rather are those who came out adventuring. They have learned abilities that can aid their party (as opposed to ID monks who learned abilities that can disable enemies faster), but these special abilities are combat oriented. Normally a HB monk in a monastery might have no use for these skills and would develop a different set of abilities instead. But these HB monk adventurers find it convenient - after all, they do hit bad nasty evil stuff all day long, so it's not a problem.

You’re adding your own background when it suits you, in which case why HB monks shouldn't be able to buff outside of combat. And if someone else uses their theory to support why they should, you’re calling them out on it. That’s not right. You have just as much ‘background’ explaining why your system should be the only one. Which I don’t agree with. But if I use my ‘background’ which rationalizes how it currently works, I’m dragging you into it?

No, it sounds like you don't want to face the facts. Your system would be more of a hinderance than an asset to the monk class. You remove the classes versatility. if you want a melee only class, try a fighter or a barbarian. I don't think the monk is well suited to how you want to play.

[SkyCry]

Yes, 25% less cost for spells. View it however you like, the bottom line is they can support you a lot more efficiently. And try having the team use a more battle friendly formation, you don’t need to change the code to fix things you could do differently yourself. I don’t know how spread out you keep your group, but I’ve never had any problems reaching casters with my buffs and keeping them defended. I think two extra free firewalls during a battle is more dps than one monk would generate fighting one mob at a time. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

And yet you can do buffs (like for that firewall) with the system I suggest. What you can't do are buffs *outside* combat.

Yes, strategy beyond constantly holding the mouse button down is involved in the use of the monk class. Sometimes you do have to save your squishier team mates, buff or heal. Monks have the lowest hit die of the melee classes which mean, they’re not the ones who should be doing all the tanking. But giving support to the real tanks. They can do an OK job of it, I don’t mean to say no monks on the front line. But they’re there to support the team where they need it, DPS, Buffs, Heals, or whatever. And not just another fighter.

Any DPS can come back and kick stuff that's hitting your casters. You don't need to be a monk to do that. What HB monks can do are buff and healing finisher. That's the only difference that makes them more supportive. However I consider the buffs and other finishers awkward, hence the reason for this whole thread.

No, that not what you said in your original post, because in the original post you said your idea would improve it.

In my original post I said this:

6) You can't easily (and hence won't often) reposition for the perfect target of a finisher - finishers are a fluent part of your fighting, not something you prepare and let loose at the right time

If you think I said something that conflicts with it, please do quote me.

The one being impossible being the buffing. Because you just went off on how great your system would improve the other two scenarios. And didn’t even acknowledge the pre combat buff part.

It's not that I didn't even acknowledge them. I did. In fact I mention it in the original post: I want them gone. That isn't a side effect, it's part of the design.

I never said monks are dedicated healers, I said they’re support. As in their abilities support the team. Not that they shouldn’t be able to fight. As a support role includes, fighting where they need it most, if the casters are getting beat on, what better way to support them than by fighting? Oh, and you can carry an sp buff back with you while you continue to support them, and get the ki off the guys you kill to bring a heal back to the front with the other tanks.

You have to go away from fighting, which is your primary role, and do a finisher on casters. Then you have to go back to fighting. I don't find that convenient, do you? Anyone can go back and kill stuff that's attacking casters/healers. In fact, Arcane Archers don't even have to go back! Monks aren't really especially good at this job.

I'm not dragging you into anything, you suppose your theories, and back ground fluff, on me to support your ideas. I'm showing you why your theory is flawed, why it shouldn't work the way you claim it should have to...

Here, have some of your background story back.

You’re adding your own background when it suits you, in which case why HB monks shouldn't be able to buff outside of combat. And if someone else uses their theory to support why they should, you’re calling them out on it. That’s not right. You have just as much ‘background’ explaining why your system should be the only one. Which I don’t agree with. But if I use my ‘background’ which rationalizes how it currently works, I’m dragging you into it?

Yes, you and some other people are dragging me into thinking of some imaginary way to explain it. I'm forced to create and write you a background story, instead of discussing the merits of this system. The "some of my background story back" is what I created to satisfy people, who have difficulty discussing rules without having a background story to them. I'd rather first create the system, then, when it's done, think of flavor text.

No, it sounds like you don't want to face the facts. Your system would be more of a hinderance than an asset to the monk class. You remove the classes versatility. if you want a melee only class, try a fighter or a barbarian. I don't think the monk is well suited to how you want to play.

If the only class versatility is doing water buff before caster buffing, then yes, I'm removing class versatility. But I add much more: I add the ability to use what we got, not just keep it on the shelf and let other classes point fingers at it and say "Look, you got all that and you're not even using it! So stop asking for more!" Because that's what we have right now: some finishers collecting dust on a shelf, because they are awkward to use.

[Memnir]

Turbine, it seems, has no problems with Monk Buffs being used out of combat. In fact - they seem to encourage it - hence why we have Meditation. A way to build Ki out of combat. An entire game mechanic that encourages the Monk to build Ki in a non-combative situation.

But I know... I know... you, SkyCry, have the idea that Monks should be redesigned, and modified because you don't like them. But... many people do. Including Turbine.


Please refrain from multi-quoting me in rebuttal, because I don't care. I fully understand your points and don't want to read them again, as they've been repeated ad nauseam by now. I just disagree with your ideas on Monks - and think your ideas would be bad for the class overall. I acknowledge your right to disagree, and am just asking to be spared another multi-quoted restatement of your points that I will just ignore anyway.

[TreknaQudane]

If the only class versatility is doing water buff before caster buffing, then yes, I'm removing class versatility. But I add much more: I add the ability to use what we got, not just keep it on the shelf and let other classes point fingers at it and say "Look, you got all that and you're not even using it! So stop asking for more!" Because that's what we have right now: some finishers collecting dust on a shelf, because they are awkward to use.

I find finishers quite useful on Epic, and with the lower saves coming to trash mobs they should be more so.

The Trembling Earth and Shining Star have to be my favorites to use however.

[shadowhop]

I do like the idea of the monk who is a combat buffing fighter, because it is different than how the other classes work. It is not just buffing at the start of combat or granting a bonus to a rogue when he needs to diable a trap. The way the OP describes the combat, it will go more smooth because you don't have to make a finisher move as a separate action but more something that happens when you activated your three moves.

It is true that turbine makes it possible for out of combat buffs with the meditation ability, so i don't think they disagree with the current implement of the monks buffing system.

[Quijonsith]

There are alot of points in this suggestion that i could go into discussion about, but I don't have the time. For many the same reasons as others in this thread, I do not agree at all with the proposed 'fixes' in the OP.

The main thing I will point out is that you do not, I repeat "DO NOT", have to move to buff someone else. Just like a caster can center haste on another group member, HB monks too can center their buffs on someone else in the group. I routinely keep aligning the heavens on my casters/healers in raids throughout the entire raid without moving from the fight. I keep them targeted and keep up my DPS strike rotation until 1 min has gone by then I hit 4 keys in rapid succession to cast it again, then back to my strike rotation.

[TylerTheTiler]

Awesome, I didn't reven realize that was possible! Thanks for the info. But I suppose now since you can't punch your team to activate this buff it's gonna come under some fire with the Original poster.

[Aaxeyu]

Being rewarded for hitting air is ridicolous imo.

[SkyCry]

There are alot of points in this suggestion that i could go into discussion about, but I don't have the time. For many the same reasons as others in this thread, I do not agree at all with the proposed 'fixes' in the OP.

The main thing I will point out is that you do not, I repeat "DO NOT", have to move to buff someone else. Just like a caster can center haste on another group member, HB monks too can center their buffs on someone else in the group. I routinely keep aligning the heavens on my casters/healers in raids throughout the entire raid without moving from the fight. I keep them targeted and keep up my DPS strike rotation until 1 min has gone by then I hit 4 keys in rapid succession to cast it again, then back to my strike rotation.

Great tip, thanks!


I'm currently thinking about all the negative and positive responses I got to the suggestions, but so far I haven't come up with an idea that would address all of them. I think the meditation point is a valid one and maybe I could include it somehow.



However in the mean time what about this?

Path of <your favorite cute animal>
I: Your missed Ki strikes no longer count towards finishers; your finisher chain resets 9s after last successful Ki strike; your finishers automatically activate when they are ready and don't cost extra Ki; all your Ki strikes have cooldown reduced by 1 second
II: Your finisher chain resets 12s after last successful Ki strike; all your Ki strikes have cooldown reduced by 2 seconds
III: Your finisher chain resets 15s after last successful Ki strike; all your Ki strikes have cooldown reduced by 3 seconds
IV: Your finisher chain resets 18s after last successful Ki strike; all your Ki strikes have cooldown reduced by 4 seconds


The reduced delay is akin to Paladin Exalted Smite, which goes from 6s to 2s at tier IV. However this delay applies to all Ki strikes that count towards a finisher (fires of purity, touch of death), but not strikes that don't count towards it (such as stunning blow).

[Quijonsith]

Without getting overdrawn into my problems with the suggestions as a whole, one inherent flaw I see with the proposed system of counting strikes towards finishers on successful hits only and making you track when you hit/miss is that there is far too much of a delay in being notified of a hit/miss. You can't tell quickly enough if a particular strike landed, especially a full speed 20 monk.

When trying to cast a buff as a HB monk you would lose far more DPS under this system than you would currently because you would have to slow down everything you do and wait to see if a strike landed or not. Currently, as I said, I can just hit 4 buttons, buff goes off, and I'm back to fighting nice and fluently as the title of the thread suggests it should be.

Here's my suggestion my friend. Play around with an HB monk while targeting who you intend the buff to go off on and see how much different it feels. I think that having to move away from the fight is what has you feeling like things aren't smooth and fluidic.

Now as far as dark monks go, I certainly feel that their finishers would greatly benefit from your suggestion of going off immediately at the end of the qualifying combo, however I also feel like taking away their ability to release the stored Ki from the combo at a time of their choosing is also detrimental.

A final thought: manipulation of Ki is not about striking an enemy and putting it into them. Performing kata is not simply 'punching air'. Anyone with any real martial arts training understands that there is ALOT of effort, focus, and energy involved in performing kata. Ki is more internal to the individual than it is external. One chooses to use it and when to release it. There is just as much energy in a strike mid Kata as there is when engaged with an opponent.

[SkyCry]

I think the tracking of combos needs improvement with or without this suggestion. Like it was mentioned before, one could get a self-buff-like effect like "fire Ki" and then also "light Ki" when proper Ki strikes are made in the right order (doing fire with only light up will remove light). That would give at least some kind of indicator of what state the finisher is in at the moment.


(Furthermore the suggestion was to allow it to charge up in any sequence and even charge different finishers - so you could have fire Ki, water Ki, positive Ki, another positive Ki and air Ki up and then do another water Ki strike and it'll make water buff ready to go. Personally I think it would be a great improvement, up to the point of being overpowered - I think that would be going too far.)

[Raodin-bel-iori]

I personally think that the auto finisher on the last hit of the chain should be an optional clikie, kind of like defensive fighting. It's let those who like to carry finishers to do so, and those who want to use them immediately to do it their way as well. It'd also make combos a little easier to use if the cool down times on the activateable attacks were shortened. It's hard to use a dark, dark, dark, finish, or light, light, light, finish when you have to wait for it to cool down twice. By then, your target is probably dead.

[Lleren]

I would like this idea a whole lot more if hitting a mob was not suggested as a requirement for a finisher to fire off.