Plz, need some advice for my Drow Sorceres

[Ghustor]

Im newbie on DDO, but veteran on many MMO and DnD, so I make a little project for a Drow Sorceres and I whant to know the opinions of the more experients sorceres. Please, I realy whant to know the pros and cons, mainly the cons. TKS!!

Drow (for more DC)
Neutral (no reason)


Start Atribs:
STR 08
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 08
CHA 20 (all next points and possible itens here)


Skills:
Concentration MAX
UMD MAX
Tumble 1
the rest on Spot or Balance, dont know


Feats*:
Focus: Evocation
G. Focus: Evocation
Empower S.
Maximize S.
Heighten S.
2 othes betwen (Force of Personality, Extend, Enlarge, Quick S., Focus [other Scholl] and G. Focus [same other scholl]) <- help!!

*no Spell Penetration, I know, it is the main plan, use only spells that dont have Spell Resistence.


List of Main Spells (need advices for complete the list):
1) Niac's Cold Ray / Expeditius Retreat / Night Shild / Jump
2) Scorching Ray / Web / Electric Loop (only for daze efect on late game, cuz the focus on evocation)
3) Fireball / Frost Lance / Displacement
4) Wall of Fire / Stoneskin
5)
6) Chaing Lightning
7) Delayed Fire Ball
8) Polar Ray / Great Shout (for the stun efect)
9) Meteor Swarm / Mass Hold Monster / Wail of Banshee (not sure about this last one)

-> on this list, ofensive Evocation Spells without Spell Resistence:
Niac's / Scorshing Ray / Electric Loop / Fireball / Frost lance / Wall of Fire / Chaining Light / Delayed Fireball / Polar Ray / Great Shout / Meteor Swarm

-> ofensive Spells without Spell Resistence from anothers Scholl:
Web (conj) / Mass Hold Monster (ench) / Wail of Banshee (necro)

-> ofensive Spells with Spell Resistence from anothers Scholl:
Wail of Banshee (necro)


Enchantments:

Sorcerer Bloodline of Power
Sorcerer Improved Empowering III
Sorcerer Improved Maximizing III
Sorcerer Lineage of Energy III
Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Energy II
Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Sorcerer Energy Manipulation IV
Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV
Sorcerer Charisma III
Sorcerer Subtle Spellcasting I or Sorceres Energy of the Drabonblod I (just to Progression Requeriments)

[QuintonReece]

First piece of advise, go Warforged.

Much more HP and immunities.

Very survivable and self healing.


You wont regret it.

[tinyelvis]

You truly learn to miss a DC build when you play a toon lacking in that area. Case in point, I play mostly a Drow or WF caster at ultimate level play. My WF suffers from a noticable inability to reliably land DC related spells compared to my Drow (however, there are other areas where he shines). I recently got around to TR'n my warforge sorc in an effort to address this deficiency. Even though I double focused, I was annoyed at low levels how poorly he performed in the spell DC area (lots of WF players resort to melee at low level to overcome this issue....I find this idea unapealing). Finally, at 6th level I respec'd to double evocation focus and use Frost lance and fireball now liberally.

As a drow with double evocation focus you will really dominate mid levels. However, you need to pay attention to the school of your spells. It does little good to focus in evocation if your main attack spells are not of that school. You will probably find your niacs a little lacking since you will be casting it like a spec'd WF. Your evocation focus acid spray will land well, however, this is a poor spell and most find they need to both maximize and empower it to get good effect. If you have the resources, double focus conjuration, then swap feats at 7th level when you take frost lance to evocation (also take acid blast and swap for fireball then).

I would suggest heighten before maximize or empower. Especially if you are serious about niac use. In general, when casting spells with saves, you do half to no damage when a mob saves. In these cases, max and empower points will be inefficiently used to say the least. Also, I would take maximize before empower. If you are reliably landing your spells, then two casts of a low level spell is cheaper than maximizing a poor DC spell and with potentially much more damage dished out.

Scorching ray is a great spell but it does poor damage until you hit 7th level. No need to take it until then. Web is a great spell, however, you can buff your charisma by 4 points with eagles splendor (that's a +2 to DC), improving your offensive capability. Scroll casting ES is also an option.

Finally, you are missing a good no save spell. Two good choices are magic missile and shocking grasp. They both have strengths and weaknesses. However, you will be more effective against some targets with one of these spells. Based on your enhancements, I would suggest scroll/potion/clicky casting jump or shield and taking one of these spells instead. Or, in your case, dump niacs and learn to use shocking grasp. Not doing this will make you impotent against foes like the end boss in Storm cleave.

Not taking spell penetration will make high level play more difficult. You are a Drow with max charisma and potentially a very high spell DC. At high level play, you will waste your potential and be less effective than you could be. You can get away with no spell pen feat, however, you need good equipment and enhancements to make up for it.

Consider ball lightning and cone of cold, you will probably have trouble with chain lightning.

[MrStinky]

While going WF is not bad advice I think Drow is your best choice for a first time caster build. The immunities are nice for WF but the -2 dc will hurt when casting CC and FOD or PK. I am not knocking WF sorcs because they are a lot of fun but it really depends on what you want to focus on.

If you just want to nuke stuff WF is the way to go and boost your con as high as possible. However playing both a WF and a Drow sorc The drow although a bit more squishy can can FOD or PK at will. I think that a drow sorc will be much more versitile and more fun if this is your first sorc so thats my recomendation, but either build requires as many HPs as you can muster so keep that in mind.

[gwlech]

I don't see toughness. That is a feat you should really take by level 6, unless you like having your brains on the end of an ogre's club.

[QuintonReece]

2DC on Warforged spells pales in comparison when presented with the immunities and the self heal ability. (Not to mention the better Con scores)

ESPECIALLY for a first caster, you need the survivability.

Check with some of the best casters(not necessarily the highest levels) on your server and see what they have chosen.

AND if you TR a couple times as a Wizard you'll make up for the 2 DC if you care to.

[MrStinky]

2DC on Warforged spells pales in comparison when presented with the immunities and the self heal ability. (Not to mention the better Con scores)

ESPECIALLY for a first caster, you need the survivability.

Check with some of the best casters(not necessarily the highest levels) on your server and see what they have chosen.

AND if you TR a couple times as a Wizard you'll make up for the 2 DC if you care to.

2 Dc is very important for a caster I said the drow would be a better firstime build because they would be successful using all spells and could get a good idea of how versitile a sorc can be.

Drow can survive just fine they just have to be played the way a caster should be played this will teach them to not run ahead and nuke everything ahead of the party like most WF builds do.

The Immunities are nice and i am not discounting them but casters are known for there casting ability not thier immunities.

[gwlech]

2 Dc is very important for a caster I said the drow would be a better firstime build because they would be successful using all spells and could get a good idea of how versitile a sorc can be.

Drow can survive just fine they just have to be played the way a caster should be played this will teach them to not run ahead and nuke everything ahead of the party like most WF builds do.

With limited spell selections and a new player it is going to be hard to gauge any type of "versatility". Often you will see level 16+ sorcerers running around with niacs, mage armor, burning hands, and eagles splendor still in their spell lists, because they couldn't be bothered to switch them out because it costs plat.

The way a caster "should" be played can vary. I for one, prefer more aggressive casters in my groups. I get irritated by sorc/wiz that just stand in the back and do nothing but the ocassional CC spell and nuke/finger.

[QuintonReece]

2 Dc is very important for a caster I said the drow would be a better firstime build because they would be successful using all spells and could get a good idea of how versitile a sorc can be.
I dont disagree that DC is important. We will disagree that 2 DC endgame is really important enough to loose the extra hit points, immunities, and self heal ability. Sorc's are not as much about versatility(see wizard) as they are about power and and SP to use the power.

Drow can survive just fine they just have to be played the way a caster should be played this will teach them to not run ahead and nuke everything ahead of the party like most WF builds do.
Yes they can be played well. But for a new player or even a vet, the bonus's of a WF outweigh the needs of a drow.(see Spock)


The Immunities are nice and i am not discounting them but casters are known for there casting ability not thier immunities.
I'm not concerned with what casters are traditionally known for, I'm more concerned with what casters are capable of.

See responses in red.

[Carpone]

You truly learn to miss a DC build when you play a toon lacking in that area. Case in point, I play mostly a Drow or WF caster at ultimate level play. My WF suffers from a noticable inability to reliably land DC related spells compared to my Drow (however, there are other areas where he shines).

Agreed. My first character was a Warforged Sorcerer and I learned alot playing him. Now that I've got insight into the class, Human or Drow is a better end-game choice.

[MrStinky]

Just play what you want I have wizzies, and sorcs both drow and WF and i get more WOW NICE!! comments from groups with my drow then i do with a WF. Although I can solo much more with my WF.

I didnt know we were talking endgame but IMO Drow would be the better race to learn how to play as a caster.

I am a PRO WF but ive been playing for several years and by playing squishy casters I have learned alot more then playing WF (run in FW jump around repair yourself..repeat). again thats just my opinion so put your flamethrowers away. The OP just wanted opinions from experienced players so i gave my 2 sheckles.

[QuintonReece]

From a new players perspective I would think that they would enjoy the game more by being more survivable instead of being "that guy" dying all the time or being so squishy you're afraid to do the job.

The spells that need DC's to function are only a subsection of all spells. Even then my original argument that 2DC does not outweigh the WF benefits stands.

Who cares if your web or finger of death is ''slightly'' more effective if you keep dying.

How many times have you heard people saying they dont want to group with someone that they have to keep rezzing vs. someone that has an occasional save against their spell? How many people take notice on the occasional save that a mob makes against a spell? Sure they would if it was a lot, but at 2DC it is not "a lot." Everyone notices when a squishy character keeps dying. For a vetran that knows how to play a character well dying is not as much an issue, for a new player it's huge.

Even then, how many vets would prefer being able to solo more content than being tied to having a healer?

These are the reasons a WF is a better starting character and ending character. IMO!

[Spisey]

Well said fleastank!

[Mithran]

It looks good to me. Putting Skill Points into UMD for Heal scrolls can be a good idea for when you can make an item for UMD from the Shroud for self-healing. I'm really enjoying my own Drow Sorceress. She has the benefit of a +3 Charisma Tome and a +3 Constitution Tome. Mine started with a 13 Constitution so the +3 worked well and she has a 40 Charisma, now. I think you'll enjoy the build.

Just as an fyi, it's considered obligatory here to post "It'd be better as warforged" any time someone posts a build that's not warforged.

[QuintonReece]

Well said fleastank!

Thanks man! Coming from the A#1 WF Sorc himself.

Seriously OP, If you wanna learn from someone ask Spisey. Check out his build on Argo, probably one of the best I've ever seen. A very competent veteran player.

Now to Spisey: Disregard every nice thing I've said about you. You suck!

[tinyelvis]

2DC on Warforged spells pales in comparison when presented with the immunities and the self heal ability. (Not to mention the better Con scores)

ESPECIALLY for a first caster, you need the survivability.

Check with some of the best casters(not necessarily the highest levels) on your server and see what they have chosen.

AND if you TR a couple times as a Wizard you'll make up for the 2 DC if you care to.

Some of your comments are nothing more than personal opinion (for example, if the option were available, I would trade 100 hps away for +2 to my DC), while other points are just not true. You cannot make up the DC difference no matter how many times you TR wizard. At best you can get +1 to DC and then only after spending a feat. No matter though, the OP doesn't have a 32 point build let alone multiple TR capability. Most people who poo poo the DC build don't play them and have little experience with the differences between WF and Drow. From your incorrect comments my guess is you fall into this catagory. My guess is that WF sorc builds have seen their high water mark and will die out to advance play style with WF wizard (all of the DC benifits of Drow plus the benifits of WF). The best WF arcane casters currently play wizards.

Most people who play first casters complain about their inability to land spells not their need for hit points (though they usually need these too). The OP has proposed a max con/chrs Drow build. Probably the best choice for a new player limited to 28 pt build.

[MrStinky]

Some of your comments are nothing more than personal opinion (for example, if the option were available, I would trade 100 hps away for +2 to my DC), while other points are just not true. You cannot make up the DC difference no matter how many times you TR wizard. At best you can get +1 to DC and then only after spending a feat. No matter though, the OP doesn't have a 32 point build let alone multiple TR capability. Most people who poo poo the DC build don't play them and have little experience with the differences between WF and Drow. From your incorrect comments my guess is you fall into this catagory. My guess is that WF sorc builds have seen their high water mark and will die out to advance play style with WF wizard (all of the DC benifits of Drow plus the benifits of WF). The best WF arcane casters currently play wizards.

Most people who play first casters complain about their inability to land spells not their need for hit points (though they usually need these too). The OP has proposed a max con/chrs Drow build. Probably the best choice for a new player limited to 28 pt build.

*Clears Throat* YEAH WHAT HE SAID!!

[QuintonReece]

Some of your comments are nothing more than personal opinion (for example, if the option were available, I would trade 100 hps away for +2 to my DC), while other points are just not true.
1. Fact: I have commented that the WF have superior HP(much superior), superior immunities, and self heal abilities. These are facts that I can show you in the compendium, not opinions. The only "opinion" that you may speak of is that this outweighs the 2 DC.
You cannot make up the DC difference no matter how many times you TR wizard. At best you can get +1 to DC and then only after spending a feat.
2. On this point you are correct, I mistook the modifiers of Spell Penn for DC's. My bad, I can admit when I'm wrong.
No matter though, the OP doesn't have a 32 point build let alone multiple TR capability.
3. Everyone has these capabilities with the DDO Store, or from favor in the 32point category.
Most people who poo poo the DC build don't play them and have little experience with the differences between WF and Drow. From your incorrect comments my guess is you fall into this catagory.
4. I have created 4 different capped Sorc's and know the difference. Because I mixed up the spell penn/dc statement doesnt automatically qualify me for your self imposed definition of not having played such, so stop guessing, it makes you wrong. Same with your assumption that "most" dont play them because of little experience. That's just not true.
My guess is that WF sorc builds have seen their high water mark and will die out to advance play style with WF wizard (all of the DC benifits of Drow plus the benifits of WF). The best WF arcane casters currently play wizards.
5. WF Sorc's arent going anywhere. People enjoy the extra spell points(compared to wizards) and always will. this is where you make a very incorrect statement.
Most people who play first casters complain about their inability to land spells not their need for hit points (though they usually need these too).
6. Not true. Most complaints I have heard that they are too squishy. Or run out of SP. Stop using the word "most" as if you have done some sort of polling. Maybe "most that you have come across" or "most complaints you have heard." But I doubt your experience is the norm based on your comments.
The OP has proposed a max con/chrs Drow build. Probably the best choice for a new player limited to 28 pt build. Here we disagree for the afore mentioned points.

Ok, comments in red.

I stand corrected about the DC bonus from past lives of wizards.

That, however, does not nullify my previous arguments that the benefits of a WF Sorc outweigh the 2DC bonus of a drow. Extra life, immunities, and self heal still outweigh the slightly less DC of a sub-section of spells.

[tinyelvis]

Ok, comments in red.

I stand corrected about the DC bonus from past lives of wizards.

That, however, does not nullify my previous arguments that the benefits of a WF Sorc outweigh the 2DC bonus of a drow. Extra life, immunities, and self heal still outweigh the slightly less DC of a sub-section of spells.

A slightly higher DC is true. However, what you and others like you fail to understand is that this can lead to an incredible difference in offensive performance (10's to 100's time better). A whole lot of people choose to be much more versatile and capable offensively over the defensive oriented approach of higher HP's and Spell healing. Its kinda like the difference in ideology between the German military philosophy vs. the French just prior to the Spring of 1940.

[Varis]

My drow has to use a scroll to heal up... but each time I do, I get 291 health back...

No sir, warforged are not better casters, not even close.


They also make a poor first time sorcerer experience because not only are you 2DC behind (and probably unable to use the most powerful low level spell niacs), you also lack the ungodly amount of gear needed to tweak your DC to an acceptable level where a warforged starts to be effective.

Some will tout that warforged are just sooo tough, having more hit points and self heal! It is quite true that warforged are pretty tough to kill and so you can afford to do more mistakes in combat.

Sadly, being hard to kill does not make you a good sorcerer. If you have to rely on stuff like polar ray and magic missile because you can't land wail, hold or a nuke spell without them saving, you may as well make a melee sorc.


Try human or Drow for a first sorcerer, learn to nuke right and learn to properly move.