Give Shintao monk automatic longsword proficiency/centeredness

[dogpig00]

Currently Shintao vs Ninja Spy (even without the shortsword part) is weak, not to mention the extra junk feat required. If Shintao monk gets automatic longsword proficiency and centeredness at Shintao I, and gets improved critical, longsword at shintao II, this can make shintao worth taking.

And just to balance out monks who wants to use longsword and not shintao PrE, remove the weapon focus, slashing from the requirement of whirling steel strike feat, and make the feat selectable as monk bonus feat at level 1/2/6

[Drfirewater79]

I still dont understand why anyone who is planning to be a full monk would want to have centered shortswords or longswords ...

Handwraps do way way more damage

banishing weighted 1% is about to be boosted considerably

now its banishing stunning+2 weighted 3%

so you dont need the crit range for banishing ... your gonna stun people alot faster with handwraps then you will with longswords or shortswords ... using weapons removes TOD damage bonus ...

there is no advantage to taking weapons on a MONK

putting longswords into shintao 1 just makes it the next tempest BS ...

people splashing just enough monk to get shintao I for longsword feat?

why when you could take 2 lvls of monk and rest fighter and take the feat anyway?

taking 6 lvls of a class just to get a weapon option sounds worthless ...

if anything make it a monk bonus feat so you can take it at lvl 1 in place of dodge or deflect arrows ... this makes more sense for a multiclass ... the only people who will ever use this garbage feat.

[Bacab]

I'm not really opposed to this...though I still think the whirling steel and ninja-spy shortsword thing seems very un-monky to me.

Oh DrFireWater...the one advantage for longsword or shortsword is Dr- Bypassing weapons for Pit Fiends and Horned Devils.

Also I kinda think dual-wielding Treason may be cool.

[grodon9999]

I'm not really opposed to this...though I still think the whirling steel and ninja-spy shortsword thing seems very un-monky to me.

Oh DrFireWater...the one advantage for longsword or shortsword is Dr- Bypassing weapons for Pit Fiends and Horned Devils.

Also I kinda think dual-wielding Treason may be cool.

Never saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" have you?

[Uska]

Never saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" have you?

thought it was stupid movie and no to swords for shinato monks but yes getting the ability to have silver as they will bysheck and cold iron

[Aerendil]

- Eberron monks can use longswords, spears, and a few other items while centered, so this whole "weapon-wielding Monk" concept is grounded in core books;

- ToD rings + metalline wraps will be far superior to metalline of PG weapons, but isn't an option until level 18 basically. You can get by with Devout's, but most Monks don't pick up a pair prior to level 10ish.
Until that time, weapons aren't a bad deal. It tends to be around level 10-12ish that wraps start pulling noticeably ahead (lvl 9-10ish if Dark with ToD).

- I agree there does need to be more incentive for Dark monks to use SSs. They've given free Imp. crit and centering shortsword access, and yet I still can't see any Monk using them after level 10 or so. Stunning wraps work just as well, and you can get all of the special effects such as smiting, banishing, etc. on wraps too, and you don't require 2 of them to make it useful (which you would with SSs / LSs).

- Longswords are too feat-intensive currently on a pure Monk, and provide no encouragement to pick up. Handwraps far surpass them for dps; are easier/cheaper to equip (except for perhaps metalline of PG wraps which are the sole exception); and none of the special attacks work with weapons currently.
Further adding to this issue, the only Monks I forsee possibly using Longswords would be Light monks, since Dark monks have ToD (fists only) and free SSs - and the one light PrE going in focuses on *FISTS*.
And any Monk who just wants to wield dual vorpals could use kamas...

So, yeah.
Even if they gave longswords to Shintao, it wouldn't solve many of the underlying issues making weapons completely unattractive to Monks.
Handwraps have been given so many perks not in core books that they're now well above and beyond any other weapon for Monks, so there's absolutely no incentive to use them. Especially if you're expected to pay anywhere from 2-4 feats for them!!

[Drfirewater79]

I'm not really opposed to this...though I still think the whirling steel and ninja-spy shortsword thing seems very un-monky to me.

Oh DrFireWater...the one advantage for longsword or shortsword is Dr- Bypassing weapons for Pit Fiends and Horned Devils.

Also I kinda think dual-wielding Treason may be cool.

tod ring and ANY set of metaline wraps bypass dr and better then any longsword or shortsword

TOD is a pretty easy raid .... end fight is only difficult if you dont have the right classes (light monk anti stun and good healers) once you have A TOD ring regardless of which one ... your bypassing all the dr you need just fine ...

are you seriously considering making min II longswords or shortswords on a full MONK!!!!

what a waste of ingredients ...

handwraps do more base damage ... .

and if you cannot wait to get TOD ring ... get one character set up for elite shadow crypt and open it with a friend and switch back to your monk then sack that chest with as many guildies as possible ... if you can get 6 man group where your the only one who needs the wraps and you run till sack ... it wont take you long ...

if your guild wont do it with you ... look me up on sarlona ... as long as you can open it on elite i will run it with you on my monk until we both get a set ... .even if it takes me 2 months of sacking every weekend to do it.

[Bacab]

tod ring and ANY set of metaline wraps bypass dr and better then any longsword or shortsword

TOD is a pretty easy raid .... end fight is only difficult if you dont have the right classes (light monk anti stun and good healers) once you have A TOD ring regardless of which one ... your bypassing all the dr you need just fine ...

are you seriously considering making min II longswords or shortswords on a full MONK!!!!

what a waste of ingredients ...

handwraps do more base damage ... .

and if you cannot wait to get TOD ring ... get one character set up for elite shadow crypt and open it with a friend and switch back to your monk then sack that chest with as many guildies as possible ... if you can get 6 man group where your the only one who needs the wraps and you run till sack ... it wont take you long ...

if your guild wont do it with you ... look me up on sarlona ... as long as you can open it on elite i will run it with you on my monk until we both get a set ... .even if it takes me 2 months of sacking every weekend to do it.

Nah, I was not gonna make min2 Longswords. I was just pointing out subtly that there are 600 threads complaining about lack of Greensteel Handwraps. And 400 Threads about how hard Devout's are to get.

My idea for a MNK was to go Ninja-Spy and use Metalline/PG or Silver/Holy Shortswords until I had ToD Rings.

I 100% agree...ToD Rings>Swords.

Though maybe someone has a glut of nice shortswords and/or longswords laying around it'd be neat to try out.

Though TBH I am fascinated by the MNK class, but I generally just play casters.

[Chai]

Yeap handwraps do better damage, until you have to fight something that has DR #/slash. Then you can use your gimpy kamas, or you can use longswords. This gives monks another vorpal option and short swords would give them a much better banishing option.

It also make it possible to do the shroud if unlucky farming DR breaking handwraps, because metalling PG weapons are easier to find in those categories until the monk can pay off the national debt to afford some DR breaking wraps.

[Missing_Minds]

Yeap handwraps do better damage, until you have to fight something that has DR #/slash. Then you can use your gimpy kamas, or you can use longswords.

d8 heavy weapon, vs a d6 light weapon.... Yeah, that is gimpy alright.

[Drfirewater79]

Yeap handwraps do better damage, until you have to fight something that has DR #/slash. Then you can use your gimpy kamas, or you can use longswords. This gives monks another vorpal option and short swords would give them a much better banishing option.

It also make it possible to do the shroud if unlucky farming DR breaking handwraps, because metalling PG weapons are easier to find in those categories until the monk can pay off the national debt to afford some DR breaking wraps.

banishing weighted 1% is far superior to shortswords .. in the new update they are even better ... stunning +2 weighted 3% .... major upgrade ... monks never have issues with getting crits on mobs that are not red named and red named mobs are not banishable anyway.

only good thing about shortswords for monks is it allows for w/p dual weilding ...
and really malidroit bone breaking is a nicer option when looking for fast auto crit though this may change with monk attack speed being taken away in update 5.

while i agree /slashing dr is a down side for monks .... its not the end of the world by far ... I wouldnt use kamas even for bypassing DR ... cept in shroud where I used metaline pure good kamas ..they arent so bad before you get tod ring ... especially since its free,

vorpals are vorpals dont matter kama or longsword cause its all about hitting 20 as often as possible.

and if shintao III gets transmuting fists which i think is the most intelligent move for the DR of tier III it will make end game much easier for light monks ..

enough so that longswords will sound silly ... of course it doesn't happen until lvl 18 again .... but if DEV's listen to the complaints silver bypass might get added to shintao II ... of course it would require some response from dev team.

[Drfirewater79]

Nah, I was not gonna make min2 Longswords. I was just pointing out subtly that there are 600 threads complaining about lack of Greensteel Handwraps. And 400 Threads about how hard Devout's are to get.

My idea for a MNK was to go Ninja-Spy and use Metalline/PG or Silver/Holy Shortswords until I had ToD Rings.

I 100% agree...ToD Rings>Swords.

Though maybe someone has a glut of nice shortswords and/or longswords laying around it'd be neat to try out.

Though TBH I am fascinated by the MNK class, but I generally just play casters.

its still all about the cost ... longswords are useless for a monk at any level ... while i agree that devotes are hard to get ... they require a good static group willing to waste a couple hours a week to help 1 person out ... but isnt that what guilds are for?

I think metaline pure good wraps should be able to be found in regular chests as a regular pull .... or at least make the devote wraps bound to account rather then bound to character and make them an end reward possibility or even static cause really only one class in the entire game uses them and they need the love ... especially since Shadow crypt cannot be run over and over without using hold the door method and having an alt open the mission to begin with.

and really where is DR a major factor for monks?

just in Shroud and TOD ...

in shroud a dark monk rocks ... its like having lightning strike go off every 15 seconds ... it makes up for lost DR cept maybe on elite where you wont generate ki cause dr is so high that your physical = 0 dps unless your a str build.

and as a light monk really your big bonus is helping with the healing ...

so if you want to do metaline pure goods for the sake of bypassing DR ... understandable but if your gonna take feats or a pre just for the sake of bypassing DR with weapons .... that is a little much ...

the major advantage of ninja spy is not short swords ... its the 4d6 sneak damage ... which doesn't get blocked by dr and by far makes up the dps lost from it ...

[Memnir]

Well, the PnP Whirling Steel feat has Weapon Focus: Longsword as a pre-req, so I think that the feat requiring WF: Slashing is fair and not needing a change. I'm in favor of keeping feats in general closer to their PnP counterparts then not.

Giving Long Swords to Shinto gratis is also unneeded, imho. The only thing Shinto really needs, again in my opinion, in order to be a PrE maybe worth taking would be a restructuring of when they can bypass DR/Silver.


So, I guess I'm /not signed on this...

[Baahb3]

Well, the PnP Whirling Steel feat has Weapon Focus: Longsword as a pre-req, so I think that the feat requiring WF: Slashing is fair and not needing a change. I'm in favor of keeping feats in general closer to their PnP counterparts then not.

Giving Long Swords to Shinto gratis is also unneeded, imho. The only thing Shinto really needs, again in my opinion, in order to be a PrE maybe worth taking would be a restructuring of when they can bypass DR/Silver.


So, I guess I'm /not signed on this...

I too am torn about when DR/Silver is gained. It makes sense game wise to get Cold Iron at 12 because you fight more Renders, Reavers, Flensers not to mention the Demon Queen around lvl 12 then you do Pit Fiends and Horned Devils.

It is not too bad to have to wait 2 or so levels to get DR/Silver. Most characters don't start running Shroud now until that lvl 16 range which is were you really see that Silver/Good DR for the first time.

I guess it seems ok to me.

[Drfirewater79]

I too am torn about when DR/Silver is gained. It makes sense game wise to get Cold Iron at 12 because you fight more Renders, Reavers, Flensers not to mention the Demon Queen around lvl 12 then you do Pit Fiends and Horned Devils.

It is not too bad to have to wait 2 or so levels to get DR/Silver. Most characters don't start running Shroud now until that lvl 16 range which is were you really see that Silver/Good DR for the first time.

I guess it seems ok to me.

you start vale at 14 ... not at 18 this is why ...

cold iron makes more sense at lvl 6 because that is when you are in thernal, co6, and invasion ... these are the places you find the most reavers per level

bysheck as a side bonus would be ok but there are no missions where mindflayers require you use a dr bypass to kill .... there are no raid mindflayers ... and even if there where they wouldnt be a lvl 6 raid ... cant even think of a mission that a lvl 6 character would run that has mindflayers in it ...

lvl 10 for shrieking and lvl 14 pop (even though many do them at lvl 8 and lvl 10 currently)

still makes more sense to have sliver/crystal (for rusties) at tier II and cold iron/bysheck at tier I

that sets up transmuting or silver for tier III and makes the whole set useful at level for bypassing common DR's at lvl ...

[Missing_Minds]

bysheck as a side bonus would be ok but there are no missions where mindflayers require you use a dr bypass to kill .... there are no raid mindflayers ... and even if there where they wouldnt be a lvl 6 raid ... cant even think of a mission that a lvl 6 character would run that has mindflayers in it ...

Go play in house J. 2-4 quests with mindflayers there. And normally you don't need the dr beating weapons because you have an arcane that just roasts them any how.

Sides, aren't normally Tier I not so uber stuff, but a taste of what is to come?

[Drfirewater79]

Go play in house J. 2-4 quests with mindflayers there. And normally you don't need the dr beating weapons because you have an arcane that just roasts them any how.

Sides, aren't normally Tier I not so uber stuff, but a taste of what is to come?

really 2-4 quests with mindflayers ???

truth be told dont run much house J favor outside of deleras cause missions are pretty useless even as a TR i skipped past all of House J cept xorian and graveyard quests ...

but again like you said ... even without the firewall ... vorpal is common anti flayer weapon ... but weakening is even better ...

not enough flayers in the game to warrent needing the dr bypass .. i mean really how many people still go gagga over bysehk weapons?

no one i know .. .mostly vendor trash or AH sells to noobs who dont know better ...


*edit - and still twice as many renders and reavers in that lvl area then mindflayers in the entire game .... just saying

[honkuimushi]

I was kind of hoping to see some synergy with Paladins given the flavor of the Shintao PrE. The lack of any synergy at all was a disappointment(as were most of the other abilities.)

The suggestion that I've been thinking about was making Whirling Steel Strike an alternative to Stunning Fist. Most pure Monks would take Stunning Fist and concentrate on the DR bypasses. But multiclassed Monks could use long swords and use some of the other abilities-- perhaps something that meshed with their Paladin abilities. I would mostly expect to see this with Paladins and Favored Souls taking 6-8 levels of Monk.

Right now, the Paladin 14/ Monk 6 build looks interesting, but it really doesn't gain much from the Monk PrEs. And while niether really adds all that much, the Dark path is the only one that actually adds anything useful. That's just wrong.

And with the Tempest nerf, 6-8 levels of Monk may be a decent substitute on a melee FvS.

[Zyklon]

Well, the PnP Whirling Steel feat has Weapon Focus: Longsword as a pre-req, so I think that the feat requiring WF: Slashing is fair and not needing a change. I'm in favor of keeping feats in general closer to their PnP counterparts then not.

Since Whirling Steel also requires proficiency in longswords as well, it seems very unlikely that pure monks will burn the feats for it.


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[Drfirewater79]

Since Whirling Steel also requires proficiency in longswords as well, it seems very unlikely that pure monks will burn the feats for it.


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that is what i have been saying too ... not likely any MONK (not monk splash but actual monk) will use longswords ever.