Mechanics - Missles don't cut it

[altagar]

While I'm waiting to see how final comes out, I've concluded it is unlikely that I will go mechanic on my rogue.

I admit I'm having fun with traps, but you don't have to be a mechanic to have fun with traps. Sure the DC's won't be as high as if I was a mechanic, and sure I won't get as many components when disarming traps, but I will still be able to play with traps.

The issue is the crossbow mods. There just isn't enough there to make it worthwhile. Let's review the options for ranged builds.
A - Tempest Rangers
B - Arcane Archers
C – Missle Spec Fighter (Theoretical)
D - Rogue non-Mechanics
E - Rogue Mechanics

I don’t know anyone who plays a deepwood sniper, and I’ve never contemplated building one so I haven't included them.

A - Tempest Rangers
Free Feat: Rapid Shot (about a 10% fire rate Increase), Many Shot (a 50% average fire rate increase at high levels (4 arrow rate for 20 seconds+ 1 for 100 seconds = 180 arrows in 120 seconds), Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot (Hit more than one target)
Other notable: Bow Strength allows stackable buffs – Rage and Ram’s might.
Capability: High - 0 of 7 feats available.

B – Arcane Archers
Free Feat: Rapid Shot (about a 10% fire rate Increase), Many Shot (a 50% fire rate increase), Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot (Hit more than one target)
Purchase Feats: Point Blank Shot, and an Arcane feat to remain pure Ranger.
Capability: Very High – 2 of 7 feats available.

C – Missle Spec Fighter (Theoretical -Does anyone have something similar to comment?)
Free Feats: None
Purchased Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid shot, Many shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Weapon Focus Missle, Weapon Specialization Missle, Greater Weapon Focus Missle, Greater Weapon Specialization Missle, Bow Strength.
Capability: Very High. 10 of 18 feats available.
Trades Imbued Arrows for +4 to hit, +8 damage, and situation additional damage from kensai power surge.

D - Rogue non-Mechanics
Free Feats: None
Purchased Feats Assumed: Point Blank Shot, Rapid shot, Rapid Reload, A repeater.
Capability: Poor. 4 of 7 feats consumed.
Fire Rate still seems worse than average rate of all prior groups with Manyshot affect applied over cooldown period.
Damage substantially reduced due to no Bow strength parallel, and loss of Improved precise shot.

E - Rogue Mechanics
Free Feats: None
Purchased Feats Assumed: Point Blank Shot, Rapid shot, Rapid Reload, (maybe precise shot and improved precise shot).
Capability: Fair. 3 (or 5) of 7 feats consumed.
Fire Rate still seems worse than average rate of all prior groups with Manyshot affect applied over cooldown period.
Damage reductions alleviated with Intel bonus, but Intel has no stackable buffs. Feat cost improved precise shot seems very high for feats 4 and 5. Since you still will probably want Improved critical leaving only 1 non-missle focused feat.

If I do decide to go mechanic because of the final trap implementation, the intelligence bonus and free repeater feats just aren’t enough to focus on crossbows. Better to spend your feats on other things, and throw grenades.

[TreknaQudane]

Keep in mind you still get sneak attacks from ranged combat if close enough and crossbows have a much larger critical threat range (at expense of critical multiplier)

[altagar]

You are correct that I did not include the sneak attack. The sneak attack applies only to the first bolt, even with a repeater. I have never managed consecutive sneak attacks firing my repeating heavy crossbow on my rogue. That includes kill shots, because you lose hidden status when you fire and have to be close to receive sneak attack damage.

Yes, crossbows have a 19-20 crit range, but their crits also do less (x2). I wish I had a more precise analysis on the fire rate and damage calcs and would welcome a more thorough analysis.

[TreknaQudane]

You are correct that I did not include the sneak attack. The sneak attack applies only to the first bolt, even with a repeater. I have never managed consecutive sneak attacks firing my repeating heavy crossbow on my rogue. That includes kill shots, because you lose hidden status when you fire and have to be close to receive sneak attack damage.

Yes, crossbows have a 19-20 crit range, but their crits also do less (x2). I wish I had a more precise analysis on the fire rate and damage calcs and would welcome a more thorough analysis.

You do not only get sneak attacks on the first shot nor do you have to be hidden to get Sneak Attack damage.

You get them on every shot so long as you don't have aggro, same for any other type of rogue combat.

The purpose of Mechanic isn't to make a crossbow wielding rogue, but to make a kick ass trap rogue that isn't totally useless.

[Razcar]

You are correct that I did not include the sneak attack. The sneak attack applies only to the first bolt, even with a repeater. I have never managed consecutive sneak attacks firing my repeating heavy crossbow on my rogue. That includes kill shots, because you lose hidden status when you fire and have to be close to receive sneak attack damage.

Craft a Radiance II x-bow

[Thrudh]

You are correct that I did not include the sneak attack. The sneak attack applies only to the first bolt, even with a repeater. I have never managed consecutive sneak attacks firing my repeating heavy crossbow on my rogue. That includes kill shots, because you lose hidden status when you fire and have to be close to receive sneak attack damage.

Yes, crossbows have a 19-20 crit range, but their crits also do less (x2). I wish I had a more precise analysis on the fire rate and damage calcs and would welcome a more thorough analysis.

Probably what the OP is seeing is sneaking up on a new mob, hitting it with sneak attack, immediately getting aggro, and therefore #2 and #3 shot do not have sneak attack damage

OP, you don't have to be hidden to get sneak attack... you just have to be fairly close and not have aggro... The trick to playing a rogue in a group is to let the fighters/barbarians/whatever attack a monster, get aggro, and then you attack the same monster, getting sneak attack on every hit because the monster is still aggroed on the fighter.

That monster will drop VERY fast... At least you hope so, because after a few sneak attacks, you'll be out-damaging the fighter, at which point the monster may turn his attention to you... (playing a rogue takes some skill... Right when a monster gets mad at you is the moment when you lose a large part of your DPS... Playing a rogue is all about aggro management)

[altagar]

Yes, I have dreamed of crafting one of those for a long time. But nothing prevents an assassin from doing the same thing and retaining all their bonuses that are not specific to melee attacks. The only differences so far are the int bonus on damage, and the free repeater feats. It isn't enough.

[altagar]

Probably what the OP is seeing is sneaking up on a new mob, hitting it with sneak attack, immediately getting aggro, and therefore #2 and #3 shot do not have sneak attack damage

OP, you don't have to be hidden to get sneak attack... you just have to be fairly close and not have aggro... The trick to playing a rogue in a group is to let the fighters/barbarians/whatever attack a monster, get aggro, and then you attack the same monster, getting sneak attack on every hit...

That monster will drop VERY fast...

Yes, I was focused on soloing. But the comparison of Mechanic versus Assassin is the issue. I can't see swapping my heavy repeater using rogue even with the changes.

[Failedlegend]

Yes, I was focused on soloing. But the comparison of Mechanic versus Assassin is the issue. I can't see swapping my heavy repeater using rogue even with the changes.

Rogues aren't really a great solo class as their main advantage requires another person but I guess if you REALLY wanted to you could use a hireling and a defender (obtained through APs) to take aggro.

Craft a Radiance II x-bow

or an Earthgrab one (lotsa fun with Imp Precise shot)

Anyways here's what I came up with if it helps get you started at least.

you just have to be fairly close and not have aggro

The distance is quite short but its far enough that your mostly out of harms way (except by other ranged attacks,etc.) mind you I think SA should work from any distance as long as your within your weapons normal range...actually you'd think it would be easier to SA from a ranged location and even cause less aggro

Playing a rogue is all about aggro management

Diplo and subtle backstabbing FTW


Renja Karudo True Neutral Halfling Pure Rogue "Hellfire"

Stats:

Str: 10
Dex: 18+6 (Item) +3(Rogue Dex) +2(Halfling Dex) +1(Lvls) +2(Tome) = 32
Con: 14+6 (Item) = 20
Int: 16+6 (Item) +2(Tome) +2(Capstone) +4 (Lvls) = 30
Wis: 8
Cha: 10+6 (Item) = 16

Skills:

Take at least Balance,OL,Search,Spot,UMD than take whatever suits your style


Level Order & Feats:

1-Rogue- Point Blank Shot
2-Rogue-
3-Rogue- Heavy Repeater Prof (Swap for Toughness at 6)
4-Rogue- Trapmaking(Auto), +Int
5-Rogue-
6-Rogue- Precise Shot, Mechanic 1
7-Rogue- 
8-Rogue- +Int
9-Rogue- Rapid Reload
10-Rogue-  Improved Evasion
11-Rogue-  
12-Rogue- +Dex, Rapid Shot
13-Rogue-  Slippery Mind
14-Rogue-  
15-Rogue- Improved Precise Shot
16-Rogue-  +Int, Skill Mastery
17-Rogue-  
18-Rogue- IC: Ranged
19-Rogue-  Skill Mastery
20-Rogue- +Int


Enhancements (At 20)

Rogue Skill Boost 4
Rogue Deadly Shadow
Rogue Fire Resist 1
Halfling Dex 2
Halfling Cunning 4
Halfling Guile 3
Halfling Will 2
Halfling Toughness 2
Rouge Mechanic 2
Rogue SA Training 3
Rogue DD 3
Rogue OL 3
Rogue Dex 3
Rogue Trap Sense 2

[TreknaQudane]

Yes, I was focused on soloing. But the comparison of Mechanic versus Assassin is the issue. I can't see swapping my heavy repeater using rogue even with the changes.

Your crossbow using Assassin will do less damage than a Mechanic. Despite the larger Sneak Attack damage on an assassin, you're given poisons that aren't useful and an assassinate that can't be used ranged. A mechanic will do more damage on EVERY HIT before critical hits are multiplied out, as well as have better DCs for crafted Traps, and an easier time resupplying for crafting 'em.

[altagar]

Your crossbow using Assassin will do less damage than a Mechanic. Despite the larger Sneak Attack damage on an assassin, you're given poisons that aren't useful and an assassinate that can't be used ranged. A mechanic will do more damage on EVERY HIT before critical hits are multiplied out, as well as have better DCs for crafted Traps, and an easier time resupplying for crafting 'em.

Yes, when using missle weapons. A full ranged spec'd Mechanic will be near useless with melee weapons as they had no feats left for 2 weapon fighting, improved 2 weapon fighting, improved crit for non-missles, etc.

Unfortunately, at the moment my baseline on my rogue is soloing because she's been grinding for trap components in a bunch of quests. You can grind either by soloing or pugging, but soloing will have a speed advantage, namely completion is optional. Unless trap components are purchasable, the time commitment to any trap maker (Mechanic or otherwise) will be significant.

The good news for the developers is that the traps have me interested enough in taking this toon out of retirement. It remains to be seen whether she will become a Mechanic again, or continue to use repeaters.

[Failedlegend]

Yes, when using missle weapons. A full ranged spec'd Mechanic will be near useless with melee weapons as they had no feats left for 2 weapon fighting, improved 2 weapon fighting, improved crit for non-missles, etc.

I fail to see why this matters your primary weapon is a repeater anyways why would you need the TWF line, IC or anything melee related.

[TreknaQudane]

I fail to see why this matters your primary weapon is a repeater anyways why would you need the TWF line, IC or anything melee related.

You wouldn't

Even pulling out a finesse weapon, you're still better damage with the repeater getting your, hopefully, massive bonus Int to damage.

[Failedlegend]

You wouldn't

Even pulling out a finesse weapon, you're still better damage with the repeater getting your, hopefully, massive bonus Int to damage.

I wasn't looking for an answer from you lol...I agree with you already I was wondering why Altagar thinks he needs melee feats and why he thinks a Rogue Mechanic using repeaters would be inferior.

Disclaimer Just in case: That wasn't meant to sound mean,angry etc.

[TreknaQudane]

I wasn't looking for an answer from you lol...I agree with you already I was wondering why Altagar thinks he needs melee feats and why he thinks a Rogue Mechanic using repeaters would be inferior.

Disclaimer Just in case: That wasn't meant to sound mean,angry etc.

I was just agreeing

[altagar]

Anyways here's what I came up with if it helps get you started at least...

Failedlegend, appreciate you taking the time to take a first cut. A few comments:

1) Halfling and repeater is an interesting combination already. (My until recently retired rogue is a halfling.) The Strength 10 is a concern due to repeater weight. Until you have greensteel, you will probably be carrying at least 4. The low strength halfliing reduced carrying and crossbow/bolt weight can get you in trouble easily.


Strength 10 on halfling is a carrying capacity of 371.3. Medium Encumberance occurs at only 123.8.

Layer on that grenades currently weight .5 pound each, you will need to watch out for strength damage and avoid looting anything to heavy.

2) Strength vs Int mods.

I struggle with the level ups in Dex vs Int.

Just taking the last 2, they get you 1 point damage using crossbows, one point to disable device, one search point, and no skill points since you are hitting even at level 20.

If in dex, you get one point to attack. Given BAB of 15, Dex of 32 (+11), and Greensteel (+5). you are going to miss a lot in endgame even with your halfling cunning 4.

Its seems to be a tough call to me.

3) No Weapon Finesse. You will not be able to hit anything with melee weapons, ever...

[Failedlegend]

I was just agreeing

Oh ok..someone agreeing with me...tis a new concept to me...these forums are usually unforgiving and opinions are set in stone with anyone trying to change the stone even a tiny bit getting skinned alive...including Turbine lol

[TreknaQudane]

3) No Weapon Finesse. You will not be able to hit anything with melee weapons, ever...

Get a Breeze

[Failedlegend]

The Strength 10 is a concern due to repeater weight. Until you have greensteel, you will probably be carrying at least 4. The low strength Halfliing reduced carrying and crossbow/bolt weight can get you in trouble easily.

If it weren't for carrying capacity Str would have been left at 6...I realize capacity will be an issue but I already had to force myself to bump it to 10 and a +6 item is easy to obtain beside my 8 Str WF Wiz has no problems carrying around 4 full bags of random loot such as plate armor, greatswords ,etc. and the multitude of repeaters I've been saving (been trying to make a repeater build for a while U5 just made it alot easier)

2) Dex vs Int mods.

I struggle with the level ups in Dex vs Int.

Just taking the last 2, they get you 1 point damage using crossbows, one point to disable device, one search point, and no skill points since you are hitting even at level 20.

If in dex, you get one point to attack. Given BAB of 15, Dex of 32 (+11), and Greensteel (+5). you are going to miss a lot in endgame even with your halfling cunning 4.

That I will admit is quite undecided and I'm hoping one of the resident vet mathmeticians can help me out with the target to-hit for at least non-raid elite

Although on a UMD toon I'll probably have a healthy supply of Divine power clickies,wands and/or scrolls so that will help a bit.

3) No Weapon Finesse. You will not be able to hit anything with melee weapons, ever...

Once again anything related to melee is redundant besides the only semi-optional feat is toughness which I'd rather waste on force of personality than anything melee related but toughness is like 14 Con it goes on every toon I make...also if I REALLY want to carry some melee weapons I'll just grab a few that include weapon finesse like Axe of the Unseen Blow or use Dex as its primary mod like Breeze...oh it seems Trekna beat me to it.

[Oolung]

If it weren't for carrying capacity Str would have been left at 6...I realize capacity will be an issue but I already had to force myself to bump it to 10 and a +6 item is easy to obtain beside my 8 Str WF Wiz has no problems carrying around 4 full bags of random loot such as plate armor, greatswords ,etc. and the multitude of repeaters I've been saving (been trying to make a repeater build for a while U5 just made it alot easier)



That I will admit is quite undecided and I'm hoping one of the resident vet mathmeticians can help me out with the target to-hit for at least non-raid elite

Although on a UMD toon I'll probably have a healthy supply of Divine power clickies,wands and/or scrolls so that will help a bit.



Once again anything related to melee is redundant besides the only semi-optional feat is toughness which I'd rather waste on force of personality than anything melee related but toughness is like 14 Con it goes on every toon I make...also if I REALLY want to carry some melee weapons I'll just grab a few that include weapon finesse like Axe of the Unseen Blow or use Dex as its primary mod like Breeze...oh it seems Trekna beat me to it.

base attack of 15 w/ +5 repeater and 32 (+11) dex is a base attack of +31, add halfling cunning 4 for +35, and assuming range spec, add +1 point blank shot and +1 WF now with g hero and tharnes, that is an attack bonus of +46 with minimal buffs. add in other things, to get it higher, things such as spectral gloves or LoTD or even just a bard song will put it easily over 50, which is the minimum for epic and will do well in all of content, or