Evasive Warchanter 18 bard/2rog

[karl_k0ch]

The aim of this 28pt build is to have

• a bard
• who can handle traps
• who can buff himself and the party via spells and songs
• who can heal
• who can melee if the other roles aren't needed,

with priorities in that particular order. CC and damage spells are not on this list, although I'll try to use Fascinate.

I decided to go 18 bard for two reasons: First, I don't want to delay my spell and song advancement too much by taking (more) early levels of Rogue or Fighter. Second, I want this build to be able to get Warchanter III, when it's there, at some time.

I am aware that not having a Fighter Splash forces me to use Master's Touch in order to wield a nice Falchion properly. Update: With Update 7, I'm going to get a proficiency in Falchions. Yay.

Without further ado, here's an updated version of my build:

feats:
1 Insightful Reflexes, Weapon Focus
3 Extend
6 PA
9 Toughness
12 Empower Healing*
15 Improved Crit: Slashing
18 Quicken.

*Currently Switched for Maximize for more healing Oomph.

I've rearranged the spell selection as well in order to get buffs earlier than healing spells (some, at least)
2 CLW
3 Master's Touch
4 Focusing Chant
5 Heroism, CMW
6 Detect Secret Doors, Blur
8 CSW, Haste, Displacement
10 Fox
12 Good Hope (drop Hero), FoM, CCW (drop CLW)
13 Neutralize Poison
15 Break Enchantment, Greater Hero, MCLW
16 Shadow Walk
18 Remove Fear, Mass Suggestion, MCMW, Otto's Irresistable Dance
19 Invisibility, Mass Fox's
20 Remove Curse

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
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Twiddler Drehstrom
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard) 
Hit Points: 202
Spell Points: 576 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 16
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    22
Bluff                 6                     7
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             6                     7
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle                6                    26
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            6                     7
Jump                  6                    10
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock             3                     3
Perform               n/a                  26
Repair                2                     2
Search                6                    26
Spot                  3                    15
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                0                     0
Use Magic Device      6                    26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+5)
Skill: Search (+1)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (1): Master's Touch


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Focusing Chant


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Heroism


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Spell (2): Rage


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (2): Blur
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+7)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (3): Good Hope


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Spell (4): Dimension Door


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (4): Neutralize Poison
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Spell (5): Greater Heroism


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Shadow Walk


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (6): Heroes Feast


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Glitterdust
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Remove Curse

------
That's the outdated build, just for reference.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard) 
Hit Points: 222
Spell Points: 569 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 13
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    22
Bluff                 2                     2
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             2                     2
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle                6                    25
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate            2                     2
Jump                  3                     6
Listen                3                     3
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             3                     3
Perform               n/a                  25
Repair                2                     2
Search                6                    26
Spot                  3                    15
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                3                     3
Use Magic Device      6                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Spell (1): Master's Touch


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Focusing Chant


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Heroism


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (2): Blur


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I & Prereqs



Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Fox's Cunning
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Good Hope


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Neutralize Poison


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (4): Break Enchantment
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Shadow Walk


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (6): Mass Fox's Cunning


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Remove Curse

Capped Skills are Balance, Haggle, Perform, UMD, DD, Search. At level 20, Spot is at 16 ranks.

Are there any comments or remarks regarding this guy?

Edit: Having played this build for a bit, I must admit that I find his SP pool lacking, his personal DPS mediocre, and most imprortantly, I don't see an essential benefit of actually going 18/2 over 16/2/2. I don't recommend this build, as of Update 12.

[Aztek]

I have a 16 bard/2 warchanter and was toying with the idea of making him 16 bard/2 fighter/2 rogue for evasion but i'd want to lesser restore +1 or +2 for the bonus points... I've seen the build work. But my guy is primarily to fight. Dont' get me wrong, I can buff the party, haste, but I'm not really built to heal significantly or UMD or CC at a very high level.

It seems with your priorities in the order you list (fighting being last only if the party needs it) & mentioning you want to be an Evasive bard seems at odds with trying to pump your STR so high and keeping your DEX so low.

I'm thinking you should maybe instead put STR at a lower level and move DEX up higher to min. 12, maybe 14 or so (I can't do the numbers at work). And maybe put a few more into CHA also. And possibly drop INT to 12 to start, with hopes of getting a +2 tome. Don't drop to 10 because you need the skill points since disable and search are not innate to bards....

keep in mind:
Rogue 2 lets you take Rogue DEX 1 enhancement to boost your DEX by 1
Human lets you take Human/Greater human adaptability to boost two different stats by 1, so you could possibly do uneven starting stats like INT 13 or INT 12 + Human adaptability + a +1 tome to get to 14 by level 7.

Breakdown of thoughts on these....
1. Skill points - Humans get 1 extra skill point per level, so you're in good shape there. to use bard songs, you're going to need naturally high Perform skills. So at minimum you need to maintain: Search, Disable, Perform. Probably also Concentrate for spells, possibly UMD & balance. for the non-bard-specific that means for non-rogue levels disable will cost you 2 skill points to up your level by 1. Maybe a 12 INT is not high enough but it might be - you'd need to try it on the character planner to see if that works. or 13 INT and get a +1 tome which is easier to find than a +2 unless you buy in the store or have lots of higher level toons.
2. Open lock - DEX based, i believe. I've seen lots of rogue splash characters unable to open shrines in Tear of Dhakaan on normal. That's bad. if you're planning on doing traps but no locks, low DEX and no skill points into Open lock is ok.
3. Evasion - Reflex saves are DEX based. an 8 DEX is going to kill you on reflex saves. You're not getting a CHA bonus to saves like a paladin or a rogue boost to trap saves with only 2 levels of rogue (well not much)
4. Traps - with INT 12 (14 with +2 tome and +6 item) you'll probably be pretty good. Bard can self cast Greater Heroism, Human can take 5 levels of Human Versatility, Bard can cast focusing chant to up skills also. If you max out disable and search skills, you should be fine I *think* with either starting stat. 13 lets you get combat experise to boost AC but with 8 DEX, your AC won't be worth talking about.
5. Buffs - 14 CHA should be ok if you get +6 item. You won't have tons of spell points so you will be good for extended buffs & songs.
6. Heals - this is where higher CHA or spell point enhancements will help because at 14 CHA even with a +6 item I dont' think you have tons of spell points. I think my warchanter has maybe 660 spell points at 18 or something ridiculous b/c i put nothing into improving that - it does the job for buffs but i run out of healing sp real quick once i've buffed the party with GH, blur/displacement, haste, etc.

Also you only have so many Enhancements to use. I don't think you have enough to be great at traps, songs, spell point increases, healing enhancements AND fighting boosts.

Human Versatility IV is going to cost probably 1 + 2 + 3 + 4? or something like that - that's 10 out of 80 right there? (it is 80? 4 * 20 levels? or only 76....)

you'll also want to max out your attack/damage bard song enhancements as a warchanter and put some into lingering/possibly extra songs. of course Warchanter & pre-reqs will also cost a decent # of enhancement points.
That doesn't leave a ton for things like Racial Toughness (take the Toughness feat for sure! so you can use these and be less squishy), etc.

Hope that helps or gives you an idea to play with. Maybe instead a shield-and-rapier weapon finesse DEX build for fighting. I mean you are True Neutral so you can get Stability bonus to your saves and AC (if you get the sheild of light/dark from Inspired Quarter you can get +6 to saves/AC if you are True Neutral and the sheild is mitrhal i believe so not much penalty to spell casting....) you might as well try to improve your AC, although I'm not sure you can get it up past 50, but might be worth a shot.

[karl_k0ch]

Ah, the name was a bit misleading. I had to come up with a catchy name for a 18/2 trapchanter build and this was the first thing which came into my mind.
This build is not built around evasion, sure, it helps when disabling traps a tough spots. I am aware of the fact that 8 dex will not make a great reflex save. I will have to thing about this.
14 starting Str would be also fine for all the feats, I would only lose +1 Dam, +1 Attack and trade it for +2 Reflex save. Wearing light armor would also make more sense, then.

So you are suggesting something like 14/12/14/14/8/14, right?

I don't want to do OL with this guy. The first 4 points are just a point sink for the beginning.

Enhancement wise, I think there should be enough room for Race Toughness, if I don't take all the Tier III and IV Enhancements, but stick to I and II for some.

[Aztek]

well if you're not that concerned about reflex save and open lock, I would hate to see you spread your stats out too thin (i did this with my first paladin). However, I think there is a way around the reflex part.... somewhat.

I think you should 'toggle' STR or DEX. If you seem to be set on STR (and you do appear to be set on STR), then put that higher, keep dex at 8 and pump CON as high as possible. I *think* could also make INT a little higher and take the feat (insightful reflexes?) that lets you use your INT bonus toward reflex saves instead of DEX.

so (again, don't have access to the numbers and don't have them in my head enough to know exactly how this works out but top priorities for numbers maybe:

1st priorities: CON, STR - I would definitely go as high on CON as you can without sacrificing the rest to make up for AC/reflex, which still will not be super high with INT feat because you won't be putting ability levels or enhancements into it. You could for example start with a 15 or 17, boost it to an even # with Human/Greater Human adaptability, then add a +2 CON tome at some point. With a +6 item at level 13 or 15, you'll then be around 24-26 CON, which isn't bad.

2nd priorities: INT, CHA - can boost CHA with enhancements and possibly Human/Greater Human Adaptibility.

Dump stats: DEX, WIS

this way you can wear mith full plate/shields with a low spell fail rate since you don't have to worry about max DEX bonus and focus on CON to keep up hit points. Try to get CHA a little higher & take Extend so you can cast extended Displacement on yourself and Greater Heroism to boost your saves/chances of you getting smacked around AS much

sounds like a fun build. I am a nerd for putting rogue levels in characters just for traps. I did it with a monk until i changed that to ranger to give my dwarf a little extra (speed burst, heal wands, etc.)

[moorewr]

If you do 2 rogue, go for high enough reflex DC for evasion to work. If you don't want to maintain a >30 reflex then drop the rogue levels and consider 2 fighter or even 2-4 levels of barbarian. Until and unless we see Warchanter III to me the sweet spot is 16 bard.

[Aztek]

He is doing rogue for traps, not for evasion primarily, so dropping the rogue would be silly.

But I agree - you might consider 16 bard/2 rogue/2 fighter so you can do both and increase combat feats/hit points and get a STR +1 enhancement boost for fighter, +1 to confirm crits, etc.

Then if they ever do roll out Warchanter III, you can just get a lesser/greater reincarnation +3 class and move it back to 18/2.

[moorewr]

He is doing rogue for traps, not for evasion primarily, so dropping the rogue would be silly.

But I agree - you might consider 16 bard/2 rogue/2 fighter so you can do both and increase combat feats/hit points and get a STR +1 enhancement boost for fighter, +1 to confirm crits, etc.

Then if they ever do roll out Warchanter III, you can just get a lesser/greater reincarnation +3 class and move it back to 18/2.

Splashing 2 rogue for any purpose other than evasion, in my opinion, weakens the build too much.

[karl_k0ch]

I didn't know that a difference of let's say +6 in dex marks the line between a horrible reflex save and a good one.

With which base Dex (without increasing it at level ups) will be my Reflex save good enough? Luckily, Bard and Rog have Ref as a high progression save so that a 18/2 split has a higher Reflex save than a pure bard or Rog. (The latter one is not entirely true since Rogs get additional bonuses via Enhancements.)

Taking another feat hurts a bit, but I see two alternatives (keeping the 18/2 split) to get out of the reflex dilemma:

1)16/8/14/14/8/14 or 14/8/16/14/8/14 and Insightful Reflexes. One Metamagic Feat or THF have to go.
2)14/12/14/14/8/14 aka Mr. Spread-too-thin

What do you think? Is any of these two viable?

There is one thing which was said in an earlier thread in the bard forum: By taking early splashes, you delay your primary abilities. I don't want to do this too much. This is why I'd like to stay as pure as possible. I'd rather not make a build which I have to alter later.

1 level of rogue is needed for unlocking the trap skill. The near alternatives to 18/2 would be then 19/1 and 18/1/1, taking fighter or barb as secondary class at some time. Even if the name wouldn't be so fitting anymore, would the build fulfill the mentioned roles better if I stepped away from 2 rog? At first glance, 1 barb seems intriguing. Short rages, martial weapons, toughness and speed sound like a nice icing. Especially if the change to Master's Touch will be as annoying as the doomsayers predict.

Of course, with 32 build points, one could go perfectly TWFing with bard 16/fig 2/ rog 2, starting with 14/15/14/14/8/14, putting all points in Str, having a good Reflex save thanks to the high starting Dex and using this stat in order to increase dps even further. If it turns out that the whole TWF chain isn't worth taking, one could replace the fighter levels with barb levels. But unfortunately, I don't have 32pt builds yet.

[Aztek]

If you want trapsmithing and more attack power (which was 4th on your original list) and not worrying about evasion, take 1 level rogue, 1 level something like fighter and the rest bard. Max out CON or as close as you can - you'll need every hit point you can get. I don't know anything about building a bard. Fighter 1 will give you access to martial weapons, armors, etc. that pure bard or bard/rogue may not. and a free combat feat. I don't see a huge advantage to 19 bard vs 18 bard in your build. You'll get 1 more song, slightly longer spells and a few more spell points, but not enough to matter. Slightly better songs maybe. The 1 splash of something else like fighter would be more useful here.

I think what the last comment (probably assumed you know more than you do or how to read cryptic comments) may have meant was that plenty of people take 1 level rogue for traps. The main reason people would take a 2nd level of rogue is for evasion. So if you go the 18/2 route, take Insightful reflexes, dump DEX, pump CON. Take extend. You'll need it for buffs, haste, etc. This build won't really need much else for metamagic - you don't have enough CHA for a ton of healing spell points so no reason to empower healing. no CC, so no reason for spell penetration, etc. focus on fighting and/or trapsmithing type skills like skill boost: disable or UMD IF you think you need it.

Good luck and no matter what, have fun playing your build, no matter what you decide.

[karl_k0ch]

Thanks for all the input from all of you and Rav'n as well.

I've revisited my original build a bit, taking the insightful reflexes route. I've rearranged the Feats to

1 Insightful Reflexes, Weapon Focus
3 Extend
6 PA
9 Toughness
12 Empower Healing
15 Improved Crit: Slashing
18 Quicken.

I've rearranged the spell selection as well in order to get buffs earlier than healing spells (some, at least)
2 CLW
3 Master's Touch
4 Focusing Chant
5 Heroism, CMW
6 Detect Secret Doors, Blur
8 CSW, Haste, Displacement
10 Fox
12 Good Hope (drop Hero), FoM, CCW (drop CLW)
13 Neutralize Poison
15 Break Enchantment, Greater Hero, MCLW
16 Shadow Walk
18 Remove Fear, Mass Suggestion, MCMW, Otto's Irresistable Dance
19 Invisibility, Mass Fox's
20 Remove Curse

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Bard) 
Hit Points: 222
Spell Points: 569 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 13
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             14                    14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    22
Bluff                 2                     2
Concentration         2                     2
Diplomacy             2                     2
Disable Device        6                    26
Haggle                6                    25
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate            2                     2
Jump                  3                     6
Listen                3                     3
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             3                     3
Perform               n/a                  25
Repair                2                     2
Search                6                    26
Spot                  3                    15
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                3                     3
Use Magic Device      6                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Listen (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1.5)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (1): Master's Touch


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Focusing Chant


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Heroism
Spell (2): Blur


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Spell (1): Detect Secret Doors
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds


Level 7 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I & Prereqs



Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Fox's Cunning
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Displacement


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: Toughness


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing
Spell (3): Godd Hope
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Neutralize Poison


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (4): Break Enchantment
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (5): Shadow Walk


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Spell (5): Mass Suggestion
Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (6): Mass Fox's Cunning


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Remove Curse

[Syntax42]

He is doing rogue for traps, not for evasion primarily, so dropping the rogue would be silly.

But I agree - you might consider 16 bard/2 rogue/2 fighter so you can do both and increase combat feats/hit points and get a STR +1 enhancement boost for fighter, +1 to confirm crits, etc.

Then if they ever do roll out Warchanter III, you can just get a lesser/greater reincarnation +3 class and move it back to 18/2.

There is almost no benefit for going past 15 Bard unless you go all the way to 20 Bard. The Axesinger build (search the forums for it) is 15 Bard, 3 Rogue, 2 Fighter, and does great DPS for a Bard. It doesn't have the Int to get enough skill points for traps, so I made my Bard a Drow version of Axesinger.

Drow is easy enough to unlock by leveling to 5 or so and getting 400 favor along the way. If I remember correctly, starting stats for my Drow were 14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 12 Cha. You need Int that high to keep Disable, Search, Open Lock, Haggle, Perform, and UMD at or near max while leveling. You could start with 14 Int and put those points in Str if you wanted, as long as you have a +2 Int tome to use at level 7.

[Irinis]

Just a reminder that Action Points spent on stats do not count for prerequisites. So if you even up INT with Human Adaptability you will not get an extra skill point per level from it, only if a tome evens it up.

[sly_1]

There is almost no benefit for going past 15 Bard unless you go all the way to 20 Bard. ...

lvl 16 bard grants access to the best cc spell in the game, otto's irresistible dance. For that reason alone I feel 16/2/2 is *vastly* superior to 15/3/2. That 3rd rogue lvl nets you 2 skill points and 1d6 situational sneak damage, which is nice and all but nothing compared to a nosave cc spell.

Also, while the axesinger build is solid, no reason to follow that build to the "t". You can easily go 2hf or 2wf, and can easily be any race. Any race will have advantages and disadvantages as will 2wf vs 2hf (esp after mod5).

[maddmatt70]

Currently, you could make the same argument regarding bard level 14 to 15 at the end game. Inspire Heroics is all you get at 15 which is not useful on epics right now. It maybe useful in update 5 but we will see.

[karl_k0ch]

Thanks for all the input. I also considered Drow, who can get similar stats for this build, but at the cost of a bonus feat. But then, Human costs a feat as well, due to Insightful Reflexes. Drow 16 Int 14 Dex vs Human 14 Int + Insightful Reflexes has the same number of skill points, effectively the same number of feats, the same Reflex Save, but the human stat spread has better Str and Cha. The main benefit of Drow would be the ability to use a rapier without master's touch.

Here's what I am going to to, once I have Vet status, which is in one or two weeks, regarding my current progression with my main toon:

I'll start this guy as I posted in my last post. If I ever sense a lack of melee ability or am just bored too often, then I put in one or two fighter/barb levels at 18 and/or 19 and take the last level as Rogue to rectify the skills. The same thing I can do with a LR+3 when I'm level 20 eventually.

The idea of taking this possible splash that late is the following:
1. Getting to know how this build actually plays.
2. being able to safely LR+3 back to a 18/2
3. The build doesn't have to rearranged for this splash.

Just a reminder that Action Points spent on stats do not count for prerequisites. So if you even up INT with Human Adaptability you will not get an extra skill point per level from it, only if a tome evens it up.

Insightful Reflexes has 13 Int as Prereq, iirc. In what way is that a concern when starting with an Int of 14?

[karl_k0ch]

In celeration of U5 and the Master's Touch nerf, I hereby reanimate this thread. Didn't start this toon, though.

Now that some people have expressed their dismal with the current version of Master's Touch I am really wondering if this concept will work.

Any suggestions regarding the new mehness of Master's Touch?
Should I try to fit in an exotic two-handed profiency? Or just a one-handed Khopesh even?
Is it necessary to take a Fighter/Barb level?

[moorewr]

The Master's Touch change doesn't matter. If you're swapping weapons you might have to cast it a few times per rest instead of once. I'll take that over the lag spike it used to cause...

Edit: also, I'm an advocate for rapier/ss on twf drow all the time, and you don't need master's Touch for that. Racial enhancements are good stuff.

[karl_k0ch]

Edit: also, I'm an advocate for rapier/ss on twf drow all the time, and you don't need master's Touch for that. Racial enhancements are good stuff.

twf drow sounds sweet, especially if you want a bit more dps, but how would you incorporate this in a build similar to this?

Starting stats should be: 15-16 Dex for (I)TWF, 14 Con (for not becoming too squishy), 13+ Str (Power Attack) , 16 Int for the same number of skills.
This leaves us at 14/16/14/16/8/10, for instance. The decrease of Cha by 4 costs 54 Spell Points, 2 levels of UMD and the urgent need of +Cha items in order to cast high level spells.
So it's a loss in the stat department. One could also go with 14/16/12/16/8/14, but that's the Way of the Squish, trading 20 HP for an increased Cha.

Drow have one feat less than a human, but then we don't need insightful reflexes. Anyway, if we want to purchase TWF or even ITWF, which feats one should drop?


I am under the impression that a Drow TWF Bard is better off going one of the popular 15-16 Bard based Warchanter builds.

[unbongwah]

This isn't quite what you asked for, but here's a modified version of one of my builds:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(1 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 16 Bard) 
Hit Points: 236
Spell Points: 475 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 17
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    20
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                     8
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         4                    24
Diplomacy             5                    25
Disable Device        5                    24
Haggle                1                     2
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     4
Intimidate            1                     2
Jump                  6                     9
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     4
Open Lock             6                    15
Perform               n/a                  24
Repair                1                     1
Search                5                    24
Spot                  3                     3
Swim                  2                     5
Tumble                6                     8
Use Magic Device      5                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Skill: Perform (+5)


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+3)


Level 8 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Perform (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Charisma I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lyric of Incredible Song II
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic IV
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I

TWF w/rapiers, though can be switched to scimitars (or khopesh if you take the feat); just take Slash instead of Pierce feats. Higher Reflex save than your build, so Evasion is more useful. Max ranks in Diplomacy (can take Haggle or Balance instead), Disable, Search, UMD; 22 ranks in Concentration & Perform; 11 ranks in Open Lock (I don't think your build has enough ranks of Spot to do much good). It does require a +2 DEX tome, but not until lvl 14; I deliberately delayed ITWF & GTWF partly to take Empower Heal earlier and partly to give you more time to find or buy that tome. So lower DPS but better healing than the average rogue / bard / ftr WC, which seems to be what you're after.

Rogue 2 can be delayed; I just prefer to have Evasion and +1 DEX sooner rather than later. Other options are rogue 2 / ftr 2 / bard 16 or rogue 3 / ftr 2 / bard 15. However, all of them give up Warchanter III, if & when it comes out.

[moorewr]

twf drow sounds sweet, especially if you want a bit more dps, but how would you incorporate this in a build similar to this?

Starting stats should be: 15-16 Dex for (I)TWF, 14 Con (for not becoming too squishy), 13+ Str (Power Attack) , 16 Int for the same number of skills.
This leaves us at 14/16/14/16/8/10, for instance. The decrease of Cha by 4 costs 54 Spell Points, 2 levels of UMD and the urgent need of +Cha items in order to cast high level spells.
So it's a loss in the stat department. One could also go with 14/16/12/16/8/14, but that's the Way of the Squish, trading 20 HP for an increased Cha.

Drow have one feat less than a human, but then we don't need insightful reflexes. Anyway, if we want to purchase TWF or even ITWF, which feats one should drop?


I am under the impression that a Drow TWF Bard is better off going one of the popular 15-16 Bard based Warchanter builds.

Agreed on level splits. 20 bard or 16 bard seem like good bets unless warchanter III is a game changer.

This is my take on evasion warchanter, Mr. Moonlight: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=181687
http://housetharashk.net/htforum/sho...6&postcount=67

In the end I went 16 bard/ 3 rogue/ 1 fighter. Otherwise you have to choose between extend and GTWF on a drow. twf=dex, dex=reflex save, and your case you can make do with a 12 int.