Now for something different

[William_the_Bat]

I really like playing rogues.

And I really like playing paladins.

While these two classes have some synergies, such as paladin saves + evasion, for the most part, it's not too easy to get them to mix.

Here's my take: the Batbreath build (named after ME, not after the old batman fighter/pally/rogue UMD monkeys)

Drow:

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 8
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 14

all level up points in STR

First level rogue, next two pally, repeat by taking a rogue level every third level (3, 7, 10, etc)

Feats:
1. toughness
3. power attack
6. combat expertise
9. improved critical
12. extend spell
15. cleave
18. tower shield

Skills: DD, search, spot, Open locks, UMD, Intimidate, in that order. You can't get them all on the pally levels, make up for it on the rogue levels. No, you won't max out intimidate, but with the high charisma you'll have a good chance of intercepting stuff that the sorcerer is kiting so you can smack it down.

Key enhancements: defender of sibrys II, mechanic I, lots of exalted smite, unyielding sovereignty.

Why drow? because I wanted the high int. A 32 point human could get the same skill points with 14 int and have 2 more con, but as a rogue, you'd lose the search and DD. Added bonus: elven dexterity enhancement and elven perception. Is it worth 20 HP in the end game? maybe not, but I built this before I could buy 32 pointers in the DDO store. (I have steadfastly refused to grind out favor beyond the house favor rewards and such. Just not my idea of fun)

So far this guy is level 11 (I switch characters a lot) has a beholder AC of 39, 42 with a bark potion.. not great for GH and the like, but I'm mostly hanging out with some F2P friends and being nigh-invulnerable on level 10-11ish quests. Obviously, he's S&B.. not a DPS monkey, but an exalted smite in the right place goes a long way toward making things dead.

How this actually works: so far, so good. Despite the low con, my saves and AC are more than enough for the quests I'm doing, and I've saved the day more than once as the last man standing when things get rough. As much fun as it is to play a sneaky rogue, sometimes it's fun to be the trap monkey that can go up and deliver a beat-down tank-style. You can sorta do the same thing with any number of ranger/rogue or monk/rogue type characters (and yes, the exploiter, I have one of those too) but to me the paladin is just plain more fun. And I'm having an absolute blast playing this character. I've got higher DPS characters, even higher DPS trapsmiths, that's not the point of this build, and you can certainly make a stronger evasion tank, though so far he's pretty good at that. It's more of a theme thing.

BUT here's the deal:

Do I want to switch up my plan a bit?

My main problem is the last few levels. this guy takes his 7th level of rogue at 19, then pally 13 at 20... and neither of those levels are particularly exciting.

Do I skip level 7 rogue to get 14 pally and zeal? (cause zeal is awesome!)

The main problem with that is the rogue levels are more for skill points than abilities.

I could skip the level 6 rogue at 16 and wait to take it at 20, so I could do some catch up on the skills at the end.. but that's a long stretch with no rogue levels for catch up, and it won't fully make up the point loss.

Option 2: dump defender of siberys altogether, drop combat expertise, tower shield, extend spell, and cleave and go bastard sword & two-handed fighting for shield + glancing blows? Go hunter of the dead II for the energy drain immunity and other goodies.

No reason I can't do both these things. but I'm not convinced I want to do either. Both would be giving up things to get something else

Given the premise: a pally/rogue evasion tank full trapsmith, how would you do it?

[stormarcher]

The only thing I can say is with a starting 8 con how are you going to have anywhere near good hp to do any sort of raids/high end quests with out.. Well being a manna sponge??

[Nezichiend]

The only thing I can say is with a starting 8 con how are you going to have anywhere near good hp to do any sort of raids/high end quests with out.. Well being a manna sponge??

I wouldn't call it a mana sponge, just 1 less inventory space for the cleric.

[Arkat]

Dude, CON is NOT a dump stat!

[steelrock]

Hi Welcome?

[stainer]

Hi Welcome?

The con score may have put him into shock, making him forget the needed "Hi Welcome". That is bad.

[stormarcher]

I wouldn't call it a mana sponge, just 1 less inventory space for the cleric.

As I respect what your build goals are here let me voice a few things.


As Arkat said con is not a dump stat so bump that up.
I feel as tho you are trying to maybe do to much with this build. What I would do is lower your Wisdom, Raise your con

[William_the_Bat]

Actually, I've done a defender pally to 20 with only a little more con (put all the points into cha and str). I TRd him into a TWF, which goes a lot different.. but he was pretty well nigh-invincible before I TRd him. This character is kinda like that one (before the TR), only with trapsmithing.

The idea is you don't get hit much, and you save a lot. When you do get hit, you have 5 lay on hands and one unyielding sovereignty ready to save your butt.

It also helps to be prepared and know both your strengths and limitations. I play very aggressively.. and still rarely get killed, because I play smart, and know what I'm getting into when deciding to charge ahead. I tend to charge the casters and exalted smite.. it's either dead or I have the agro, preferably out of AOE range of other party members. If I do fail an important save or take more than my share of damage, well, that's what the lay on hands are for. It's actually working out better on this guy than the old defender pally because of evasion.

Admittedly, I didn't spend long at 20 before I TRd (about 5 minutes while I figured out how to get up to the druid guy). So no, I didn't do epic. I hear AC is useless there, and frankly, it sounds like it's geared around particular types of builds and strategies, i.e. throw everything you've learned out the window and reroll an epic-grinder. Frankly, I'd rather TR and run korthos with a new build concept than grind for end-game loot. Maybe by the second TR I'll have enough con to take whatever it is that has people so worried.

[stormarcher]

Actually, I've done a defender pally to 20 with only a little more con (put all the points into cha and str). I TRd him into a TWF, which goes a lot different.. but he was pretty well nigh-invincible before I TRd him. This character is kinda like that one (before the TR), only with trapsmithing.

The idea is you don't get hit much, and you save a lot. When you do get hit, you have 5 lay on hands and one unyielding sovereignty ready to save your butt.

It also helps to be prepared and know both your strengths and limitations. I play very aggressively.. and still rarely get killed, because I play smart, and know what I'm getting into when deciding to charge ahead. I tend to charge the casters and exalted smite.. it's either dead or I have the agro, preferably out of AOE range of other party members. If I do fail an important save or take more than my share of damage, well, that's what the lay on hands are for. It's actually working out better on this guy than the old defender pally because of evasion.

Admittedly, I didn't spend long at 20 before I TRd (about 5 minutes while I figured out how to get up to the druid guy). So no, I didn't do epic. I hear AC is useless there, and frankly, it sounds like it's geared around particular types of builds and strategies, i.e. throw everything you've learned out the window and reroll an epic-grinder. Frankly, I'd rather TR and run korthos with a new build concept than grind for end-game loot. Maybe by the second TR I'll have enough con to take whatever it is that has people so worried.

If you have enough time to TR then go for it. I'm coming from a point of view that does not really have the time and patience to TR 2 times.

Anyways I see where your coming from and I wish you luck on this build

Edit: And yes you should skip level 7 rogue and go pally 14 and get zeal sooner

[Nezichiend]

I don't care how survivable your build is, it should not start with less than 12 con. Ever. Ever. Ever (well maybe not EVER but pretty much, I wouldn't even dream of starting with less than 12 but that's just me). 16 int is too high, traps aren't even that big of a deal in this game.

[William_the_Bat]

16 int is required for skill points. I took a +2 tome at 7, too. Intimidate is worth it, even if it'll never be epic raid boss level, it's awesome for crowd control and for distracting things being kited by archers and sorcerers. (my guildies know who I'm talking about!)

Admittedly, if I had had 32 point builds when I'd rolled this guy, I could have started with 14 int and gotten the same skill points as a 32 point human and had 2 more con. This would actually help.. but I may end up wanting to take the second elven dex enhancement.. I'll have to re-look at that when I get to where I'm looking at dragontouched leathers vs a good mithral BP. (just scored a +5 mith bp of command last night, one alchemy ritual later, my beholder AC is 41. I've got some work to do, but I'm getting there)

So a TR version of this build would be human, with more con... and either the new version or the old version can lesser reincarnate in later levels to lower wisdom for more con. Added bonus, humans get an extra feat, which would make the bastard-sword and two-handed fighting for splash damage that much more feasible.

As for "I don't care how survivable you are, never start with less than 12 con"..
Um, isn't the whole point of not starting with low con to be more survivable? I'm busting through quests, normal or elite, and tanking stuff that has squishier characters screaming "heal heal heal!", and using intimidate and lay on hands to keep the rest of the party going. I probably will lesser for more con later at the expense of wisdom, but for now more con would simply be more margin for error before I lay on hands myself. I'm not even packing virtue.. instead I keep lionheart loaded for my non-fear-immune friends. (comes in handy on desert loot runs)

Also, traps may not mean much to you, but since I enjoy that aspect of the game, I want a trapsmith. In fact, that's the whole basis of this build: a trapsmithing paladin. Evasion is just bonus. Yes, I can twitch/bypass/take-and-heal my way through most traps in the game on most characters, but to me it lacks satisfaction. If I can disable a trap, I want to, and not only for the XPs, but because it's fun.

[AyumiAmakusa]

I don't care how survivable your build is, it should not start with less than 12 con. Ever. Ever. Ever (well maybe not EVER but pretty much, I wouldn't even dream of starting with less than 12 but that's just me). 16 int is too high, traps aren't even that big of a deal in this game.

It's do-able with a low starting Con. You just need to increase via the other methods available. Tomes, level-up stat, +6 Con Item, Shroud Item, HP+ items.

[Lorz]

Ok as soon as you stated that the low hp just reduces the margin of error...you started sounding like another I know...who xcalims his dps is his AC. Your fooling yourself.

In epic you get hit....period and you will be worthless.


Please remember the easiest epics are already out....they only get harder.

You will be a one hit wonder in epic. One hit and we will wonder where you went.

Ding

[Lorz]

It's do-able with a low starting Con. You just need to increase via the other methods available. Tomes, level-up stat, +6 Con Item, Shroud Item, HP+ items.

Um..those are pretty much all standard on any regular or high con toon....so don't count them as fixes...because it's a wash...he's still desperately under hp.

[gott_ist_tot]

Sorcs/wizzies and archers kite mobs for a reason. Interestingly enough (in case of arcanes) it's a good reason. Now, if someone develops intimi as a sole reason for intercepting archer kitees, I'm all for it. In case of arcane, I'd develop higher intim than this build just to counter it

[William_the_Bat]

If a cleric is kiting a monster through a blade barrier, I'll let them do it. If a sorc is kiting through a firewall, I'll stand in the firewall and intimidate there, so the monster will sit in the firewall attacking me (they aren't that bright).

As for epic, yeah, I haven't done epic. Nothing I've heard about epic makes me want to try it. Seriously, a build that's good for 20 levels is suddenly junk in epic.. so either reincarnate as an epic-friendly build, or skip it. If I TR twice and end up with a 16 con build I'll still be junk in epic, because this build's focus is AC, and AC is meaningless in epic.

But here's the thing: why should I not play a build that's fun to play for 95% of the content in the game just because of epic? I'm not much of an end-game raider.. I've got some 2nd tier greensteels, one TR back up to 15, and a level 19 exploiter-based ranger.. and I'd rather try something new and interesting to see how it works than grind out 20 shrouds.

I understand that my playstyle is not like that of some other people. I know I'm weird in that I'd rather do WW for the 2nd time on an experimental build than the shroud for the 19th time on a character I know kicks butt. For now I'm still having fun with my guildies and occasionally my wife in non-epic play.. if that changes, then heck, I got a few characters I can lesser reincarnate into epic grinding goodness.

[William_the_Bat]

Oh yeah, I think I'll delay rogue 6 to level 20, that way I'll be able to catch up a bit on skills, and still get my zeal at level 19.

[gott_ist_tot]

But here's the thing: why should I not play a build that's fun to play for 95% of the content in the game just because of epic?

Meh, I don't care, play what's fun.

But until I see some HP calculations proving you get at least more than 300, then con 8 looks like a good pretendent to get one-shotted even when not on epic. Even on some non-elite content. Just this. And even getting two-shotted is not fun, neither for the player nor for the cleric trying to heal the other 10 ppl and suddenly one bloke needing all his attention.

P.S. Ofc you don't need to prove anything, it's just a matter of convincing one anonymous bloke. Proving someone out there in them interwebs wrong is overrated a bit so you may want to pass.

[Loromir]

I really like playing rogues.

And I really like playing paladins.

While these two classes have some synergies, such as paladin saves + evasion, for the most part, it's not too easy to get them to mix.

Here's my take: the Batbreath build (named after ME, not after the old batman fighter/pally/rogue UMD monkeys)

Drow:

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 8
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 14

all level up points in STR

First level rogue, next two pally, repeat by taking a rogue level every third level (3, 7, 10, etc)

Feats:
1. toughness
3. power attack
6. combat expertise
9. improved critical
12. extend spell
15. cleave
18. tower shield

Skills: DD, search, spot, Open locks, UMD, Intimidate, in that order. You can't get them all on the pally levels, make up for it on the rogue levels. No, you won't max out intimidate, but with the high charisma you'll have a good chance of intercepting stuff that the sorcerer is kiting so you can smack it down.

Key enhancements: defender of sibrys II, mechanic I, lots of exalted smite, unyielding sovereignty.

Why drow? because I wanted the high int. A 32 point human could get the same skill points with 14 int and have 2 more con, but as a rogue, you'd lose the search and DD. Added bonus: elven dexterity enhancement and elven perception. Is it worth 20 HP in the end game? maybe not, but I built this before I could buy 32 pointers in the DDO store. (I have steadfastly refused to grind out favor beyond the house favor rewards and such. Just not my idea of fun)

So far this guy is level 11 (I switch characters a lot) has a beholder AC of 39, 42 with a bark potion.. not great for GH and the like, but I'm mostly hanging out with some F2P friends and being nigh-invulnerable on level 10-11ish quests. Obviously, he's S&B.. not a DPS monkey, but an exalted smite in the right place goes a long way toward making things dead.

How this actually works: so far, so good. Despite the low con, my saves and AC are more than enough for the quests I'm doing, and I've saved the day more than once as the last man standing when things get rough. As much fun as it is to play a sneaky rogue, sometimes it's fun to be the trap monkey that can go up and deliver a beat-down tank-style. You can sorta do the same thing with any number of ranger/rogue or monk/rogue type characters (and yes, the exploiter, I have one of those too) but to me the paladin is just plain more fun. And I'm having an absolute blast playing this character. I've got higher DPS characters, even higher DPS trapsmiths, that's not the point of this build, and you can certainly make a stronger evasion tank, though so far he's pretty good at that. It's more of a theme thing.

BUT here's the deal:

Do I want to switch up my plan a bit?

My main problem is the last few levels. this guy takes his 7th level of rogue at 19, then pally 13 at 20... and neither of those levels are particularly exciting.

Do I skip level 7 rogue to get 14 pally and zeal? (cause zeal is awesome!)

The main problem with that is the rogue levels are more for skill points than abilities.

I could skip the level 6 rogue at 16 and wait to take it at 20, so I could do some catch up on the skills at the end.. but that's a long stretch with no rogue levels for catch up, and it won't fully make up the point loss.

Option 2: dump defender of siberys altogether, drop combat expertise, tower shield, extend spell, and cleave and go bastard sword & two-handed fighting for shield + glancing blows? Go hunter of the dead II for the energy drain immunity and other goodies.

No reason I can't do both these things. but I'm not convinced I want to do either. Both would be giving up things to get something else

Given the premise: a pally/rogue evasion tank full trapsmith, how would you do it?

To make this even more fun, why not go Drow and just take Con at 6, and plow a couple more points into Dex or Int?

[unbongwah]

I'm playing something similar: drow rogue 5 / paladin 15, although I went TWF not S&B and am only focusing on 3 skills (DD, Search, UMD). Currently rogue 2 / paladin 5 and so far it's been a fun solo build: pretty good DPS, great saves + Evasion, adequate trapmonkey (with the right gear), some self-healing (though I still need wands or a cleric hireling to get thru longer adventures). My AC sucks, but I have a bit of DR from my Ironweave Tunic. I figure if I decide to abandon the trapmonkey thing, I'll do an LR to either pure paladin or rogue 2 / paladin 18.