DPS drop in rogues = ~70%?

[Quarterling]

FIXED. Read below.

Correct me if I have any math wrong, this is how I think the attacks per animation will compare between now and Update 5. No other bonus attacks are calculated in here and bonuses to attack speed is disregarded.

The purpose of these charts is to compare the DPS drop in rogues.

A rogue can have Improved and Greater TWF, but first some charts on how many attacks one would get upon completing an attack animation cycle.

Pre-Update 5
2 2 1 1 = Normal (6 attacks)
2 2 1 1 = TWF (6 attacks)
2 2 2 1 = ITWF (7 attacks)
2 2 2 2 = GTWF (8 attacks)

Post-Update 5
(1+.2) (1+.2) (1+.2) (1+.2) = Normal (4.8 attacks)
(1+.4) (1+.4) (1+.4) (1+.4) = TWF (5.6 attacks)
(1+.6) (1+.6) (1+.6) (1+.6) = ITWF (6.4 attacks)
(1+.8) (1+.8) (1+.8) (1+.8) = GTWF (7.2 attacks)

So after fixing the tables and re-doing the math, it seems as if the drop in DPS for pure rogues with GTWF is only 10%? I guess I can live with that, but in my honest opinion it has nothing to do with fixing lag.

[ConnorMacLoad]

9 to 6.4. This is about 70%

I do not know about the rest, but this is not right. That is 71% of the original number, or a 29% loss in attack speed.

[Quarterling]

I do not know about the rest, but this is not right. That is 71% of the original number, or a 29% loss in attack speed.

Oh yes, I just forgot to flip the numbers when I was doing it on paper. *Fixed*

[Calebro]

First of all, it should look like this:

Pre-Update 5
2 2 1 1 = Normal (6 attacks)
2 2 1 1 = TWF (6 attacks)
2 2 2 1 = ITWF (7 attacks)
2 2 2 2 = GTWF (8 attacks)

Tempest III Rangers were the only ones that received 9 attacks per round before, and we're not talking about Rangers here.

Secondly, Eldarin claimed that he was convinced that STWF was not in the interest of the game, which I assume meant that it would not be implemented. This claim was made with little time left after a holiday weekend before it went live on Lama. This leads me to believe that STWF won't go live in U5, regardless of the fact that it's there now.

Rework your numbers with these changes.

[Aspenor]

superior twf is not supposed to go live for anybody.

[SaisMatters]

Don't rogues have a BAB 15 at level 20?

[Aspenor]

Don't rogues have a BAB 15 at level 20?

Yes, but they don't get a feat at level 20.

[SaisMatters]

Yes, but they don't get a feat at level 20.

will they be able to swap a feat at level 20 via Fred for STWF?

[Aspenor]

will they be able to swap a feat at level 20 via Fred for STWF?

no, because:
1. You can't swap in feats you didn't qualify for when you took the feat you have.
2. STWF isn't going to go live.

[Coldin]

will they be able to swap a feat at level 20 via Fred for STWF?

Doesn't matter since STWF won't be added to the game.

[Calebro]

will they be able to swap a feat at level 20 via Fred for STWF?

As both myself and Aspenor have already said, it will probably not go live.
So no, they won't be able to swap a feat for it because it won't exist.

[Aesop]

will they be able to swap a feat at level 20 via Fred for STWF?

no you must meet the prerequisites at the level the feat is for

ie the 18th level feat would only have a BAB of 13 so ut would not accept a BAB 15 feat

[Calebro]

What about Monkey Grip?

[SaisMatters]

no, because:
1. You can't swap in feats you didn't qualify for when you took the feat you have.
2. STWF isn't going to go live.

this is good news, that I missed it seems. Can you hit me with the link on this please Aspenor!

[Calebro]

this is good news, that I missed it seems. Can you hit me with the link on this please Aspenor!

Here ya go

Still catching up through the thread, but a few comments:

1) I've been convinced that STWF is not a benefit to the game. Instead of opening up new options, its presence instead would close many.
2) The Barbarian Capstone's alacrity bonus is a bug.

[SaisMatters]

Here ya go

danka

[Symar-FangofLloth]

First of all, it should look like this:

Pre-Update 5
2 2 1 1 = Normal (6 attacks)
2 2 1 1 = TWF (6 attacks)
2 2 2 1 = ITWF (7 attacks)
2 2 2 2 = GTWF (8 attacks)

Expanding off of this, Post-Update 5, assuming the current numbers and build, would look like this:

1+.2 1+.2 1+.2 1+.2 = Normal (4.8 attacks)
1+.4 1+.4 1+.4 1+.4 = TWF (5.6 attacks)
1+.6 1+.6 1+.6 1+.6 = ITWF (6.4 attacks)
1+.8 1+.8 1+.8 1+.8 = GTWF (7.2 attacks)


We lose 20% of our offhand attacks, or 10% of total attacks if we have GTWF. This is true for all classes, with the exceptions of 20 Fighter (who gets 10% more mainhand attacks), Paladin with Zeal active (who also gets 10% more mainhand attacks), and Tempest Ranger (who gets varying buffs based on which tier of the PrE).

[Calebro]

Expanding off of this, Post-Update 5, assuming the current numbers and build, would look like this:

Ah, good catch. I didn't notice the missing off hand checks for the first attack when I read it.

[SaisMatters]

Not trying to de-rail this thread, appologies if it seems so, but it seem that the stoppage of STWF isn't being talked about alot that I can find. So my question is what else did I miss on how they are changing TWF. Are they leaving it alone, or will TWF line still only give your second hand a percentage chance of hitting?

[Calebro]

Not trying to de-rail this thread, appologies if it seems so, but it seem that the stoppage of STWF isn't being talked about alot that I can find. So my question is what else did I miss on how they are changing TWF. Are they leaving it alone, or will TWF line still only give your second hand a percentage chance of hitting?

The quote by Eldarin that I linked to was from the thread discussing the changes. He was updating the OP as things changed, so I'm under the assumption that it will go forward in U5 as stated in the edited OP, with the sole exception of the removal of STWF.

I say that "I'm under the assumption" because there has been little else to go on at this point. After that thread devolved into chaos, I doubt it was even read any further by the Devs. They certainly haven't commented on it in a while that I'm aware of.

So it looks as if the rest of the changes are going forward as planned. But you never really know around here, huh?