seen many different rogue/wiz would like feedback

[hockeyrama]

I have seen many different attepts to combine rogue and wizard. I put together a drow that I would like to try. I don't have Wf and so it is not an option. This character will be good for traps and spell use. I did not pick spells as when i play a wizard I eventually buy all the spells so no need picking what I will choose on lelvel as I will but it later.

Here he is the level 2 rogue, 18 wizard:

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Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 208
Spell Points: 1573 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 18
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    10
Dexterity            10                    12
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence         19                    28
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             15                    16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     4
Bluff                 2                     3
Concentration         1                    25
Diplomacy             6                     7
Disable Device        8                    32
Haggle                6                     7
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     1
Intimidate            2                     3
Jump                  4                     4
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         0                     1
Open Lock             4                    20.5
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                8                    14
Search                8                    34
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  4                     4
Tumble                1                     2
Use Magic Device      6                    26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Improved Spell Resistance I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting I


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 10 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Improved Mental Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements III
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Subtle Spellcasting II


Level 19 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements III


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II

I will take out the last point in open lock and add to repair to help wf rest. I did not see that i left it at half until I posted.

Outside of that take a look and make any suggestions other then switch to WF.

[GhoulsTouch]

Believe it or not I am impressed with this one. You even made room for open locks.
Wizrogues scare me though...I mean personally I would be scared to play one. Blowing a trap is one thing, but it seems so much easier to die when you do.

True I wouldn't know. It just seems dangerous.

[hockeyrama]

it is true you not have improved evasion but you have evasion so if you make the reflex save you good. This one will have a good reflex save. However, failing a trap hurts for any build and the DD on this one means will not fail many traps once you add in gear.

Thank you for liking my design. Will try this one soon, just want some more feedback.

[Phidius]

Here's some more feedback for you...

1. One of the biggest benefits to going Drow is to get max Int - I'd start with a 20. You're not going to be hurting for UMD, so I'd take it from Charisma.

2. You will want points in Spot to find the traps - this is more important than the repair skill. You can just use a spell (or scroll) to top off the WF if they need it.

3. I'd strongly suggest getting Empower, too... the extra heat from your spells will be well worth it.

4. Try to get a high Diplomacy - if you aren't getting aggro, then you're not doing it right. My Wizzes try to get and hold all the aggro they can, but I'm guessing that's not what you're shooting for.

[Nevthial]

Just a few tips:

1. As a Lawful Good you'll take more damage in certain areas.

2. Take Empower instead of Force of Personality.

3. Improved Mental Toughness isn't really needed on a Drow Wiz. You'd be better served with something else, such as Heighten spell.

4. Drop Repair skill and put those points into Balance.

5. Do your enhancements how you wish, but Dex boosting isn't really needed on that character. ( I have mine set up for full lines on Acid/Ele , Cold/Fire & some spell pen to offset the level drop. )

6. Hit points are king in DDO, and a 14 Cha is good enough for high UMD, even a 12 really, dump the remaining into CON. ( I wish I had at times on mine )


I'll give some background on my own Wiz/Rog , it was one of the first, if not the first to be built for 18/2 at end game on my server. I had no Insightful Reflexes feat available, and only 4 enhancements to choose from when it was created. With everything we have available to us now, The 18 Wiz/ 2 Rog can be very, very powerful.

[hockeyrama]

the few points in repair where as that is a class feat so got it at full. Just want it to help the wf when they rest not really for trying to use repair skill. They will get the benefit from a higher repair skill wehn resting if they do not have it high themselves.

I took maximize instead of the others and grabbed enahncements to lower the cost. should I also take empower as well. is it not better to just leave on maximize.

I did the dex boosting mainly for tht bonus to reflex. If he actually going to do alot of traps and avoid the damage from spells cast at him he can make better use of his dex for evading.

the build is drow and I started with 15 cha, so moving it to 14 only gives me 1 extra point. With con at 13 I would not even be able to move it to 14. I could move dex or str or wis up 1 but not really see that as good as keeping the cha higher. The extra point in umd makes it easier to use more and more gear. I should by the end be able to use almost anything.

[Nevthial]

the few points in repair where as that is a class feat so got it at full. Just want it to help the wf when they rest not really for trying to use repair skill. They will get the benefit from a higher repair skill wehn resting if they do not have it high themselves.

I took maximize instead of the others and grabbed enahncements to lower the cost. should I also take empower as well. is it not better to just leave on maximize.

I did the dex boosting mainly for tht bonus to reflex. If he actually going to do alot of traps and avoid the damage from spells cast at him he can make better use of his dex for evading.

the build is drow and I started with 15 cha, so moving it to 14 only gives me 1 extra point. With con at 13 I would not even be able to move it to 14. I could move dex or str or wis up 1 but not really see that as good as keeping the cha higher. The extra point in umd makes it easier to use more and more gear. I should by the end be able to use almost anything.

Repair skill is useless at higher levels. You'll be topping them off with scrolls if you want to save sp. You need Maximize,Empower, and full enhancements for spell damage at higher levels, or you'd be wasting sp. Insightful Reflexes feat overrides utilizing Dex for Reflex save, so those enhancements are wasted points. As Phidius pointed out, a 20 starting Int is the real power of a Drow. You can survive with a 13 CON if you're planning on using tomes later ( not just +1 ones either) , but it may be a bit tough until you learn mobs, quests, ect.

[voodoogroves]

Having leveled one (WF), my feedback.

Spot isn't as useful as knowing the quest.
Balance is awesome.
Your open locks will suffer from a lower dex and the lack of the higher rogue boosts. If you want to open locks well, rely on your dex and don't waste the feat on Insightful Reflexes.

Extend, Maximize, Quicken, Empower - this are crucial. Heighten only if you're going to be using level 4 save spells at end game, otherwise use finger and wail. I personally like Enlarge as it allows me to charm things from very very far away.

Toughness ... yes. Mental Toughness ... not really needed, unless you're hoping for Wraith Form / Pale Master.

Force of Personality - Not really necessary. Take it if you have room, but really not necessary.

Consider SF / GSF in necromancy or enchantment if you have room.

Keep both spell penetrations.

[Nevthial]

Your open locks will suffer from a lower dex and the lack of the higher rogue boosts. If you want to open locks well, rely on your dex and don't waste the feat on Insightful Reflexes.

Are you really suggesting he gimp his Reflex save for a +2(sic.) to Open Locks skill ? LOL +5 tools drop like rain and +15/17 Open Lock items are not hard to get at end game.

[Phidius]

Having leveled one (WF), my feedback.

Spot isn't as useful as knowing the quest.

Some quests (usually newer ones, although some old ones too) have variable trap locations, so knowing the quest only means that you'll be searching all the possible ones just in case... or running through them.

It's also embarrasing to run past all the hidden mobs - my friends taunt me mercilessly when I do

Spot isn't vital, but it's much better than Repair.

Balance is awesome.

Indeed.

Your open locks will suffer from a lower dex and the lack of the higher rogue boosts. If you want to open locks well, rely on your dex and don't waste the feat on Insightful Reflexes.

Really? Which locks can't be hit with 4 ranks in Open Lock? I only know of one, but it takes all of 20 seconds to go get the key...

I'd rather have a reflex save in the 30s than one in the 20s...

Extend, Maximize, Quicken, Empower - this are crucial. Heighten only if you're going to be using level 4 save spells at end game, otherwise use finger and wail. I personally like Enlarge as it allows me to charm things from very very far away.

Heighten gives a +2 to Finger, while GSF:Necromancy only adds 1. Heighten also helps web...

[voodoogroves]

I hear you Phidius; let me explain my thinking. I have both a pure wizard and a rog/wiz mix. For me then, and this is my experience as a newer player without all the super gear yet and infinite finances, it was easier to focus and specialize.

On the rog/wiz mix, you're giving up some things and spending lots of effort trying to "get equal". I find that on the rog/wiz when I'm throwing on the metamagics just to get my spells to a point they'll land as reliably as a pure wiz, I'm depleting my smaller mana pool too fast.

I guess on my first rog/wiz I found out quickly I couldn't do it all. I'd love to have great spell penetration, all the optional metamagics I want, DC boosters on the key spells I found I was using ... but the rogue wiz is short on those. You need spell pen just to get equal, for isntance.

Some of it might be getting used to the character - as the opportunity cost to use a clicky, turn a metamagic on/off, etc. are all things that are glossed over frequently but have real practical implications.

Again, in my experience slogging through on the rog/wiz.

-------------

Now if we wind ahead and play something like one of your Wiz 12 / something else builds ... you can't do everything on those - but what you've discovered is the mix of things you can do, enjoy doing and optimizing on a few different capabilities. Can you effectively hold monsters? Not as well as the pure wiz - but that's ok, you probably aren't doing so much of that.

[Phidius]

I hear you Phidius; let me explain my thinking. I have both a pure wizard and a rog/wiz mix. For me then, and this is my experience as a newer player without all the super gear yet and infinite finances, it was easier to focus and specialize.

The link I posted earlier is virtually the same build that I used for my first toon on Cannith. It's a great build when you have no resources.

On the rog/wiz mix, you're giving up some things and spending lots of effort trying to "get equal". I find that on the rog/wiz when I'm throwing on the metamagics just to get my spells to a point they'll land as reliably as a pure wiz, I'm depleting my smaller mana pool too fast.

I guess on my first rog/wiz I found out quickly I couldn't do it all. I'd love to have great spell penetration, all the optional metamagics I want, DC boosters on the key spells I found I was using ... but the rogue wiz is short on those. You need spell pen just to get equal, for isntance.

Some of it might be getting used to the character - as the opportunity cost to use a clicky, turn a metamagic on/off, etc. are all things that are glossed over frequently but have real practical implications.

Again, in my experience slogging through on the rog/wiz.

-------------

A 2rogue/18wiz is just 1 DC and 2 spell pen below a pure wiz. I think both of them have to play smart...

1. Having appropriate items (Illusion/Necromancy/Enchantment/Transmutation and Spell Penetration weapon sets, Fire Lore and Potency, etc...)
2. Wise choice of crowd control including the type and timing
3. Good targeting - taking out the casters and letting the melee take out the trash
4. Like you said, turning metamagics off when they're not needed. For example, a lot of times a simple Extended Wall of Fire is all you need - you can turn off Maximize and Empower.

I like to build my casters to help with the trash, too - I don't think the OP is wanting this option, though.

I gotta say, it is fun to run through a quest and just PK/finger everything in sight

Now if we wind ahead and play something like one of your Wiz 12 / something else builds ... you can't do everything on those - but what you've discovered is the mix of things you can do, enjoy doing and optimizing on a few different capabilities. Can you effectively hold monsters? Not as well as the pure wiz - but that's ok, you probably aren't doing so much of that.

Gemstone can't hold monsters at all... unless he goes back to the Harbor. He's a melee build, not a caster build.

The beauty of an 18/2 (or 17/2/1) build is that it gives up very little casting ability compared to what it gains.