Armor issues that are just sad

[Mr_Ed7]

Great point...addressing the elephant in the room.

[Hauteclaire]

Would you be so kind as to link me a couple of those f2p games with readily available customisation features?
I have little experience with MMO gaming; I'd like to see what's out there, in terms of ease of personalisation.

Well the BEST one is City of Heroes/Villains. If you have Xfire you could add me and I can show you just how deep the character customization is. I basically can make ANYTHING in there look how I want. I can even color my attacks particles, swap animations and all kinds of things.

LOTRO lets you customize armor

Aion has a lot of good customization, more character related then what you wear in some ways.

All Points Bulletin

Champions Online

Demon's Souls which is awesome but that's a PS3 game.

Even Splintercell Conviction, not an mmo, but I can pick outfits right from the closet and then armor them up with upgrades but go from tactical gear to a t-shirt and jeans with just nightvision on.

There's some other Free ones but I don't remember all the names. City of Heroes/Villains is getting a major expansion called Going Rogue, in about a month or so from now. Also even though that game is based around comic books it's not exactly like that. I mean a lot of my characters look like Demons, angels and grammaton clerics heh (with the dual guns and actual gun kata that animates.) Another character summons Demons. There is just tooo much to say about that game. There is also an area in the game you can create you own missions(quests.) You can pick the look of every enemy, their exact powers they use, what they say, their name, the map, storyline, objectives, the ambushes, giant monsters, difficulty levels of various spawns in the map, interactive objects etc.

Anyway, I apologize to all for going off-topic. Just responding to a question!

[Osma77]

May have been mentioned before (this has gotten to be a long post) but my 2 cents say to look towards the DnD that the game was based on. Things have to be changed - i understand - in order to make combat quicker, and that tends to lend towards the "stat inflation" that i have read about. And for someone who learned DnD in both 2nd and 3rd edition, it is quite obvious that this is true.

Just one example of this is that in all the games i have played through the years, rarely have i seen someone who had a single stat that got above 24 (unlike my main who is only level 14 and still has both str, dex and wis between 22 and 28).
Another example is that in the games i have played (and DMed), having a ac of 25 was fairly good by level 10, and having a ac of over 30 was very good even at level 20. Of course if you DIDN'T have at least 30 by level 20, fighter mobs would be owning you, but at least a few hits would miss with an ac of 32 or so.

Yet on this game, the stats regularly hit far higher then even my paltry 28, and AC of 36 is barely enough to stop dogs from eating me at level 14; Bearded Devils just laugh at such low ac levels and own me. Why? Because as an attack chain increases, the BAB also increases due to the way that the game deals with attack chains. http://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_sequence
A level 10 fighter would theirfor attack with 10 bab on his first 2 hits (which is quite normal), then, if he attacks long enough, suddenly starts using 15 and 20. If this is true (and i assume it is) then a level 10 char can hit (at least once) an enemy as easily as a level 20 can. Is it any wonder then that monsters can hit us easily despite having a high armorclass?

Before i make my suggested fix, let me mention what i think should NOT be fixed. I dont think that increased stats are the problem: having a 30 str is of course more effective then a 25 str, but not hugely so. Also, I dont think that the game should stop giving such large bonuses to attack chains; without them, some people would have trouble hitting at all against armored enemies.
Instead, I think that armor should be effected itself. This could be done easily, and on retrospect, it makes sence that we had this problem all this time. The problem is that we are using the same general armor that PnP uses, yet we have much higher chance to hit. The fix could be done simply by adding both to the base amout of ac that each type of armor gives, and by increasing the bonus that each level of armor gives. For example, instead of a +5 full plate giving 8 ac +5 (13 ac total ignoring dex), make it a +10 full plate (change base to, say, 12, and then add 10 instead of 5). Ignoring other types of armor, this would make a char go from 23 ac (low) to 32 (much better). This would not only make armor more effective (making high levels of ac easier to obtain) but cloth wearers would not gain those bonuses, making it much less attractive to high level fighters (monks of course would need a simular bonus to armorclass by level, otherwise they would become far less useful since they almost HAVE to use cloth. )

[Arcticwarrior]

Robes allow you to move fast and get out of the way. Plate makes you harder to hurt. Well in the real world it would. As I can tell you right now if somoene puts on 300lbs of plate they are going to be so easy to hit its not even going to be funny.

Armor should make you hard to hurt not hard to hit. Reflex and dodging should make you hard to hit and not hard to hurt.

However most of DnD combined the 2 into genaric term AC which really would be better called damage mitigation. Think of it this way its hard to hurt someone in plate because of the plate. Its hard to hit a monk in cloth becasue he won't stand still.

what I said before

[Igrovin]

Well the whole AC system is broken anway~~Would someone suggest a fix to it?

Well from my observations, these are the problems I see with the AC system in DDO.

First is that they gone done away with things like Touch AC and Flatfooted AC. Flatfootedness was one of the biggest reasons to have full plate in pnp vs padded. Course touch was the opposite. Then of course all their "talent points" they wanted to throw into the game.

If we don't do a huge freeking overhall on AC in general, what should happen is a sort of a "super" damage reduction that stacks with all other forms of DR. More importantly it even can reduce the damage of spells, as that is really one of the biggest killers in this game for the tin can soldiers. Cause its like you wade into a room of kobolds who don't do anything in damage, then poof, some shaman pops off a scorching ray in your face.. twice. using the trademarked chain casting tech that all monsters have.

Of course with a shield this is even greater. After all, in PNP you could use a tower shield to actually stop line of sight, and prevent some spells from being cast (mostly damaging ones that can't attack items, such as magic missile)

[Djimonte]

Here is a solution to the AC issue and wearing robes vs armor. Give armor a higher dr to attacks, give a shield bonus feature for sword board types, make it where a unarmored person getting hit make a reflex save failing they recieve triple damage output and also recieve a ill affect being knocked unconsious major blood loss by ticks etc etc. This issue can easily be resolved by adding factors to balance out running around in robes versus armor as armor was made for a reason.

[LordPiglet]

I'm not saying you should be able to obtain BOTH. Not at all.
Although one could argue that fair's fair, and if Monks and Rangers can reach 70+ AC without giving up any dps, then so should tanks... but that's not an argument I'm making here.

I'm simply saying if you want stellar AC in plate, you're more or less forced to go S&B and pick up either SD or DoS PrEs.
As noted above, you *can* obtain a good AC in plate even if TWF/THF, but note that that poster *still* had to go DoS/SD to obtain it.

Don't see why you shouldn't be able have a "good" to "very good" rating AC as, say, a TWF KoTC. But in it's current state, that's very very hard to do without a ton of grinding for the best gear out there.

The Monk splashes have merely to take 1 monk level to get an instant +5-10 AC generally. And that's what I feel is broken.

Monks and rangers are giving up DPS to reach those numbers. Maybe less then other classes, but they are giving it up. For rangers that means that can't dump dex (and take only a 13) or they have to go weapon finesse use light weapons and still not have the strength damage bonuses.

Monks to have the best AC have to put points into Dex, Wisdom (along with Strength and Con) or the same issue with dumping strength to the power attack minimum and going weapon finesse. Monk splashes need wisdom to get the bonuses, and dex if they're going to be in pj's.

There's always a sacrifice to do something.

[TheKaige]

AC is broken in this game because of
1. Massively overinflated stats; We have 28,32,34,and 36 point character builds. An average power DnD campaign has 25 point build characters. Enhancements further break the system by letting our stats go even higher.

2. The fact that monsters don't have an attack chain where each attack in the chain is progressively easier to dodge ala PnP, and the fact that the PC attack chain actually makes it easier to hit with each attack creates an atmosphere where you either have Max AC, or no AC.

I would sort of like to see armor changed into damage reduction that stacks with everything, as it simply makes sense, but I imagine there would have to be an almost complete overhaul of everything in game to preserve balance throughout the levels. + If armor becomes DR, shields should lose their DR (It doesn't even make sense for shields to have DR) and instead to have higher AC values.

As for the lack of flatfooted in this game making dex builds better, I personally believe that you could balance some of that by 1. Making meaningful stealth mobs who can actually sneak up to an equal level party, and make it so that whenever a stealthed mob attacks anyone who hasn't "detected them" (found them with a spot or listen check) the victim is effectively flat-footed (no dex bonus, shield bonus, dodge bonus, or anything that requires you be aware of the mob). And make it so that whenever a monster attacks you from behind, you also suffer the effects of being flat-footed. Then you can make Uncanny Dodge what it's s'posed to be (an ability to retain your AC bonuses when flatfooted) instead of that cute little clicky.

[Uryamore]

I would prefer the method to fix AC that uses decaying AB on attack chains, but I don't know how much of the base combat code would need to be rewritten to maintain a chain for X attacks or 6 seconds, whichever comes first, regardless of twitching.
If it's like some of the other low level code, it was written by one guy who's no longer there and didn't comment his code clearly, as I have dealt with such code before, I know it isn't quick, easy, or sometimes even possible to predict all the effects of your changes. Combine that with all the people who want new content, and I can understand why the devs wouldn't touch it with an eleven foot pole from the safety of protection from elements and stoneskin.

[Hauteclaire]

I started this thread to talk about the mechanics but also look. You guys are getting that right? I understand people are giving up things to wear lesser armor or whatever, but in my mind, in a over 40 D&D books I own, tons of fantasy art books, movies, games and cartoons and other novels that person with the big swords and armor go hand in hand. There is a lot of multi-classes I want to try but because you have to wear robes and clothing, I don't want to play it - and that limits what I can play. Re-playability is low because of it. It's not because of the AR as much as how it looks. It looks bad. I was merely saying it would be really great if they let us pick the actual LOOK (not stats) of what we wear. So I can make this TWF evasion character but have the appearance of the full plate (just appearance) and not look like a person in their bathroom or 90s rapper pants, swinging swords. It's again a visual thing. I do think in a "fantasy" game though, ANY armor over robes or clothing should be better than some player in robes with duals.

They need to update the look of the armor. E3 this year really hooked me with many other new games that offer massive armor and let you use big swords... and I know the rest of those games will be like Lineage 2, which in NO WAY compares to DDOs dungeon adventures, but I am tired of wearing robes and cloth with swords and the whole "ar means nothing in the end" scenario. It shouldn't be that way, just looking at all the fantasy art across all mediums out there.

In Demon's Souls you wear huge armor and the heavier it is the slower you move and evade but you STILL can. You just need to time it better, there is a smaller window and you can "feel" through the dual shock mostly, the armors "weight" as you recover from a roll on the ground slower than a class with clothing on. It's still possible it requires more skill, and you have to make sure when you hit with your weapon, you don't miss. Demon's Souls really did do it right. I mean they have it so when you swing a sword in closed in spaces you hit the wall and don't make contact with the creature you are fighting, leaving you open for instant death. Dying there is more realistic than DDO, where I can take a lot of punishment before dropping. In Demon's Souls, I wear huge armor and do great dps, sure evade super slow, but that just means I have to be MORE focused when I do evade and I have to recover from the roll but it's more realistic than the system in this game. Also I can BLOCK with my sword and shield (unlike DDO.) So the trade-off for slow evasion in high armor is worth it. Blocking wears endurance (or stamina. forgot which) down, so you have to play smart. So while the whole realism of clothing being faster over armor makes sense, but that doesn't mean it's better, as aheavy armor using characters can still evade (slower) and fight and because of the "armored like a tank" aspect, I can block incoming damage, which is worth more to me then being a dexterity monkey... and I honestly don't see how people can evade well in a robe, and I've been doing martial arts for 14 years. On the other hand, I'd be happy wearing a cloth shirt, PLATE legs or plate and chain combined and maybe the same in the arms, but heavier armor on the shoulders. That look would be more acceptable over MC Hammer's pants or Hugh Hefner's robe.

Again, I hope I explained this well. English is definitely not my first language so I apologize for that. I just am trying to clarify some points I seem to have missed in my original post when I started this thread. I also agree with everyone who thinks they should add my properties to heavy armor. Overall, it would be BEST if they just let us pick the graphic/model/visual look of the armor we want to wear (even if it isn't that armor) like LOTRO does. Ilove this game and I want more variety when I play a multi-class then knowing I will be settling on cloth and robes AGAIN as I swing two swords in battle. It's getting old to look at.

[Alabore]

That look would be more acceptable over MC Hammer's pants or Hugh Hefner's robe.
Again, I hope I explained this well. English is definitely not my first language so I apologize for that.

English might be a second language for you, but you got me chuckling over the Hugh Hefner reference...



No mincing of words here: I said that before; I agree with you - we'd like our characters to look the part, and maybe even feel like it.

To some of us, especially the f2p late comers, DDO is what NWN2 could have been, if only they had made it so loading a one-story inn didn't take 5 minutes to unload previous area and unpack the code to new zone.

There is a nice action feel to it - not unlike old action fantasy games such as Severance - Blade of Darkness.

...

As mentioned before: the underlying issue with AC vs HP mechanics comes straight from pnp DnD.
AC and DR do not scale with level - much; HPs do.

DDO is exacerbating the existing AC>DR issue with inflation of AC and HP at higher levels.
If damage mitigation through Passive Resistance were viable, players would consider building different characters.
More variety and more options to reach the same goal.

This wouldn't be a big deviation from pnp spirit either - DDO is already taking liberties with pnp letter anyway.
AC was a cunning concept conceived to make maths easier for human players rolling dice and keeping tracking of several characters involved in a fight.
Computers could cope with more refined mechanics - Rule Variations from Unearthed Arcana come to mind - without betraying the spirit of the game.

...

Stray thought: physics engine could be further tweaked to accommodate for ragdoll effects.
The concept is already there: when fighting giants you sometimes get shoved behind.
Feasibility could be an issue, but it would help immersion a lot.

[KKDragonLord]

Well the whole AC system is broken anway~~Would someone suggest a fix to it?

There have been many suggestions (some quite valid) on how to fix it for a long time now, im just wondering when the Devs will start considering them seriously in the future.

Its such a huge deal that would pretty much require a full rebalancing of the entire game (no easy "one size fits all" solutions) so i don't expect them to get on it any time soon, the game works more or less well enough as it is so its not a priority for them.

The greatest factors that makes it hard to touch the AC beehive is the way it could dramatically affect item drops and current "hard earned" equipment, and we all know how Sacred a cow our Loot is.

The hardest part would be to find ways to change it that would still be true to the rules (which were also suggested several times), that seems even less of a priority considering the changes that have been going on since mod 9 came about. In which case, i am more or less happy with the way things are, for i don't believe any meaningful changes would be in line with the PnP rules (which they certainly can be with a little extra effort)

[barakhiel]

Another thing worth addressing; if I recall correctly, on pnp, you would take a fairly hefty penalty for just "splashing" without leveling all classes you multiclass into evenly (with the exception of the Half-Elf race). It was a penalty that did make multiclassing not worth it in most cases. Of course, the 3.5 rules had it "officially" set as an XP penalty, but of course the DM had free realm to make it whatever penalty he felt was fair. Such an XP penalty would be fairly meaningless in DDO, since the maximum level is 20 and most 18 level Clerics wouldn't mind having to get to 20 a little bit slower so they could catch 2 levels of monk for the ac and evasion...

The point I am trying to reach is that multiclassing is supposed to be used so you are effective in multiple fields, however you will never be as powerful as a guy that dedicates all his levels to a single class. A Swiss army knife comes in handy in far more situations than a hunting knife, but it will never be as good a knife as the hunting knife. But all the time you see multiclassed characters easy succeeding beyond someone who is a level 20 Rogue/Cleric/Barbarian/Fighter...

What would be best is to incur a penalty on characters that do not level their classes evenly, just like in pnp rules. A lot of players will be upset and possibly outraged over this, but they are trying to cheat a system anyways...

Maybe then you'll see fewer players running around in pajamas when they see the penalty they take for that AC that the monk levels gets them...

[Aesop]

Another thing worth addressing; if I recall correctly, on pnp, you would take a fairly hefty penalty for just "splashing" without leveling all classes you multiclass into evenly (with the exception of the Half-Elf race). It was a penalty that did make multiclassing not worth it in most cases. Of course, the 3.5 rules had it "officially" set as an XP penalty, but of course the DM had free realm to make it whatever penalty he felt was fair. Such an XP penalty would be fairly meaningless in DDO, since the maximum level is 20 and most 18 level Clerics wouldn't mind having to get to 20 a little bit slower so they could catch 2 levels of monk for the ac and evasion...

The point I am trying to reach is that multiclassing is supposed to be used so you are effective in multiple fields, however you will never be as powerful as a guy that dedicates all his levels to a single class. A Swiss army knife comes in handy in far more situations than a hunting knife, but it will never be as good a knife as the hunting knife. But all the time you see multiclassed characters easy succeeding beyond someone who is a level 20 Rogue/Cleric/Barbarian/Fighter...

What would be best is to incur a penalty on characters that do not level their classes evenly, just like in pnp rules. A lot of players will be upset and possibly outraged over this, but they are trying to cheat a system anyways...

Maybe then you'll see fewer players running around in pajamas when they see the penalty they take for that AC that the monk levels gets them...

disagree on many many levels.

mostly the belief that a level 20 well planned Multi Class should be LESS powerful than a striaght anything is ridiculous. If two characters are level 20 they should be just about as powerful.

Multiclass characters have been being penalized repeatedly in DDO. See Capstones and PrEs as a prime example.

Please stop trying to place everyone into the same box. DnD is about building a character not about following a template. The only real way we can do that is with Multiclassing and Turbine has repeatedly made it harder and harder to make fun effective builds all in the name of helping out the Pure Class.

Aesop

[Fenrisulven6]

Well, a little sidetrack here, but IMO, Turn Undead is useless no matter how you look at it.

Yup. My clerics have to go in with Halt Undead and Web clickies. How sad is that?

[barakhiel]

disagree on many many levels.

mostly the belief that a level 20 well planned Multi Class should be LESS powerful than a striaght anything is ridiculous. If two characters are level 20 they should be just about as powerful.

Multiclass characters have been being penalized repeatedly in DDO. See Capstones and PrEs as a prime example.

Please stop trying to place everyone into the same box. DnD is about building a character not about following a template. The only real way we can do that is with Multiclassing and Turbine has repeatedly made it harder and harder to make fun effective builds all in the name of helping out the Pure Class.

Aesop

Unfortunately, the vast majority of mulitclassed characters are following a template. The most common one to watch is the 18 Cleric (or FvS)/ 2 Monk super-character which easily makes nearly all reflex saves and still has access to the most powerful Divine Spells. You can go ahead and invent your own character, but you will be one of the few multiclasses that does NOT follow a template.

[danzig138]

One step in the right direction would be removing stacking dodge effects

That seems to be one of the sacred cows of 3.5 they aren't willing to slaughter. Dodge bonuses stack in pnp, and I don't see them not stacking here anytime soon.

I think the problem is spell durations that last 1 minute per level (2 minutes with extend spell) being applied in real time when 1 minute in the PnP game is the equivalent of one set of attacks.

Dang, man, when was the last time you played D&D? In 3rd edition rules, a combat round is 6 seconds, not one minute like it used to be.

I started this thread to talk about the mechanics but also look.

Unfortunately, from your posts, it doesn't sound like you want to play D&D, which DDO at least pays lip service to trying to be like. For all of the things in this version I can't stand and really think should be altered, it is still pretty recognizable to me as spawn of the genre-in-its-own-right-game Dungeons and Dragons.

And for the one guy who said d20 system is supposed to be easy. . . heh heh. No, that wasn't really a design goal. Streamlined a bit and more comprehensive? Yes. Easy? No.

Personally, I want to see the stat blocks for creatures. I have ideas on what could be done to fix things, but those ideas assume things like the creatures are set up like in the books. I know when I attack, it sure doesn't feel like I"m using BAB as per the books. And it darned sure feels like things I'm trying to kill have more hit points than they should. I'd actually love to see all the rules of this game in a rulebook format so as to clearly see what is different and by how much.

So to fix things, the first thing I would attack is any hyper-inflation of stats. To monsters, PCs, items, spells, anything that needed it. Bring it more in line with the SRD. Mainly, I guess, I'd rebuild it from scratch to emulate the pnp game as much as possible with as few as necessary allowances for the real-time aspect.

Since that isn't going to happen, I'd take a look at Unearthed Arcana for some rules variants to implement as someone noted above. AC, ranged combat, and the like? These can all be fixed if the devs would choose to do so.

Concerning the appearance - I firmly believe there should be a system for customizing the appearance. However, I would not allow someone to take a suit of +5 adamatine plate of butt-kicking and skin it like a robe. They'd be limited to a broad selection of heavy plate skins. Medium armors would have their own skins, and robes, etc. I'd also like to see most of the plated armors redrawn. Some of them look like they were designed by people who've never seen even a picture of plate, or plate and mail, or armor.

But first, can you please, please stop paralyzed giant scorpions from chasing me halfway across the Vale? They're paralyzed for goodness sake!

[AestorTheKnight]

... There is a lot of multi-classes I want to try but because you have to wear robes and clothing, I don't want to play it - and that limits what I can play...

I feel exactly the same Hauteclaire. When ever I build a new character I also have in mind that characters appearance. Because to me the "concept" of the character, and the idea of his or her personality is what makes that character enjoyable to play in the game. And appearance is a big part of the character concept, that his or her appearance should reflect who or what that character is.

For too long we have been straightjacketed by Armour appearance in DDO. Its high time Turbine implemented a system to allow us to have our characters look how we want them to look.

[AestorTheKnight]

Concerning the appearance - I firmly believe there should be a system for customizing the appearance. However, I would not allow someone to take a suit of +5 adamatine plate of butt-kicking and skin it like a robe. They'd be limited to a broad selection of heavy plate skins.

I dont agree - how a character looks has absolutely no bearing on Gameplay or Balance at all. Players should be able to make their characters look exactly how they want to look.

There is no good reason to stop people useing any and all appearances they desire to make their character look how they like! Other than it contradicts some arbitrary notion that Full Plate should look like Full Plate and a Robe should look like a Robe. But at the end of the day, looks dont effect gameplay, so give people the choice! Cos thats fun and cool.

Why impose limits when they dont benefit the game in any way, and only serve to decrease the options available.

If a Player wants their Robe to look like a suit of Full Plate, or their Breastplate to look like a Splintmail, let them.
Can you give me one good reason why they shouldnt be allowed to do that?



(Danzig, your signature is completely untrue and quite frankly insulting and offensive to Turbine and DDO as a game. I would encourage you to rethink your sig.)