Armor issues that are just sad

[Quikster]

Quik...

Don't get upset...

Shes a cleric....she heals.... I know ...I know..thats not what clerics that you know do.. but mine..heal... she only has 362 HP, but she's only level 16/2 Cleric/Monk. Shes a min/max build... Everything went into Wis and Dex and the little I had left over went into her Con...she doesnt have a +45 HP Greensteel Item yet either......... please don't be upset that my cleric heals.... I'm truley very sorry to upset you about it...


Battlehawke

No need for sarcasm. The point was you entered a melee discussion. Glad you feel you know me and the people I run with though....

[Battlehawke]

Ok,

I'm going to go to work now, so you can Flame me now. I was being Sarcastic, and I must've missed the point, but I thought the OP was talking about AC and the diffeence between builds wearing armor and the fact that in order to get an UBER AC, that you had to build a toon that doesnt wear armor.... I do have a high AC build that does wear armor, but most of my builds that don't wear armor have a higher AC... oh..wait..i'm doing it again...this was a DPS thread.... was it?


Sorry, I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not being negative.......

Oh..and +1 Rep to you too Quik...for being so passionate!!! You are the man!!!

Battlehawke

[Quikster]

It shouldn't. But again, you're misreading me. That's not what I'm arguing.
I'm saying the difference between a DoS/SD and any other Paladin or Fighter PrE in terms of AC is VERY significant.

And this argument was essentially a counter-argument to your "Rogues are stellar at traps, Arcanes are stellar at firewalls" argument, as I was trying to show you that *any* Rogue PrE can be stellar at traps, and *any* Arcane PrE can be stellar at firewalls. But that's not the case with non-SDs/DoSs.

Ahh well. This is getting convoluted and misconstrued.
Time for a coffee

PS - Autolycus. Thanks for the offer, mate. It's the thought that counts

The arguement was that to specialize you have to invest in ap, feats, and gear slots. Why do you keep bringing it back to specific pres? You dont like the arguement, fine, but the fact remains that ap, feats, and gear slots have to be spent to specialize in anything in this game.


Yes the difference is significant in ac between pres, but so is the dps difference. Why arent we arguing for more dps for the defender lines?

If i want a high intimidate i have to give something up for it, if i want high dps, i have to give something up, and if I want high ac, i have to give somthing up.

Once agian, Im not claiming that the ac system is perfect, but people here are saying that monk=ac and its simply not true.

The Exploiter ranger starts with 15 str, maxes out at sub 600 hp's, starts with 14 wisdom (6 build points) and its self buffed ac is lower than my plate wearing fighters. Its intimidate is woefully subpar for tanking.

The exploiter is certainly a nice build, dont get me wrong, but a true tank it is not. Very few exploiters can reliably tank horoth on normal, much less on elite.

The defender line is for tanks specializing in :gasp: tanking.


My max wis/dex comment was a specific response to a specific post, it had nothing to do with the exploiter..

Look, I have both monk splashes, and tank builds, with an S as in more than one of each. I know exactly what benefits each gets. Saying you can splash monk and get good ac, is misleading. Yes monk splashes can get solid ac, but it comes at a cost. Saying anything different is flat out false.

[Quikster]

Ok,

I'm going to go to work now, so you can Flame me now. I was being Sarcastic, and I must've missed the point, but I thought the OP was talking about AC and the diffeence between builds wearing armor and the fact that in order to get an UBER AC, that you had to build a toon that doesnt wear armor.... I do have a high AC build that does wear armor, but most of my builds that don't wear armor have a higher AC... oh..wait..i'm doing it again...this was a DPS thread.... was it?


Sorry, I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not being negative.......

Oh..and +1 Rep to you too Quik...for being so passionate!!! You are the man!!!

Battlehawke

Not flaming anybody. Having discussions with people. Ive enjoyed it, and it has taken my mind of some serious RL issues going on.

Yes im passionate about people misleading others.

[Battlehawke]

I wasn't arguing with you.... I was being comical in my first comment....and you decided to be a know it all... I was just being funny man..get a grip..settle down.... I'm sorry.... check back... I was being sarcastic and funny.....

and just for the record.... You are WRONG...you can have a high ac, high intimidate, high hps, high saves and high dps.... check out the Hurtlocker.... oh.... man...there are so many good builds out there.... ok..really..i'm off to work.. have a great day..we'll see you all in a few days.... good luck...and happy hunting....

[JohnWarlock]

I don't know I guess I might be gimped or my pally might be gimped, but I seriously can't find a way to raise his AC to be significant and still have other items to make his DPS significant. Then again maybe people are only focusing on one aspect of the build instead of an entire build.

For Example:

Goggles: Sandstorm Glasses
Helmet: Minos Legens
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Trinket: Blood Stone
Cloak: Charisma +6
Belt: Proof against Poison belt of Greater False Life
Ring: Wisdom +6
Ring: Feather Falling
Boots: Boots of the Innocent
Gloves: Spectral Gloves
Armor: Dragontouched Armor: +6 Strength, +20 Hps, +3 Dex Skills (need to change)
Bracers: Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Bracers of Air

now my question is, do I drop being able to cast spells since I don't have high base wisdom to equip prot +5? and Chattering Ring? Seal of the earth? Should I sacrifice my charisma to have +5 AC? Loose 300 Mana, +6 to my umd and other charisma skills, to be able to have +2 AC?

What I'm trying to say is, sadly there is a lot of stuff to equip and not enough space to equip on certain characters. I do believe it might be easier for Fighters and Barbarians, since they don't need as many stat items as other characters.

What I really would love to see is the following:

Like someone previously suggested, lets lag the servers more with one more calculation for PCs which would be base Armor DR %s.

Give a 5% DR bonus per +1 in armor, and a % based on armor type.

Light Armor 5%
Medium Armor 10%
Heavy Armor 15%

all this before adding other modifiers like Mithral:

So for example a +5 Mithral Fullplate

+5 x 5% = 25%
Full plate being heavy once + 15%

it would still count as a medium armor but it would give you 40% DR
like someone stated it wouldn't be over balancing and instead of getting hit for 20 points of damage at high level quests you could get
20 x 40% = 8
20-8 = 12 damage, not a huge amount of damage reduce, not too over powering and it doesn't matter if your friendly AC 80 tank besides you doesn't get hit, at least you don't get his as hard. That could make the game more easier for solo play characters and certainly much easier on healers when their party isn't taking obscene amounts of damage.

Since it's only a % damage reduction, it would apply after all other reductions took place. Yes it would make FvS even stronger, but if a mob still by passes their DR then they do get something out of it. I mean since we are getting nerfed all over the place why not give characters some love out there.

That would still allow things like Adamantine to give their DRs although honestly when mobs are hitting you for 30-40 points of damage I don't see how 3/adamantine is much help, but then again 30 points - 3 = 27 x 40% 10.8 = 27- 10 = 17 points of damage only, a little more friendly towards characters.

Now I will have to chime in on the real relevance of this post, can't we make armor customization for the look of the armors? Honestly, the whole oh look we're in a raid and everyone is wearing the same robes/docents/dragontouched look is simply so un D&D like. Sure when you're playing a solo game, any armor can be unique, but when you're in an MMO it's sad to see everyone else looking like you.

I love what they did with the bunny helm and other helmets. The Showhelmet on/off but can't we do more to armors and helmets? Can't my Minos be cool? Can't my paladin wear a golden looking armor as he is Mr. Goody two shoes? or a barbarian wear full spike intimidating armor? and why are breastplates so **** awful looking? It's like they didn't want people to wear them, lol

Yes it would be difficult to change the look of armor and it would take so much coding and yadda yadda yadda, but seriously it doesn't take too much coding and time to go making the marketplace and the houses pretty? Like someone stated put tinkering tokens for sale for turbine points, let me take it to an in house armor smith and yes I can finally have cool looking armor, I want this to look like that armor and in these colors. Unless there is something against having guilds color code themselves to stand out.

Hopefully stuff like this would make itself into the game, or maybe even better ideas that make the game more fun.

[Quikster]

I wasn't arguing with you.... I was being comical in my first comment....and you decided to be a know it all... I was just being funny man..get a grip..settle down.... I'm sorry.... check back... I was being sarcastic and funny.....

and just for the record.... You are WRONG...you can have a high ac, high intimidate, high hps, high saves and high dps.... check out the Hurtlocker.... oh.... man...there are so many good builds out there.... ok..really..i'm off to work.. have a great day..we'll see you all in a few days.... good luck...and happy hunting....

Who said I was upset with you? You come into a discussion with some BS about having high ac on your cleric. I refuted it.


Hurtlocker. Not a tank. Good build yes, IIRC decent hp's, decent dps so long as it doesnt have agro, very average intimidate, good saves. Does that about sum it up? I guess I could go look, but im a know it all so I dont really need to.

Thanks for trying to prove me wrong, next time maybe you can come up with a meaningful discussion to prove me wrong other than sarcasm and name dropping.

[Quikster]

I don't know I guess I might be gimped or my pally might be gimped, but I seriously can't find a way to raise his AC to be significant and still have other items to make his DPS significant. Then again maybe people are only focusing on one aspect of the build instead of an entire build.

For Example:

Goggles: Sandstorm Glasses
Helmet: Minos Legens
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Trinket: Blood Stone
Cloak: Charisma +6
Belt: Proof against Poison belt of Greater False Life
Ring: Wisdom +6
Ring: Feather Falling
Boots: Boots of the Innocent
Gloves: Spectral Gloves
Armor: Dragontouched Armor: +6 Strength, +20 Hps, +3 Dex Skills (need to change)
Bracers: Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Bracers of Air

now my question is, do I drop being able to cast spells since I don't have high base wisdom to equip prot +5? and Chattering Ring? Seal of the earth? Should I sacrifice my charisma to have +5 AC? Loose 300 Mana, +6 to my umd and other charisma skills, to be able to have +2 AC?

What I'm trying to say is, sadly there is a lot of stuff to equip and not enough space to equip on certain characters. I do believe it might be easier for Fighters and Barbarians, since they don't need as many stat items as other characters.

What I really would love to see is the following:

Like someone previously suggested, lets lag the servers more with one more calculation for PCs which would be base Armor DR %s.

Give a 5% DR bonus per +1 in armor, and a % based on armor type.

Light Armor 5%
Medium Armor 10%
Heavy Armor 15%

all this before adding other modifiers like Mithral:

So for example a +5 Mithral Fullplate

+5 x 5% = 25%
Full plate being heavy once + 15%

it would still count as a medium armor but it would give you 40% DR
like someone stated it wouldn't be over balancing and instead of getting hit for 20 points of damage at high level quests you could get
20 x 40% = 8
20-8 = 12 damage, not a huge amount of damage reduce, not too over powering and it doesn't matter if your friendly AC 80 tank besides you doesn't get hit, at least you don't get his as hard. That could make the game more easier for solo play characters and certainly much easier on healers when their party isn't taking obscene amounts of damage.

Since it's only a % damage reduction, it would apply after all other reductions took place. Yes it would make FvS even stronger, but if a mob still by passes their DR then they do get something out of it. I mean since we are getting nerfed all over the place why not give characters some love out there.

That would still allow things like Adamantine to give their DRs although honestly when mobs are hitting you for 30-40 points of damage I don't see how 3/adamantine is much help, but then again 30 points - 3 = 27 x 40% 10.8 = 27- 10 = 17 points of damage only, a little more friendly towards characters.

Now I will have to chime in on the real relevance of this post, can't we make armor customization for the look of the armors? Honestly, the whole oh look we're in a raid and everyone is wearing the same robes/docents/dragontouched look is simply so un D&D like. Sure when you're playing a solo game, any armor can be unique, but when you're in an MMO it's sad to see everyone else looking like you.

I love what they did with the bunny helm and other helmets. The Showhelmet on/off but can't we do more to armors and helmets? Can't my Minos be cool? Can't my paladin wear a golden looking armor as he is Mr. Goody two shoes? or a barbarian wear full spike intimidating armor? and why are breastplates so **** awful looking? It's like they didn't want people to wear them, lol

Yes it would be difficult to change the look of armor and it would take so much coding and yadda yadda yadda, but seriously it doesn't take too much coding and time to go making the marketplace and the houses pretty? Like someone stated put tinkering tokens for sale for turbine points, let me take it to an in house armor smith and yes I can finally have cool looking armor, I want this to look like that armor and in these colors. Unless there is something against having guilds color code themselves to stand out.

Hopefully stuff like this would make itself into the game, or maybe even better ideas that make the game more fun.

Not sure on your stats/feats/enhancements, but you have no gear slots devoted to ac. Thats a must if you want to get meaningfull ac.

Yes different armor looks would be awesome, along with cloaks, and boots. We have been asking for a very long time, and IIRC there was a blurb in a recent interview about something like that comming in a future update.

[Aerendil]

The arguement was that to specialize you have to invest in ap, feats, and gear slots. Why do you keep bringing it back to specific pres? You dont like the arguement, fine, but the fact remains that ap, feats, and gear slots have to be spent to specialize in anything in this game.

I keep bringing it back to specific PrEs because you're the one arguing that you have to make sacrifices / choices, but *any* wizard can have decent firewalls with the right AP / feats / gear slots. PrEs play no factor in this. You can have the exact same firewalls capable from a pure Wizard as from a Pale Master.
Same with rogues and trapskills.
My argument (for the 4th time now?) is that DoS/SD lock you out of that option, giving you 11 max AC less (and realistically far less than that as you're most likely to go THF or TWF, not S&B as a non-SD/DoS). It's very different.
It's the same reason why Dark monks are upset right now that if they want to use shortswords, they HAVE to take Ninja Spy. Light side monks can't access it.
It's an argument for having choices.

Yes the difference is significant in ac between pres, but so is the dps difference. Why arent we arguing for more dps for the defender lines?

We have been in the past, but as of U5 I'd say S&B is getting a boost with D.Axe / B. Swords getting glancing blows, and THF/TWF getting mildly nerfed.

Once agian, Im not claiming that the ac system is perfect, but people here are saying that monk=ac and its simply not true.

Monk does = AC, generally. And it's not just an issue of Monks - it's the way the equipment system is designed.
AC 8 bracers + Icy (dodge+4) + dex/wis tends to outweigh any full plate + shield + chaosgardes + max dex boost combo, except perhaps the SD/DoS lines.

Again, as I've argued, the monk or monk splash is only limited as far as their dex/wis can go.
The plate-wearing armour is very much limited by max dex boost.

The scales are tipping back towards armour, though, especially with some epic items... and we'll have to wait to see if AC once again becomes useful in epic. /shrug.

The Exploiter ranger starts with 15 str, maxes out at sub 600 hp's, starts with 14 wisdom (6 build points) and its self buffed ac is lower than my plate wearing fighters. Its intimidate is woefully subpar for tanking.

The exploiter is certainly a nice build, dont get me wrong, but a true tank it is not. Very few exploiters can reliably tank horoth on normal, much less on elite.

The defender line is for tanks specializing in :gasp: tanking.

/sigh. The point is that the Exploiter can reach 60-70 AC without giving up any dps.
The tank specialized PrEs have to specialize in :gasp: tanking, in order to achieve AC that outperforms Monks and Exploiters, but in doing so gives up dps.
But again, that's another argument... which while relevant, would probably take this to a 20 page thread

Look, I have both monk splashes, and tank builds, with an S as in more than one of each. I know exactly what benefits each gets. Saying you can splash monk and get good ac, is misleading. Yes monk splashes can get solid ac, but it comes at a cost. Saying anything different is flat out false.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
I think switching to pyjamas and splashing Monk makes for a very quick, and easy, AC boost for a vast majority of classes.
Rogues can not achieve a meaningful AC in armour, nor can Rangers. Splash Monk and wear pyjamas? Suddenly, they're looking at AC of 60-70.
Same with Paladins - show me a non-DoS Paladin that can reach 60+ AC and I'll be shocked.
But a Paladin/Monk TWF combo could probably hit 60+ with the typical end-game gear most pyjama folk have.

/shrug.
I'm not saying the have the advantage over plate users in all aspects. But the way I see it, for AC, it's DoS/SD > Monks and Monk splashes >> non-DoS/SD paladins/fighters >> all other armoured folk.

[Quikster]

I don't disagre with your final statement.

Getting good ac requires a sacrifice, even on monk splashes. Just because its a sacrifice many are willing to make, its still a sacrifice.

I personally don't want to see every class able to obtain top notch ac. As it stands withthe right feats and gear every class can obtain meaninful ac, the question is do they want to make the sacrifice to do it? No in most cases.

A monk/splash that doesn't invest in dex or wis gains little ac by splashing monk.

Ir is an armor slot that basically gains nothing but +4 dodge. Armor bracers are expensive and lock out hound bracers. You still need a protection slot, a dex slot, a wis slot, str slot, con/gfl slot, seeker slot, holyburst slot. Then you need to find a place for all you exceptional bonuses.

Top ac requires a ton of gear and a big dps sacrifice for monks/monk splashes, then they still usually end up with low hitpoints.

Its just not as simple as monk/splash = high ac as you make it out to be.

Is the ac system messed up? Yes. But monk class isn't the problem. A monk with an insanely high ac is a severly limited character imo.

[Quikster]

10 Dex
10 wis
8 bracer
4 IR
1 alchemical
33 ac

15 dt
4 dex
2 chaos
9 shield
2 alchemical

32
add the highest ac armor available
(admittedly hard to get)

16 armor
7 dex
2 chaos
9 shield
2 alchemical

36

non dwarf fighter.

This is with a shield however, but a dex/wis monk isn't going to have stellar dps either. Item slots also some into play, robe wearer will still need +5 pro somewhere.

for a defender this would be higher, and I think the comparison more apropriate, as the monk has chosen to specialize in ac, the fighter should be allowed to do the same.

Fighter could hold agro with intimidate much better then the dex/wis monk, which would tip the scales for the fighter in a big way due to blocking dr and a few extra points in ac for non defenders, +5 ac for defenders.

I don't see it being as large of a difference as you make it out to be. Add 5 to the monk and an all dex/wis monk is still behind the tank hiding behind the shield, far ahead of the twf non defender tank, and far behind the twf defender.

[Pehtis]

Since AC in this game is all about not being hit, it makes a certain sense in the mind that those without armor will have a higher probability of dodging an attack. This is reinforced with Dex advantages and now with additonal Wisdom modifiers for Monk splash. Conceptionally being in full plate armor ought to make you clunky and more likely to be hit, right.

What is needed and has been mentioned is greater DR modifiers given to the wearing of these armors. Add to that DR reductions (like Barbs) for the wearing of these armors by fighters (because they have mastered extra DR for it). The result, more useful armor that has little to do with AC but is equally effective from DR perspective.

Since Monk splash benefits provide significant benefits I think these benefits should kick in at say Monk level 9. Sure it will make monks a little more vulnerable during these early levels but let's face it a robed wizard can survive until then without the BAB bonuses Monks get. Also I am told Monk have ripper combat abilities so it shouldn't be a fuss. The result, Monk has earned the right to it's AC benefits. Just moved the goal posts a little. Multiple builds will need to invest more into Monk levels to get the AC benefit.

An alternative is to insert default penalty that removes Wisdom modifier to AC when splashing Monk with any other Class when Monk level is less than ANY other Class being splashed with.

All this will do is remove pyjama AC from other Classes (somewhat any way) other than the Monk.

Now those plate wearing melee's can feel comfortable that their AC is not lower than too many exploited builds. Just brace yourself to the screams from players with such builds or Monk in general.

In this way DDO store wins because more players get cra.ppy AC resulting in more healing requirements. Just possibly means purchasing of various pot/scroll bundles. That is the point is it not for not being able to register useful AC against trash mobs at mid to higher levels.

BTW - definitely give an option to customize the armors to look cooler.

[Aerendil]

Agreed. And for the record, I'm not intending my argument to sound like "splash Monk for a free, instant +40 AC!".
I'm getting the impression that's how you're interpreting it, but that's far from the truth and I wouldn't argue that's the case.

I guess if I had to narrow down my issue with armour, it's the issue of ever-inflating stats vs. the limitations of max dex boost on armour.

As it is currently only Fighters, Dwarves (for some reason) and SD/DoS have the capacity to extend that max dex boost to make heavy armour worthwhile.

But for the average joe who's either not a fighter, dwarf, or SD/DoS but wears heavy armour (i.e. a cleric, or a non-Dos Paladin)? That +1 on DT plate, or +3 on mithril full plate, is awful limiting, and as a result they very often turn to Icy + ac8 bracers + dex/wis.
With no means of enlarging the MDB, a plate-wearing Paladin would achieve a higher AC by wearing pyjamas, even without a Monk splash, if their dex is higher than 16. Which isn't overly difficult to do.

Which is where my argument stems from, essentially. It forces people who want a meaningful AC to go Fighter, Dwarf, or SD / DoS PrEs. Or in many cases, a combination of the above (i.e. Dwarven DoS; or a Fighter/SD).
A Human Paladin KoTC is buggered, no matter how many gear/feats/APs he puts towards improving his heavy armour. He'll always be a good 11+ AC behind a DoS, and if he goes TWF we're talking more like 20 AC. Which is a big discrepency IMO.

Anyways, I'm off. Definitely an engaging argument today, Quickster - cheers.

*edit* - PS, on your Monk ac above, don't forget CE, centered bonuses (+5 AC at 20), etc. And they also get evasion...

[grodon9999]

/sigh. The point is that the Exploiter can reach 60-70 AC without giving up any dps.

That is not true, "Exploiter" rangers are NOT top tier DPS. Barbs, fighters, and Pallys (against EO) have us beat, as do STR-based rogues. Rangers can get very good AC with GOOD DPS, not tops and that is a sacrifice when building a character. A fighter will also have 100+ more HP with equal gear.

[Alabore]

Since AC in this game is all about not being hit, it makes a certain sense in the mind that those without armor will have a higher probability of dodging an attack.

...

What is needed and has been mentioned is greater DR modifiers given to the wearing of these armors. Add to that DR reductions (like Barbs) for the wearing of these armors by fighters (because they have mastered extra DR for it). The result, more useful armor that has little to do with AC but is equally effective from DR perspective.

...

BTW - definitely give an option to customize the armors to look cooler.

Quoted and seconded.

AC always was the weakest point with AD&D since 1st ed.
It was a simplistic mechanic to keep number-crunching simple.
Other systems - GURPS, MERP, Arkania, and so on - tried addressing the issue with the DDO equivalent of DR and Fortification.

Since DDO is deviating from DnD canon anyway, they could draw from Rule Variations for ideas.
As mentioned before, DDO is pushing DnD rules into super-hero territory.
Some pnp players retire their characters before they turn god-like, so they never really face the issue of inflated stats and modifiers.
Other players tweak their games with house rules so the plate wielder will still have some situational advantage over his bath-robe wearing colleagues.

A tweak to DR, Fortification, AC and Energy Resistance might address some of the above issues.

...

About "nerfing" monks, while you do have a point there - and few pnp DMs would allow any player to exploit monk perks to create a "super" character - in DDO monk IS a paid class.
I doubt they would "nerf" it, considering user base reactions.
Personally, as a pnp and NWN player, I question the whole notion of making a core class a paid feature.
But that's for another thread...

...

Ceterum censeo... I concur, please give us armour customisation.

[Aerendil]

That is not true, "Exploiter" rangers are NOT top tier DPS. Barbs, fighters, and Pallys (against EO) have us beat, as do STR-based rogues. Rangers can get very good AC with GOOD DPS, not tops and that is a sacrifice when building a character. A fighter will also have 100+ more HP with equal gear.

Umm, at no point did I say Exploiters were top tier dps...

I simply said that they don't need to give up dps to achieve a meaningful AC. i.e. can dual-wield, still get their FE bonuses, but have a 60ish AC.
With tanks, they do. Or at least they did.... we'll see what S&B + B.Sword / D.Axe is like in U5.

[Arcticwarrior]

I believe the definition of AC is how easily you can dodge opponents. Heavy armor is.... well... HEAVY. if you wear something like cloth it means light and allows more dexterous stats to reveal themselves, such as AC. however I think armor should increase in DR the heavier they get, ex. DR -/10 for heavy. at least then it may be more balanced. and if thats not enough they can ncrease armor DR for more magical sets of armor, such as Dragontouched (DR -/25 for heavy or what ever).

[Hauteclaire]

I just want to be able to change the graphic. It looks wrong to have robes on or clothing when swinging swords etc. Should be optional at least. As I said in one of my other posts all the classic warrior stuff shows them in armor or even something like Aragorn had at the end of the 3rd film or even Helm's Deep. For clothing something like you see in Assassin's Creed 2. I just am sick and freaking intensely tired of these multi builds wearing robes and clothing and seeing it. I hate how it looks. Looks to matter to me for the character I have to stare at. I do stand by there being balance issues and common sense associated with it too, but for now I just want to be able to alter the look, or pick from armor available (the actual graphic) and apply that to my characters appearance, even if I am wearing something with boring robes/cloth stats. I like the classic warrior wearing armor for a reason.

So while it is a "makes no sense" technically issue, it is all a visual one too. If they can't work out the numbers, give us a the graphical change for now. That's all I ask,

Oh and if you want to dodge around let us pick something we want to wear that at least fits the base of a "warrior" class if we want. Not a bathrobe or hammer pants. It can be "robes" but still look right for the personality of the class.

[Quikster]

Umm, at no point did I say Exploiters were top tier dps...

I simply said that they don't need to give up dps to achieve a meaningful AC. i.e. can dual-wield, still get their FE bonuses, but have a 60ish AC.
With tanks, they do. Or at least they did.... we'll see what S&B + B.Sword / D.Axe is like in U5.

Tanks havent since the defender lines were introduced. Not trying to bring this back to our pre discussion, just clarifying that tanks can dual wield and get high ac if they are defender

[Alabore]

I
So while it is a "makes no sense" technically issue, it is all a visual one too. If they can't work out the numbers, give us a the graphical change for now. That's all I ask,
...
Oh and if you want to dodge around let us pick something we want to wear that at least fits the base of a "warrior" class if we want. Not a bathrobe or hammer pants. It can be "robes" but still look right for the personality of the class.

Quoted, seconded, agreed.

This *is* an issue.

In single-player games we usually have options to customise the main avatar's looks.
Be it in-built feature, unlocking new characters after beating the game, or plain brute force hex-editing of saved games.
Some players love playing with a customised avatar - even if nobody else will get to see their char.
Even very basic multi-player games allowed players to pick avatar colours, so you could tell red wizard from blue wizard.
The whole DnD franchise offered a wide range of options, so players didn't have to play the very same character as their pals.

Other players mentioned it in other threads: DDO could really use some customisation feature.
For new players it would be a way to better connect with their character, bond with the game, stay and pay for it.

Sharper looks might broaden audience and potential customer base.
New players might have little previous experience with c-rpg, but they are well familiar with console games; you fight the boss, you unlock a new outfit.
It would be a visual - and hence more effective - reward for learning the game.

Likewise, for vet players it would be something different from the usual set of horned helm and cyan wraps.
Even my lvl 4 looks sharper than some lvl 20 I've met.
Vets should have something nice to show, for all those hours spent playing - and paying - and unlocking unique outfits would be an interesting feature for somebody who has already unlocked everything else the game had to offer.

Also, I would suggest making the hauberk under-mesh available for cloth armour too.
Kundarak wardens and Silver Flame cleric wear it; players only get it with a couple chain-shirt models.
It would look nice with some robe textures too - especially with some backback and pouches over-meshes - and give cloth armour some extra mileage, without looking more of the same bathrobes and hammer pants.

On a related note, I would also suggest changing stats for scale mail, banded mail and so on, so they stay viable beyond Korthos and players won't consider them vendor trash as soon as they hit Stormreach.
More viable armour types mean more varied looks; some of my characters wear elven chain, even if it is considered sub-optimal, because I like the way most suits look.

This is not *just* a visual issue.
It is *also* a visual issue.
It does have an impact on gaming experience, at least for some players.