Armor issues that are just sad

[jwdaniels]

The other numbers problem in translating from PnP to DDO is that ability scores (for example, Dexterity) don't usually go past the 20s or 30s, so at most you're looking at the same AC bonus from your Dexterity as from your heavy armor. Again, anything above +6 or so is rare in PnP, but by level 10 you can easily have a score of 28 in an abilty.

[Emili]

I fully understand the concept of using armor masteries. The point is it still has to be bought. A dwarf can get the same mdb for cheaper (8 instead of 12 ap) But this discussion isnt limited to fighters. Humans can spend their points to get more healing amp then anyone else, wf'd more hate or more pa enhancements then anyone else....see where this is going?

Yes... so your human spends 12 ap and your dwarf spends 12 ap the human thus lowers ac by two to pick up 10% more healing amp and is -2 ac from that of the dwarf but wait... to actually make 10% healing amp worth such must itemize (less ac gear) to actually make 121hp (110 without 10% amp) scrolled heal into something more substantial... Humans dump ac or dps etc... for healing amp is the normal result.

I used to run my human at 187% healing amp ... the AC wa down by 9, the dps however was down by 80 and I could not hold the agro I wished to by hate alone... intimidate was less then what I wished to rely on in such instance although I still use such on occasion - I eventually disliked the DPS output enough to swing back the other way and tappered her amp off at 50% - yet to only use such situationally as other in game items hold much more importance most the time.

Much like wf dump it for PA enhancements .... my point however are the gains are not as high a % in those areas. Easy to heal does not neccessarily mean healed so much less often, likewise 38 more damage output in ten swings does not always equate to less resources used either... the % of each are not exactly tradable in relivance.

... and you are correct outside fighter and or pally classes armour means little, but that only is due to the fact that fighter, pally and dwarf enhance armour while other classes may not.

[Aerendil]

The other numbers problem in translating from PnP to DDO is that ability scores (for example, Dexterity) don't usually go past the 20s or 30s, so at most you're looking at the same AC bonus from your Dexterity as from your heavy armor. Again, anything above +6 or so is rare in PnP, but by level 10 you can easily have a score of 28 in an abilty.

Yep, and this was something I argued a long time ago.
Some examples:

Full plate: the heaviest of armours. Offers 8 AC, but only 1 max dex. You simply can't move very well in this bad boy, but it offers plenty of protection.

Padded armour: the lightest of armours. Offers a mere 1 AC, but with a max dex of 8. So essentially it offers very little protection, but the most agile/dextrous/nimble/however-you-want-to-look-at-it person could achieve a similar protection to that of full plate.
It all balanced out.

Or, rather, it was *meant* to balance out. Everyone was supposed to be able to achieve good AC, and the armour you wore was mostly dependant on your character's dexterity.
Then as 3.0/3.5 introduced more and more rulebooks, things got out of whack, and that's where (as mentioned earlier) you started seeing crazy stats, and crazy class/PrC combinations allowing for insane ACs and such. i.e. mudflation destroyed the balance.

The same has happened to DDO.
We started with +1 tomes, and max +6 items. Now we're into +4 tomes, +7 items, exceptional bonuses, yugo pots, and so on and so on. The stats just keep getting higher and higher.

So while the pajama'ed person's AC can just keep rising as their DEX (and WIS if /Monk) goes up, the armoured person is somewhat limited based on the max dex boost of their armour.
Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys offered boosts to full plate to help balance that out, but as I've been arguing only those who take those PrEs get those benefits.
The other plate tanks are left behind.

Turbine eventually threw the tanks a bone with DT plate, but the end result was that it was very little improvement over mithril full plate for the average person. 15 (+1) vs. 13 (+3) is the same, unless you start throwing on fighter armour mastery, dwarven armour mastery, SD/DoS heavy armour dex boosts, and so on to reach a max dex boost that your Dex score can't fill out.
But generally speaking, armour is still far more limiting than wearing no armour. Which is skewed.
They'll introduce weapons that can do 500 dmg lightning strikes, or allow for stats to go past 40 in some cases, but they won't introduce a base 20 AC (+1) super-armour for the pure tanks :/

[Quikster]

So the base 12 Wisdom + 3 tome + 7 item character resulting in an endgame wis of 22 (+6 to AC) with little effort doesn't qualify as instant AC the second I splash Monk and wear pajamas?

Hmm, must have missed that memo.

Also, you're making an argument based on class roles (i.e. Rogue = stellar trapsmithing. Which also isn't true - a Ranger or Wizard with a Rogue splash can be just as good), whereas I'm arguing that the armoured AC tank is pigeonholed into 1 of 2 PrEs (one for Paladin, one for Fighter). Apples and oranges. ANY Rogue character can have good trapsmithing, not just the Mechanics; ANY Wizard can have decent Firewalls, not just the Evocation-specialized ones; ANY cleric or FvS can have excellent heals, not just the healbots.

But can ANY fighter have stellar AC in plate? No. They can't.

Right. You missed the memo that a +3 tome, an epic item, and a minimum of 4 build points are not instant. Sorry.

Stellar trapsmithing requires either a huge sacrifice in areas, or going mechanic. Its not my fault the devs nerfed epic traps so that stellar trapsmithing skills were no longer needed in game, but the fact remains that mechanics can get the highest trap skills.

The point i was making is there are sacrifices to be made. Not any wizard can have good firewalls (evo spec'd? since when does that do anything to a firewall?) he has to invest enhancement points, feats, and gear slots to have a good firewall. Basically the same exact thing a fp with good ac has to do.

Same thing with a cleric. To get the best heals, he has to spend ap, feats and gear slots on it.

How is this any different from what a fighter or paly has to spend to get top notch ac?


Show me a monk splash that can run at 85 ac raid buffed no boosts with PA on, be at 700+ hp, and 40+ strength and you may have an arguement.


20 kensai fighter

10 base
15 dt
4 dex
1 dodge
5 ce
5 protection
4 insight
9 Tower shield
2 chaosguarde
2 alchemical
____________
57 stanced (costs 2 feats 1 raid item)

5 ranger bark
4 bard song
2 cleric recitation
4 paly aura
____________
67 raid buffed (easy raid buffs)

not bad for very little investment

add a few things

+3 chattering ring
+2 for epic armor
+1 for epic ring
_________________
73 epic raid buffed ac

which can go up with the right buffs as well

+2 for dos paly
+3 halfling
__________________
78 ac

Thats a dps non defender with stellar gear and all the buffs. Adding defender adds +7 ac with no more investment, if you want to invest more dex then you can get 2 more ac, if you want to block you get a few more as well.

How is this unbalanced. A defender gets 7 more ac off the top. Kensai gets +4 str with power surge vs defender stance and +1 crit range.

Drop the shield and pu twd and your still at 70 ac. 70 ac while getting all the kensai enhancements, 3 feats, a couple points in dex, and 3 points for int along with a couple +2 tomes.

Does a defender get more ac? Absolutely. Is there any reason they shouldnt?

[Gunga]

Yep, and this was something I argued a long time ago.
Some examples:

Full plate: the heaviest of armours. Offers 8 AC, but only 1 max dex. You simply can't move very well in this bad boy, but it offers plenty of protection.

Padded armour: the lightest of armours. Offers a mere 1 AC, but with a max dex of 8. So essentially it offers very little protection, but the most agile/dextrous/nimble/however-you-want-to-look-at-it person could achieve a similar protection to that of full plate.
It all balanced out.

Or, rather, it was *meant* to balance out. Everyone was supposed to be able to achieve good AC, and the armour you wore was mostly dependant on your character's dexterity.
Then as 3.0/3.5 introduced more and more rulebooks, things got out of whack, and that's where (as mentioned earlier) you started seeing crazy stats, and crazy class/PrC combinations allowing for insane ACs and such. i.e. mudflation destroyed the balance.

The same has happened to DDO.
We started with +1 tomes, and max +6 items. Now we're into +4 tomes, +7 items, exceptional bonuses, yugo pots, and so on and so on. The stats just keep getting higher and higher.

So while the pajama'ed person's AC can just keep rising as their DEX (and WIS if /Monk) goes up, the armoured person is somewhat limited based on the max dex boost of their armour.
Turbine eventually threw the tanks a bone with DT plate, but the end result was that it was very little improvement over mithril full plate for the average person. 15 (+1) vs. 13 (+3) is the same, unless you start throwing on fighter armour mastery, dwarven armour mastery, SD/DoS heavy armour dex boosts, and so on to reach a max dex boost that your Dex score can't fill out.
But generally speaking, armour is still far more limiting than wearing no armour. Which is skewed.
They'll introduce weapons that can do 500 dmg lightning strikes, or allow for stats to go past 40 in some cases, but they won't introduce a base 20 AC (+1) super-armour for the pure tanks :/

I like this analysis.

I'd like to add thatthey've started to even the difference between no armor and armor at end game with PrE Armor Skill bonuses. I just don't think they've done enough yet.

A maxed out Tank at endgame should be the hardest toon for a bad guy to DAMAGE. And that is where AC falls short...you are either hit, or you are not.

[Quikster]

Yep, and this was something I argued a long time ago.
Some examples:

Full plate: the heaviest of armours. Offers 8 AC, but only 1 max dex. You simply can't move very well in this bad boy, but it offers plenty of protection.

Padded armour: the lightest of armours. Offers a mere 1 AC, but with a max dex of 8. So essentially it offers very little protection, but the most agile/dextrous/nimble/however-you-want-to-look-at-it person could achieve a similar protection to that of full plate.
It all balanced out.

Or, rather, it was *meant* to balance out. Everyone was supposed to be able to achieve good AC, and the armour you wore was mostly dependant on your character's dexterity.
Then as 3.0/3.5 introduced more and more rulebooks, things got out of whack, and that's where (as mentioned earlier) you started seeing crazy stats, and crazy class/PrC combinations allowing for insane ACs and such. i.e. mudflation destroyed the balance.

The same has happened to DDO.
We started with +1 tomes, and max +6 items. Now we're into +4 tomes, +7 items, exceptional bonuses, yugo pots, and so on and so on. The stats just keep getting higher and higher.

So while the pajama'ed person's AC can just keep rising as their DEX (and WIS if /Monk) goes up, the armoured person is somewhat limited based on the max dex boost of their armour.
Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys offered boosts to full plate to help balance that out, but as I've been arguing only those who take those PrEs get those benefits.
The other plate tanks are left behind.

Turbine eventually threw the tanks a bone with DT plate, but the end result was that it was very little improvement over mithril full plate for the average person. 15 (+1) vs. 13 (+3) is the same, unless you start throwing on fighter armour mastery, dwarven armour mastery, SD/DoS heavy armour dex boosts, and so on to reach a max dex boost that your Dex score can't fill out.
But generally speaking, armour is still far more limiting than wearing no armour. Which is skewed.
They'll introduce weapons that can do 500 dmg lightning strikes, or allow for stats to go past 40 in some cases, but they won't introduce a base 20 AC (+1) super-armour for the pure tanks :/

They have an armor very close to that ( within 1 with dex ) 16 + 4 possible.

[Quikster]

I like this analysis.

I'd like to add thatthey've started to even the difference between no armor and armor at end game with PrE Armor Skill bonuses. I just don't think they've done enough yet.

A maxed out Tank at endgame should be the hardest toon for a bad guy to DAMAGE. And that is where AC falls short...you are either hit, or you are not.

I agree that there is some to be desired. And never once have I stated that ac is not whacked in this game. I just dont like to see people make statements like, "All you need is a monk splash for stellar ac." That is simply not true.

I do like the suggestions ive seen of granting a percentage of stacking dr. That would be cool.

[Phaelen]

They Should Remove The Sword From The Logo Of This Game And Put In Sewing Machine At This Point, As It Should Be The Choice Weapon For A Robe/hammer Pants Wearing Dual Weapon User.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Win!

[Aerendil]

Quickster:

Ok, take a +2 tome and +6 item instead of +3/+7. total difference of *1* AC. You're being pedantic.

As for the firewall, trapsmithing, etc. arguments, my point is that ANY Rogue or Wizard can get those enhancements.

That's not the case with Fighters/Paladins.
Of the 2 classes and the 6 total PrEs, only 2 of the 6 look to offer boosts to heavy/medium armour.
A Kensai, KoTC, HoTD, and presumably PDK (if/when it gets released), can't get the extra bonuses, which *are* significant.
A Stalwart has +3 AC just from tier 3 of the PrE; +2 MDB in heavy armour; and a further +2 AC just from the ToD set. That's 7 AC over the most AC-oriented Kensai. That's pretty significant. Add in defensive stance for another +4 AC, and we're now at 11 AC difference.

Also, you're using a S&B Kensai as an example? Really? And even as S&B, he manages a paltry self-buffed AC of only 57?
That's "good" AC, don't get me wrong. But by no means "stellar".
A similarly equipped Stalwart Defender would be at a self-buffed AC of almost 70...

Just sayin'.

[Battlehawke]

Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

[Quikster]

Quickster:

Ok, take a +2 tome and +6 item instead of +3/+7. total difference of *1* AC. You're being pedantic.

As for the firewall, trapsmithing, etc. arguments, my point is that ANY Rogue or Wizard can get those enhancements.

That's not the case with Fighters/Paladins.
Of the 2 classes and the 6 total PrEs, only 2 of the 6 look to offer boosts to heavy/medium armour.
A Kensai, KoTC, HoTD, and presumably PDK (if/when it gets released), can't get the extra bonuses, which *are* significant.
A Stalwart has +3 AC just from tier 3 of the PrE; +2 MDB in heavy armour; and a further +2 AC just from the ToD set. That's 7 AC over the most AC-oriented Kensai. That's pretty significant. Add in defensive stance for another +4 AC, and we're now at 11 AC difference.

Also, you're using a S&B Kensai as an example? Really? And even as S&B, he manages a paltry self-buffed AC of only 57?
That's "good" AC, don't get me wrong. But by no means "stellar".
A similarly equipped Stalwart Defender would be at a self-buffed AC of almost 70...

Just sayin'.

why in the world should a dps pre give anything close to a defensive pre in terms of ac?

If you want to have stellar ac in plate you go with one of the two pre's. I don't understand what the problem is with that. It also costs a ton of gear slots. Both rings, necklace, bracers, tier 3 on shroud weapon, gloves, and armor.

My example was not to show that a kensai can achieve the same ac as a defender, It was to show that it could achieve good enough ac situationally to justify wearing heavy armor (you know, the point of the thread)

Once again, why should a dps pre get the same ac bonuses a defensive pre gets?

[Aerendil]

Btw, not sure if you can dig into past threads, but I was trying to argue for the plate/tank changes a long time ago exactly what is being proposed here - adding better base DR or some other form of protection to the heavy armours to make them viable.

It's not quite the ideal fix, but it *could* work. Dunno.

Again, Turbine implemented that a little bit - but again, *only* to the Stalwart Defender / DoS PrEs... and mostly in the form of increasing their shield-blocking ability.

Personally, I'd rather see enhancements or feats that further improve Combat Expertise or Fighter Armour mastery.
Maybe one that adds a chance at riposting when in a defensive mode or stance, or a FAM enhancement bonus that allows for DR (i.e. "Toughened armour. Prereq: fighter armour mastery X. You have learned to make the most out of your armour, adding DR 2 in heavy armour, or DR 1 in medium. This stacks with any existing damage reduction you may have". Something like that. For the Warforged, this could stack with their racial enhancements and mithril/adamantine armour).

[Autolycus]

So the base 12 Wisdom + 3 tome + 7 item character resulting in an endgame wis of 22 (+6 to AC) with little effort doesn't qualify as instant AC the second I splash Monk and wear pajamas?

Hmm, must have missed that memo.

Also, you're making an argument based on class roles (i.e. Rogue = stellar trapsmithing. Which also isn't true - a Ranger or Wizard with a Rogue splash can be just as good), whereas I'm arguing that the armoured AC tank is pigeonholed into 1 of 2 PrEs (one for Paladin, one for Fighter). Apples and oranges. ANY Rogue character can have good trapsmithing, not just the Mechanics; ANY Wizard can have decent Firewalls, not just the Evocation-specialized ones; ANY cleric or FvS can have excellent heals, not just the healbots.

But can ANY fighter have stellar AC in plate? No. They can't.

Exactly. Why can a guy in pajamas be as well or better protected than armor wearers? It makes no sense, neither intuitively nor historically.

Originally Posted by Quikster
So you want to have stellar dps bonuses AND stellar ac bonuses on the same pre?

Make a choice. Going defender doesnt have to gimp your dps. Especially on a paly with ds III and es IV available.

I'm not saying you should be able to obtain BOTH. Not at all.
Although one could argue that fair's fair, and if Monks and Rangers can reach 70+ AC without giving up any dps, then so should tanks... but that's not an argument I'm making here.

I'll make that argument. How is the above fair?

I'm simply saying if you want stellar AC in plate, you're more or less forced to go S&B and pick up either SD or DoS PrEs.
As noted above, you *can* obtain a good AC in plate even if TWF/THF, but note that that poster *still* had to go DoS/SD to obtain it.

Don't see why you shouldn't be able have a "good" to "very good" rating AC as, say, a TWF KoTC. But in it's current state, that's very very hard to do without a ton of grinding for the best gear out there.

The Monk splashes have merely to take 1 monk level to get an instant +5-10 AC generally. And that's what I feel is broken.

Agreed. I see so many Monk splashes for this reason.

Aerendil: I'd give you rep but I have to spread it around more first.

OP: I also agree that we need a way to change the look of armor. Unfortunately, a lot of the ones I've seen are ugly.

[Aerendil]

Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

Exactly.

[Quikster]

Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

max dex/wis leaves little room for HP.

Also, what kind of dps does it do with weapons? Junk dps

[Aerendil]

why in the world should a dps pre give anything close to a defensive pre in terms of ac?

If you want to have stellar ac in plate you go with one of the two pre's. I don't understand what the problem is with that. It also costs a ton of gear slots. Both rings, necklace, bracers, tier 3 on shroud weapon, gloves, and armor.

My example was not to show that a kensai can achieve the same ac as a defender, It was to show that it could achieve good enough ac situationally to justify wearing heavy armor (you know, the point of the thread)

Once again, why should a dps pre get the same ac bonuses a defensive pre gets?

It shouldn't. But again, you're misreading me. That's not what I'm arguing.
I'm saying the difference between a DoS/SD and any other Paladin or Fighter PrE in terms of AC is VERY significant.

And this argument was essentially a counter-argument to your "Rogues are stellar at traps, Arcanes are stellar at firewalls" argument, as I was trying to show you that *any* Rogue PrE can be stellar at traps, and *any* Arcane PrE can be stellar at firewalls. But that's not the case with non-SDs/DoSs.

Ahh well. This is getting convoluted and misconstrued.
Time for a coffee

PS - Autolycus. Thanks for the offer, mate. It's the thought that counts

[Aerendil]

max dex/wis leaves little room for HP.

Also, what kind of dps does it do with weapons? Junk dps

The Exploiter build begs to differ, and is not max dex/wis. In fact it's mostly str/con, with a general base wis of 10-12ish and dex of 16ish. And still manages to have great end-game hp.

And it's dps is far from junk.

Just one example of the pajama'ed super-warrior.
(the creator of that build knew exactly that it wasn't *supposed* to be able to do that, hence the name.... and hence why we're arguing for better tank AC here)

[Autolycus]

Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

Well said!
+1

[Battlehawke]

Quik...

Don't get upset...

Shes a cleric....she heals.... I know ...I know..thats not what clerics that you know do.. but mine..heal... she only has 362 HP, but she's only level 16/2 Cleric/Monk. Shes a min/max build... Everything went into Wis and Dex and the little I had left over went into her Con...she doesnt have a +45 HP Greensteel Item yet either......... please don't be upset that my cleric heals.... I'm truley very sorry to upset you about it...


Battlehawke

[Battlehawke]

Thank You for the Rep guys..... I'm trying to be positive... I think its funny that a naked guy has a better AC than a guy with Plate Mail and a Tower Shield, but ..its the game, and I've just learned to build my toons around it.... If you like Wf, check out the Hurtlocker Build too. Its not min/max but has some serious naked powers too!!


Battlehawke