To good to nerf green steal.

[BlackSteel]

he might as well be arguing a case to nerf raise the ML of ALL raid loot.

oh noez, the ML of the SoS is to low, or the dragon belt has str 6, when random loot at that level is commonly str 4 (or RR 5)

it was common when the cap was 16 to drag a lvl 12 thru the shroud for shards. the exception being that the lvl 12 would be a new vet's character and it would likely be a guild run. But with the long exp grind in TR's, and the raising of the cap, I think most people hold off for awhile now. New characters are not going to have he opportunity to craft until 16+

also he's completely ignored the fact that particular greater banes can both give you a higher to hit and base damage and extra damage dice than greensteel. But he insists on comparing it to ML 12 loot, which is silly b/c 1) unless you're a TR, you're not getting GS at lvl 11/12, and 2) its freaking raid loot, and the ML and power level of the item is supposed to be lower/higher compared to random loot. If raid loot played by the item generation rules and also had appropriate min levels then the gear wouldnt be nearly as good.

[Kza]

Instead of boring nerfs on GS. They did an awesome way of implementing ice games that makes some weapons quite comparable to GS, not perfect but quite close. This is a way funnier and better way to go imho = allow some craftings on random weapons instead of nerfs.

Imho expand "ice" craftings to be allowed 24/7 on all random weapons with some fun effects and powergap close in smoothly and revitalize tradings etc. BUT NO BTA plz plz let all be tradeables as frost recipes and weapons are.

(a +x silver holyburst khopesh of Gevilbane with some schockingburst recipe = yummy!)

[FluffyCalico]

Instead of boring nerfs on GS. They did an awesome way of implementing ice games that makes some weapons quite comparable to GS, not perfect but quite close. This is a way funnier and better way to go imho = allow some craftings on random weapons instead of nerfs.

Imho expand "ice" craftings to be allowed 24/7 on all random weapons with some fun effects and powergap close in smoothly and revitalize tradings etc. BUT NO BTA plz plz let all be tradeables as frost recipes and weapons are.

(a +x silver holyburst khopesh of Gevilbane with some schockingburst recipe = yummy!)

A scary amount of things take no damage from the icyburst kits

[SquelchHU]

A scary amount of things take no damage from the icyburst kits

This is also true of Min 2s (acid) and to a lesser extent Lit 2s (lightning).

[Mellkor]

I certainly support a change to GS items/weapons. Changing them to ML 20 would at least bring them in line, relatively speaking, with other items/weapons in the game. Even after boosting some epic items/weapons and nerfing others, GS items/weapons are still, in many cases, far better and much more desireable than ML 20 epic items.

Ideally I would like to see each tier change the ML higher something like 12/16/20 for tiers 1 thru 3 respectively. But if that is not possible, please change them to ML 20.

I strongly feel that epic items should trump any ML 12 item by a significant factor. And that is simply not happening here, in the case of GS items/weapons.

[Krag]

I certainly support a change to GS items/weapons. Changing them to ML 20 would at least bring them in line, relatively speaking, with other items/weapons in the game. Even after boosting some epic items/weapons and nerfing others, GS items/weapons are still, in many cases, far better and much more desireable than ML 20 epic items.

Ideally I would like to see each tier change the ML higher something like 12/16/20 for tiers 1 thru 3 respectively. But if that is not possible, please change them to ML 20.

I strongly feel that epic items should trump any ML 12 item by a significant factor. And that is simply not happening here, in the case of GS items/weapons.

Fits well into the nerfdate.

[Mellkor]

May as well fit it in LOL. get it over with, adding more fuel to the firestorm now wont make much of a difference!

[sephiroth1084]

I certainly support a change to GS items/weapons. Changing them to ML 20 would at least bring them in line, relatively speaking, with other items/weapons in the game. Even after boosting some epic items/weapons and nerfing others, GS items/weapons are still, in many cases, far better and much more desireable than ML 20 epic items.

Ideally I would like to see each tier change the ML higher something like 12/16/20 for tiers 1 thru 3 respectively. But if that is not possible, please change them to ML 20.

I strongly feel that epic items should trump any ML 12 item by a significant factor. And that is simply not happening here, in the case of GS items/weapons.

Should the raid loot from DQ (Torc, Greenblade, Pouch), Titan (Chattering Ring, Seven Fingered, Titan Belt), Reaver (Madstone Boots, Head of Good Fortune, Napkin), Hound and VoD have their ML raised because they are more powerful than just about any other item in their respective slots/roles?

Increasing the ML on Shroud weapons to 16 would have no effect other than to make leveling a TR less enjoyable. Increasing the ML on Shroud weapons to 20 would both do that and make the level 16-20 range a lot less enjoyable to play in, and for what purpose?

There are other ways that greensteel could be nerfed in a moderate fashion without stripping weapons from 8 levels of gameplay. Remove the blast effects, or maybe remove the bursts, or drop the base enhancement on the weapons to +3 instead of +5, or... Any of these changes would upset a lot of people, but wouldn't completely destroy the weapons, or the entire point of working toward them, or the fun of TRing.

And again, there are weapons that offer comparable DPS...they are just incredibly rare, because you have to wait for the random loot tables to toss one out there. If the concern is with Shroud weapons making everything but those obsolete, then perhaps some tweaks need to be made to the loot generators (and that is true even outside of this argument).

Finally, the thing to remember is this: Shroud weapons may consolidate backpack space, and may make it unnecessary to acquire other DPS weapons, but they don't make other people without Shroud weapons useless. You may have better equipment than the next guy, but that doesn't mean the next guy is useless. Hell, he may not even be that far behind. And they don't obviate the utility of things like Banishers and Smiters...monsters' inflated saves do that. Vorpals still have their place. And that's as it should be: some weapons are only useful in a few circumstances, and it is up to us whether we want to spent the coin and space on those niche items.


Going back to the idiotic arguments concerning WoP, those DID make anyone else fairly pointless, as if 2 or 3 people in the group were doing Con damage, anyone who wasn't was working at cross purposes.

[osirisisis]

I certainly support a change to GS items/weapons. Changing them to ML 20 would at least bring them in line, relatively speaking, with other items/weapons in the game. Even after boosting some epic items/weapons and nerfing others, GS items/weapons are still, in many cases, far better and much more desireable than ML 20 epic items.

Ideally I would like to see each tier change the ML higher something like 12/16/20 for tiers 1 thru 3 respectively. But if that is not possible, please change them to ML 20.

I strongly feel that epic items should trump any ML 12 item by a significant factor. And that is simply not happening here, in the case of GS items/weapons.

I couldn't agree more.

I would like to see base go to 16 min from 12 and +2 base damage removed and good burst changed to pure good. I think that would be a great step in the right direction.
for 2 lvls higher at 16 from the random loot 14 min lvl you would get metalline and bleed or radiance 2 or lighting strike, with burst, +2 exceptional or +4 AC, which is a great deal over the random loot counter part but the set back is its bound.
Simple easy change, not game breaking and would do wonders for some real balance and bound/and unbound loot synergy.

[Mellkor]

So who is the Jerk who neg repped me for something I said in here? Own up so I can give you neg rep too, just to show you how much it means to me LOL. My guess is it is the guy who posted after my last post.....

Rep system is stupid. It certainly makes some people afraid to speak thier mind. Rest assured it wont affect me in any way. LOL.

[Mellkor]

Should the raid loot from DQ (Torc, Greenblade, Pouch), Titan (Chattering Ring, Seven Fingered, Titan Belt), Reaver (Madstone Boots, Head of Good Fortune, Napkin), Hound and VoD have their ML raised because they are more powerful than just about any other item in their respective slots/roles?

Increasing the ML on Shroud weapons to 16 would have no effect other than to make leveling a TR less enjoyable. Increasing the ML on Shroud weapons to 20 would both do that and make the level 16-20 range a lot less enjoyable to play in, and for what purpose?

There are other ways that greensteel could be nerfed in a moderate fashion without stripping weapons from 8 levels of gameplay. Remove the blast effects, or maybe remove the bursts, or drop the base enhancement on the weapons to +3 instead of +5, or... Any of these changes would upset a lot of people, but wouldn't completely destroy the weapons, or the entire point of working toward them, or the fun of TRing.

And again, there are weapons that offer comparable DPS...they are just incredibly rare, because you have to wait for the random loot tables to toss one out there. If the concern is with Shroud weapons making everything but those obsolete, then perhaps some tweaks need to be made to the loot generators (and that is true even outside of this argument).

Finally, the thing to remember is this: Shroud weapons may consolidate backpack space, and may make it unnecessary to acquire other DPS weapons, but they don't make other people without Shroud weapons useless. You may have better equipment than the next guy, but that doesn't mean the next guy is useless. Hell, he may not even be that far behind. And they don't obviate the utility of things like Banishers and Smiters...monsters' inflated saves do that. Vorpals still have their place. And that's as it should be: some weapons are only useful in a few circumstances, and it is up to us whether we want to spent the coin and space on those niche items.


Going back to the idiotic arguments concerning WoP, those DID make anyone else fairly pointless, as if 2 or 3 people in the group were doing Con damage, anyone who wasn't was working at cross purposes.

No. I am speaking about greensteel, as my post clearly states. You clearly agree with me at some level since you speak of nerfing them in other ways.

This wont just affect TR people, it will affect everyone. It simply balances out a horribly imbalanced set of items/weapons.

[Cyr]

So who is the Jerk who neg repped me for something I said in here? Own up so I can give you neg rep too, just to show you how much it means to me LOL.

You can't neg rep yet.

[Mellkor]

You can't neg rep yet.

I certainly can, just not on this guy.

[Cyr]

I certainly can, just not on this guy.

Check. What is your other account?

[sephiroth1084]

No. I am speaking about greensteel, as my post clearly states. You clearly agree with me at some level since you speak of nerfing them in other ways.

My points were that raid loot isn't meant to follow the same rules as random loot and that the problems that exist would not be fixed by increasing the ML on Shroud weaponry, which would basically only have a negative effect on enjoyment of the game. The raid itself would have to be raised in level, since it would be pretty ridiculous for characters to be running a level 17 raid from which they would gain no benefit for 3 levels, and then we'd have something of a gap in the level 16 range.

And I mentioned other raid loot to demonstrate that items being better than anything else at a given level is not necessarily a problem. In fact, I mentioned items that are ML 12-14 and are better than nearly anything else in their respective slots and roles even at level 20 (excluding their epic upgrades). If those don't need to be changed, why do Shroud weapons? An oversimplification, but only slightly--Shroud weapons may invalidate randomly generated weapons to a degree, but they aren't a necessity for accomplishing certain goals (whereas some of the aforementioned raid loot have no alternatives whatsoever). You can get through all the content in the game without a greensteel item (I've snuck in on a few epic raids on my under-equipped barbarian by riding on my reputation from other characters ).

This wont just affect TR people, it will affect everyone. It simply balances out a horribly imbalanced set of items/weapons.

Changing the ML doesn't balance these especially well. All it does is push off one of the one truly linear loot grind we have to cap. You may not feel this way, but many players focus their characters around hitting the Shroud and working on their greensteels from around level 14-20. It may get tedious to run the quest repeatedly, but working on greensteel is a lot more fun than grinding raids hoping to see what you're after drop, and drop for you, or to win a roll on it, and hoping that it pops up on your 20th, 40th, 60th run. If you run the Shroud, you will get a piece of raid loot that you want, that you designed, in a fairly predictable period of time.

And again, there is the issue of leveling a TR, which should be considered when looking to remove things from the level 12-19 range. The game shouldn't be balanced around TR'ed characters' abilities, but it should bend a bit to making the grind as enjoyable/less painful as possible as that is the new retention feature for many vets and new hardcore gamers.

I talk about nerfing them because I agree that they are a bit overpowered, but feel that small tweaks would be sufficient. That is, I feel like a greensteel should not necessarily be the best weapon to use in general, that very good random loot should be able to trump it. A +5 Holy Burst/Elemental Burst of Greater Bane should be the most effective weapon against any monster for which it bypasses DR. Against elementals this is still basically the case, and against other monsters the weapons are comparable.

Basically, I think greensteel could stand to lose 1-2 dice of damage (about 3-6 damage per hit on average), or a set of bursting/blasting/special bonus explosion. Partly to address the above, and partly to mitigate some of the lag these weapons contribute heavily to. Dropping the damage per hit of these weapons by 3-10 points would annoy people, but wouldn't really decrease the stock of greensteel weapons all that much, and wouldn't dramatically alter the game balance significantly (though monster HP should probably be reduced a little bit to compensate).

The fact remains that these weapons are so far ahead of everything else that nothing else is viable, as some people may assert. They are ahead by enough that the effect can be noticeable, which is appropriate for raid loot.

[MrCow]

Just a question of curiosity, has there ever been a situation where an old already obtained item had its minimum level increased to every incarnation of the item? I know there have been situations where newly obtained versions might have a different minimum level (Star of Irian, Greensteel Weaponry, etc.), but has there ever been an instance where all incarnations were changed in minimum level?

The reason I ask this question is because unless an item's change is on the base properties, such as material type/durability/critical profile/base damage/clickable effect, I don't believe they have ever altered old item properties (which is why to get newer forms we often use the Stone of Change). Things like an item's minimum level or the fact that it has the Holy property are likely bound to the item ID and not the base item.

Regardless of the desire (or lack of desire) to change Greensteel weapons it might be more demanding or prone to error or issue than meets the eye.

[sirdanile]

Basically, I think greensteel could stand to lose 1-2 dice of damage (about 3-6 damage per hit on average), or a set of bursting/blasting/special bonus explosion. Partly to address the above, and partly to mitigate some of the lag these weapons contribute heavily to. Dropping the damage per hit of these weapons by 3-10 points would annoy people, but wouldn't really decrease the stock of greensteel weapons all that much, and wouldn't dramatically alter the game balance significantly (though monster HP should probably be reduced a little bit to compensate).

Or they could combine the on crit effects into one, less total numbers = less dps lag.

[sephiroth1084]

Or they could combine the on crit effects into one, less total numbers = less dps lag.

How do you mean?

[sirdanile]

How do you mean?

Someone did a test comparing a litII falchion to the epic sos and noted the send and recv rates, it was significantly higher with the lit II presumeably due to number of addtional effects on the weapon even though the sos base damage was higher, consolidate effects = less lag.

EDIT: All electric damage on a litII should be shown as 1 number, all acid damage on a min II shown as 1 number, all holy damage on a posx3 should be shown together in a single number

[Hydro]

Someone did a test comparing a litII falchion to the epic sos and noted the send and recv rates, it was significantly higher with the lit II presumeably due to number of addtional effects on the weapon even though the sos base damage was higher, consolidate effects = less lag.

EDIT: All electric damage on a litII should be shwon as 1 number, all acid damage on a min II shown as 1 number, all holy damage on a posx3 should be shown together in a single number

Or they could just not nerf the Epic SoS and THF and people would try to get the SoS instead of being forced into two weapons if we want competitive dps. Which in turn would help reduce lag.