To good to nerf green steal.

[Dendrix]

Agreed....
But I would say that rarity should inherently grant power hence value, and if all things were balanced and equal in the game it would lose a piece of its essences and entertainment.

I'm afraid you are 100% wrong. The argument that rarity should equal power is a fundamentally broken one. Rare items will be chased and with the random nature of loot will be generated and will exist and over time, will become common amongst the used items.

If 1 in 1000 items generated is WoP then you sell the other 999 to vendors and use the 1. And then repeat the process. And so do the other million players.

What THEN happens is that the rare/powerful item becomes a required item to be accepted into groups/raids. Take a look at the Shroud - ever single shroud run on Orion stipulates that BossBeaters are required for melees.

Let me give you an older example from another game, Everquest. There was an item that could be used as often as you liked with no cooldown that gave you back spell points. Every cleric (and other spellcaster) wanted it, and it became required that a cleric had to have it to get into groups. So much so that the item was removed from the game, and the world changed so that it only worked in a few places. That is what happens when rarity = power.

[osirisisis]

The problems with greensteel weapons have nothing to do with their ML; most characters don't acquire a GS item/weapon until they are level 15 or higher, and new players likely don't until they are close to, or at, 20. The only people who benefit from the current ML are TR'ed vets and vets with a lot of excess ingredients twinking out a new character. That isn't really a problem.

I think you need to reference # 27 also. In my opinion the TR exp bloat issue is the core of that problem. Green steel nerf or not it need to be addressed also but saying we can nerf green steel because of the poor TR's doesn't hold water because the poor TR's need help regaurdless.

The problem is that GS are just so much better than 95% of the stuff we find in random loot.

The problem is Mineral 2 min lvl would be 30 if it was based on the muti dual level system we have in place with the random loot table and its not 30 its 12 and in some cases 8.....thats the problem. On what you said I would say boardline 98.9% if not 100%... Some players may have a case with +5 silver holy of GEOB but this weapon only works on about 5% of the mobs in the game, (even tho right now some could argue that they are the most important 5% in the game) and probably is only less then .001% of random loot table possibility, vorpal making up an other 1% defiantly still viable in end game today. I ask you what else you think is a weapon that comes out of the random loot table today that has any end game viability.

The problem is that GS weapons are throwing out many more things to calculate than other weapons, and contributing to lag.

I still convinced that if turbine throwing money at buying better severs with better hardware and this problem would dramatically improve.

The devs are avoiding nerfing these since they represent quite a lot of effort and planning (not that building a character, say around TWF, didn't, but...people feel strongly about their loot).

This Concept wasn't in the dev's vocabulary when they nerfed w/p. Nor was it there when they diluted power 5, doesn't look that way with TWF, which by the way if you do switch over to 2HF could cost you loot if you had 1 handers bound to you like Green Steal for example. What make you think that come to learn that nerfing players hard work doesn't entertain them....

WoP needed to be nerfed for completely different reasons: basically, WoPs completely changed the way every character played, and had essentially everyone ignoring most of their class abilities and focus in order to get better as using WoPs, including making all of the DPS options classes have largely insignificant when compared to attack speed increases, because WoP was just so much better than things like sneak attack, rage, smite, etc...

First of all what said needs some proof reading.. Second w/p doesnt work on constructs so it didnt replace smite, 3rd w/p didn't work on red and purple names so DPS was defendantly not replaced, and please re write the rest of it so I can read it right.


If you're going to ***** about something, at least figure out this **** works, and the reasoning behind it.

I pretty sure I've got this way more figured out then you ever will. And cussing up a storm on my thread is probably not going to change that.

[FluffyCalico]

I pretty sure I've got this way more figured out then you ever will. And cussing up a storm on my thread is probably not going to change that.

While con damage is broken w/p was NEVER working as per PnP. Now its just broken in two ways instead of 1. I think you would like it even less if they fixed both of the broken things about it.

[osirisisis]

1. Really, Again? Give It Up, W/p Is Dead, Move On.

2. The Reason Is Because The Developers Are Obviously Casual Players And Could Never Loot W/p.


Lol That Kinda Funny.. But The Broken Record People Are Over There How About You Go Hang Out With Them.

Theres Your Answer.

88

[osirisisis]

While con damage is broken w/p was NEVER working as per PnP. Now its just broken in two ways instead of 1. I think you would like it even less if they fixed both of the broken things about it.

What I would be happy for now is Green Steal moves to min lvl 16/15. Necro turn in moves to min level 12 from 14, Dragon Touch moves to min lvl 16 and loses tier 2 ( I mean honestly is there any level 20 toons on the on all the severs wearing any form of armor that comes out of the random loot table thats not a mule, I bet less then 1% viablitiy on random loot armor past 16), TR goes to 1.9 million on any life, sup bane added to the loot table at a min level 8 (+6 5d6), and w/p restored to how it was in mod 3. Later on I would be happy with these changes.

My position is 130% viability over vorpal pursuant to rarity and massive investment cost OVER TRASH MOBS with 100 times plus rarity in the random loot system did not merit a nerf.... And increasing rarity of these effects would have been much more in integratiy, instead of dramatically degrading some players hard work

Further more I fail to see the logic in 130% meriting a nerf and 280% green steal not meriting a nerf.

[osirisisis]

I'm afraid you are 100% wrong. The argument that rarity should equal power is a fundamentally broken one. Rare items will be chased and with the random nature of loot will be generated and will exist and over time, will become common amongst the used items.

If this concept was true then large scales should be 10 k plat on the AH after 2 years of shrouding because they are "common amongst"...........but it's not true rarity has merit

If 1 in 1000 items generated is WoP then you sell the other 999 to vendors and use the 1. And then repeat the process. And so do the other million players.

Lets just say that I had over 70 larges scales in the last 2 years but have yet to pull a w/p rapier.

What THEN happens is that the rare/powerful item becomes a required item to be accepted into groups/raids. Take a look at the Shroud - ever single shroud run on Orion stipulates that BossBeaters are required for melees.

If that's true then stop pugging, I can take 11 of argon. best and we could beat the shroud with plain jane +5, in that build, and skill > gear. I'm sorry to hear that some players on orion have that much trouble with the shroud

Let me give you an older example from another game, Everquest. There was an item that could be used as often as you liked with no cooldown that gave you back spell points. Every cleric (and other spellcaster) wanted it, and it became required that a cleric had to have it to get into groups. So much so that the item was removed from the game, and the world changed so that it only worked in a few places. That is what happens when rarity = power.

If your position is that w/p should of been nerf because it would of became a requirement to have one to play do to trash mob challenge factor then I would say there might be some crubs of truth to this be not much.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I'm sure almost everyone got that the first time you posted it Dark.

Mmmm, indeed.

[osirisisis]

You want an intelligent answer. It never made sense to me that the ML on GS was 12 when you can't even get in the Vale till 14. This obviously didn't matter before TR though. However, changing it would solve what issue exactly? Overpowered TR's grinding the same content for the 300th time? Not really something than needs fixing...

I say referance # 27 in this thread.........with green steal min level being 30 if it came out of the random loot table any min level nerf would be a step in the right direction. The TR exp bloat is a separate issue with a separate remedy.

[Visty]

Visty try reading the whole thread before u comment with blanket statements reference #27 5 or 6 posts above.

i did read the entire thread

and just cause you say it aint so doesnt mean it aint so

[Eladiun]

[SquelchHU]

Translation: I got nerfed so I want you nerfed too, and I'm going to outright lie to try and get you nerfed.

Fail. Just. Fail.

[stainer]

WoP was bunk. People were breaking out 8 str 40 dex rangers with a couple of toothpicks that were killing things faster than 56 str barbarians swinging Chevy S-10s by their front bumpers. This was somehow fair? LOL.

Chai,

Thank you for that very descriptive observation. I spit coffee on my monitor. I will +1 you now, but will be back to -1 you if my monitor shorts out.

edit - I have to owe you a +1, I have given out to much.

[Thame]

I saw one of the devs say there avoiding nerfing Green Steal. I dont have the link at the moment.

My question is why is a green steal move from 12 min level to 16 min level so much to ask for, when turbine decided to nerf wounding and puncturing to:

1. 95% less viable and deceasing its value by more then 95%

2. Wronging it's veteran population that choose to put a massive amount of work that it took to build the net worth to obtain these elite weapons by that hard work with one simple change, a veteran population that supported the game from the beginning in its most fragile time and deserves to be grand fathered in.

3. All because 30% more viability in swing per kill ratio on trash mobs vs. the common vorpal was considered SOOOOOOO imbalance, in a game where 95% of the party wipes and combat challenge happen at red names where w/p is useless.

4. Destroying most of what little random loot excitement factor was left in the random loot table at the time.

So my question to the turbine dev team is: If w/p was so bad that it had to be eradicated basically, with the list of all the negative side effects that came with it, instead of just raising the rarity of wound or puncturing effects X 100 with no bias to class based end reward, Then why is Green Steal to good to nerf?

If you think that the w/p nerf was the wrong move then why haven't you re instated it?

I don't appreciate my entertainment company destroying years of half of my hard work and half my account value with one move.......do you?

Tier 3 green steal is about 280% more effective DPS then its min level 12 random loot table counter parts.........W/P was 130%.....and there's min level 8 Green Steal that was grand fathered in. I fail to see the logic in this behavior.

Its your opinion, your entitled to it. I dont really read these forums much anymore, but whenever I see a thread you post in, it always contains this same topic. Dude, let w/p topic die.

[Thrudh]

What the hell? Is it 2009 again?

[Thrudh]

Here's a quote (not my quote, just a random one) from one of your w/p threads back on 4-13-2009

you really are starting to be an embarassment with spamming this all over the forums. So you build all your characters only utilizing w/p, so what?

Let's not return to those days, eh?

[Raelg14]

I just wanted to post and say its spelled greensteel.

ROFL +1 to your sir.

[Drfirewater79]

I saw one of the devs say there avoiding nerfing Green Steal. I dont have the link at the moment.

My question is why is a green steal move from 12 min level to 16 min level so much to ask for, when turbine decided to nerf wounding and puncturing to:

1. 95% less viable and deceasing its value by more then 95%

2. Wronging it's veteran population that choose to put a massive amount of work that it took to build the net worth to obtain these elite weapons by that hard work with one simple change, a veteran population that supported the game from the beginning in its most fragile time and deserves to be grand fathered in.

3. All because 30% more viability in swing per kill ratio on trash mobs vs. the common vorpal was considered SOOOOOOO imbalance, in a game where 95% of the party wipes and combat challenge happen at red names where w/p is useless.

4. Destroying most of what little random loot excitement factor was left in the random loot table at the time.

So my question to the turbine dev team is: If w/p was so bad that it had to be eradicated basically, with the list of all the negative side effects that came with it, instead of just raising the rarity of wound or puncturing effects X 100 with no bias to class based end reward, Then why is Green Steal to good to nerf?

If you think that the w/p nerf was the wrong move then why haven't you re instated it?

I don't appreciate my entertainment company destroying years of half of my hard work and half my account value with one move.......do you?

Tier 3 green steal is about 280% more effective DPS then its min level 12 random loot table counter parts.........W/P was 130%.....and there's min level 8 Green Steal that was grand fathered in. I fail to see the logic in this behavior.

difference is pretty clear

1) green steel requires a grind mechanic and a crafting mechanic also makes it bound to character as it is treated as raid loot ..

2) W/P is not gimped at all ... only people who think so are people who dont understand what happened ... the problem with w/p origionally is that it had a higher kill success then vorpal based on the fact that generally mobs con score is lower then str.

if a dual wielder could take away 30 con in 10 seconds and it would take considerably more time on average to vorpal then it made all other weapons in the game useless in comparison .... since w/p is a randomly generated loot rather then crafted loot this didnt make any sense.

instead now when con is 0 they are stunned which takes an additional what 2 hits to kill them ... wow so gimped ..

anyone who doesnt want there w/p weapons and thinks they are **** i am more then willing to trade large bones for them ... shoot i will give you 3 large bones for every w/p rapier or dagger you have ... send tell on sarlona to confusious and i am glad to take all your finessable w/p melee weapons.

3) Nerfing weapons doesnt make sense (with the exception of epic versions as it doesnt really relate to epic anyway) especially not weapons that have been crafted ...

but technically green steel already got a nerf this round as twfs got screwed ... if you own two of the same greensteel your proc rate is now practically halfed from what it is on live currently ... and turbines response to this was "but now you can have twice as many different procs which is still an advantage over THF or s&b" but we pay twice the cost and that kinda slipped there mind as is.

...............

green steel doesnt need nerfing

classes dont need nerfing

weapon styles dont need nerfing

TURBINE NEEDS TO START NERFING THEMSELVES ... cause they have no clue what players want in there game anymore.

[Cyr]

W/P was not OP. It was fun trash mob tech.

A greensteel ML nerf would be equally as dumb. It only matters for TR's and unless the goal is to make playing a TR even more dull and boring what is the point? TR's right now goes as follows...

Run quests under your level.
Re-run high xp quests under your level to death.
Don't level until you can't gain anymore experience without leveling first.
The whole time have no issues completing quests because they are all under level and you have run them 100's of times before.

Without GS these junk quests level 11-14 would just take a little longer. It's not going to make the content challenging. All it does is slow us down a little and require more weapon sets for that level range.

[Drfirewater79]

2. The reason is because the developers are obviously casual players and could never loot W/P.


Theres your answer.

this is also the reason they will never make changes to the game that make sense to anyone who plays more then a hour a day on weekdays and more then 6 hours on a weekend ...

they have no clue what people who have 6+ characters above lvl 16 feel like playing this cash grab new edition of DDO .... the game is getting worse and worse not better and better .....

and its not the quality of content ... the new missions are great ... but its the quality of gameplay which has taken a drastic drop ... the quality of the game over all has been going down rather then up.

my bet is next year .... when the hype is down .... after half orc is old news ....

we are gonna see the same exidous we saw in the great mod 9 delay holocaust ... where thousands of characters and player accounts died off never to be seen or heard from again.

[Lithic]

As for "Raising the min lvl of greensteel would change nothing at all except for TR's."
I would disagree.
A 12 to 16 move would:

1. Open up some random loot value and random loot excitment factor for gear in the range of 11-15.

2. Bring viability to some of the Necro tome page turn gear which right now is way over shadowed by green steal, would also add with a green steel min lvl nerf a lift should be give to necro gear by lower min lvl to 12.

3. Set green steal up for another nerf when the level cap goes to 24 to a min level of 18 which still would not put it into balance with its random loot table counter parts but would be a move in the right direction.

1) Since only TRs have greensteel at 12-16 (and I challenge you to make a new character now and pug enough shrouds to get a tier3 item by lvl 15), then non-TRs are already using random loot items till 16+. This would change NOTHING for non-TRs.

2) Necro tome pages already are viable. Skivver is the best offhand caster item currently in game. The rest suck (except maybe deathnips), but they were designed to suck, and sucked when the cap was 14 too. Nerfing greensteel won't make these viable. Combine that with tome page drop rate (Estimated to be 1 in 100 based on my own experience), and you will get ZERO people with tome page sets before lvl 20, unless they buy them off the AH. Again, nothing would change for non-TRs.

3) Nerfing greensteel to lvl 18? That makes less sense than your tome page argument. First the loot would be higher level than the raid itself, which goes against all other raid loot rules. Second, non-TRs STILL wont have a tier 3 greensteel by lvl 18, unless starting at lvl 17 they do nothing but farm the shroud 1-4 until they get all their shards and their materials. Once more, nothing changes for non-TRs.

Until people can reasonably be expected to gain enough power shards and materials to get a tier 3 item before lvl 16, there is no point to nerfing of the greensteel min lvl. You might think it will change how the loot tables of lvl 12-16 are seen, but it will not.