To good to nerf green steal.

[Gornin]

With this last comment about w/p being as good as it ever was I'm not sure if showing you the math is really worth the time since, it seems you all ready have a track recorded of rejecting factual data.

But if you would like you can do it your self:

Just go to this link here and throw in a stats for a lighting strike tier 3 khopesh min lvl 12 vs a +4 shocking burst khopesh of pure good min lvl 12 with no other variables.

Oh, because I and many others have seen minimal impact on how our characters perform while dual wielding w/p, that makes me stupid and not able to understand the math?

Wow, really nice debate technique there, as usual you insult instead of prove.

And by minimal impact, I mean 1 to 2 seconds more to kill trash. Not a big deal.

The link you provided is for comparison for one character using different weapons. That does not prove 280% greater than anything else in the game. It is a flawed comparison due to it only applies to an individual build vs specific circumstances. It is not valid for the whole game, only for one build at a time.

So, it proves nothing. The results are too variable and specific at the same time.

[osirisisis]

Oh, because I and many others have seen minimal impact on how our characters perform while dual wielding w/p, that makes me stupid and not able to understand the math?

Wow, really nice debate technique there, as usual you insult instead of prove.

And by minimal impact, I mean 1 to 2 seconds more to kill trash. Not a big deal.

The link you provided is for comparison for one character using different weapons. That does not prove 280% greater than anything else in the game. It is a flawed comparison due to it only applies to an individual build vs specific circumstances. It is not valid for the whole game, only for one build at a time.

Don't plug in any of the character stats to use the tool to compare weapon vs weapon, and I didn't say anything else in the game I said vs it's min level 12 random loot counter part.

So, it proves nothing. The results are too variable and specific at the same time.

For me its swing to kill ratio. From what I experienced attacking trash in Shroud, TOD, Vod, Epic and IQ, the most common and the majority end game trash. with properly speced daul weilding barb, fighter, and ranger with 2 w/p rapiers is that the nerf moved w/p raperis from 3-22 ish swing per kill to 12-over 80 ish swings per kill. In epic w/p is quick laughable.
W/P used to be the best trash choice over 90% of the time and now I'm luckly if it is 5% of the time which basically makes it almost worth less.

So how come we are both playing the same game but yet seem to be coming up with 2 very different results.

[BlackSteel]

For me its swing to kill ratio. From what I experienced attacking trash in Shroud, TOD, Vod, Epic and IQ, the most common and the majority end game trash. with properly speced daul weilding barb, fighter, and ranger with 2 w/p rapiers is that the nerf moved w/p raperis from 3-22 ish swing per kill to 12-over 80 ish swings per kill. In epic w/p is quick laughable.
W/P used to be the best trash choice over 90% of the time and now I'm luckly if it is 5% of the time which basically makes it almost worth less.

So how come we are both playing the same game but yet seem to be coming up with 2 very different results.

obvious answer is that going from 16-20 and acquiring new gear aside from weapons, on top of class abilities and enhancements, DPS on the low HP trash you're referring to is a better option than taking the monster down to autocrit then killing. Heck a barbarian gains 30% more damage at lvl 18 over his level 16 counterpart. Not to mention Tod sets and epic loot.

in epic its laughable b/c of the ward that the monsters get agaisnt it. the only thing thats true laughable is your persistent notion to nerf everything else in order to make your collection worthwhile again.

[MrCow]

W/P used to be the best trash choice over 90% of the time and now I'm luckly if it is 5% of the time which basically makes it almost worth less.

Likewise, you have things like Banishing weapons, Smiting weapons, Vorpals, weapons of Improved Destruction, Greater Racial Bane weapons, and all sorts of other situational things. Just because CON damage weaponry isn't lopsidedly powerful now doesn't mean it is useless. Any situation where something is immune to vorpal but not stat damage (Gianthold Tor) or anything with ~19+ HD (elementals and late-game non-epic quests) and CON damage does very well in terms of Hit Point Damage per Swing.

So how come we are both playing the same game but yet seem to be coming up with 2 very different results.

Difference of perspective.

[osirisisis]

Likewise, you have things like Banishing weapons,

I have not found banishing viable to any degree worth talking about since the vale
In end game content
Amerath = 0% viability
IQ = 3% to 0%
subterrane 3% if we are lucky seeing how saves are so high that vorpal is choice.
Epic = 0%
Reaver Refuge = 1%


Smiting weapons,

the results on smiting are worse then banishing since necro and even in necro the saves on the flesh golums are so high Shourd Craft DPS min level 12 is choice over +5 smiting rapiers, kurki, or semi min level 18


Vorpals,

Defentally still viable in the game and if all power 5's were as viable as vorpal I think we would see a good balance between power 5 and shroud craft DPS.

weapons of Improved Destruction,

Little to no viability in the end game due to that well built tanks require no real help to + to hit and if they did against trash I would question how switch from these to other weapons would dilute swing per kill ratio. Now in the case of red name and purple names if destruction works on them I would say theres some viability here but I think all epic mobs are immuned to this effect.

Greater Racial Bane weapons,

This is a great example of how imbalanced Green Steel Craft DPS is. In the extremely rare case that you can find a + 5 silver holy of GEOB you have a slight and I mean slight edge with a min lvl 18 weapon over a level 12 min GS craft DPS, that is then completely worthless against any thing else but that type. When the GS craft DPS is also viable over 95% of the rest of the game. Also i will make you 20 tier 3 DPS weapons before I will ever pull 1 +5 silver holy of GEOB running the shroud.

and all sorts of other situational things.

yes... but not many.

Just because CON damage weaponry isn't lopsidedly powerful now doesn't mean it is useless.

I'm not saying w/p rapiers are useless I'm say there almost useless holding less then 5% viability in the game verse other choices.

Any situation where something is immune to vorpal but not stat damage (Gianthold Tor) or anything with ~19+ HD (elementals and late-game non-epic quests) and CON damage does very well in terms of Hit Point Damage per Swing.

I invite you to find me in end game content a context where immured to vorpal mobs die faster in swing to kill ratio with w/p rapiers vs tier 3 DPS. And then once you due I want to compare that context by % to the rest of the contexts that make up end game from Refuge to epic.

Difference of perspective.

Everone has there own perspective... My question is what perspective is the truth. I really dont think players can denie the massive imbalance with tier 3 min level 12 GS....but they can sure try.

[Indoran]

+1

[Kalari]

Back sorry just because I am a stickler for not being too insanely drunk to remember things, I knew you could get into the vale at 12 got my barb up to 12 today not a big feat she was at 10 thought she was lower. And just as I thought you can get Meridia bestowed on you at 12 run threw the vale and get the start of the shroud flagging quests pics below:


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eattwelve1.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eattwelve2.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eattwelve3.jpg




this just helps my previous arguement some of us can and have started our characters threw that area early because we remember when it was the norm. Now with tr and stuff people do it later but for me my first builds always get that run done at 12 and if any guild mates are on and want to start flagging early to get it out the way we do it. Greensteels are still not easy to come by even if you do start early with them even with a ton of alts who can run the shroud Im no where near deep on getting stuff made. things change and we adapt to them op sure losing the way w/p worked hurt at first but many of us got over it since it was more luck of the draw with loot or buying said items. Greensteels require a lot of work put into them, I think many people would balk if they were nerfed.

[MrCow]

Smiting weapons,

the results on smiting are worse then banishing since necro and even in necro the saves on the flesh golums are so high Shourd Craft DPS min level 12 is choice over +5 smiting rapiers, kurki, or semi min level 18

Necropolis - Clay Golems (works very well), Parcae (works very well), and Edgar (works very well)
Vale of Twilight - Stone Scorpions (works very well) and Stone Golems (works very well)
Reaver's Refuge - Flesh Golems (works very well)
Amrath - Iron Golems (works sometimes) and Clay Golems (works sometimes)

Banishing weapons,

I have not found banishing viable to any degree worth talking about since the vale

Acid Wit - Acid-Stone Elementals (works far better than straight damage due to having high AC/HP, yet a will save around ~6)
Into the Demons Den - Everything in there is extraplanar.

There is plenty of older content they work beautifully in (and if your argument is about a Wounding of Puncturing Rapier which can have ML 8 at its lowest, they you should be including content in those levels because banishing weaponry can be used in them as well instead of dismissing it).

weapons of Improved Destruction,

Little to no viability in the end game due to that well built tanks require no real help to + to hit and if they did against trash I would question how switch from these to other weapons would dilute swing per kill ratio. Now in the case of red name and purple names if destruction works on them I would say theres some viability here but I think all epic mobs are immuned to this effect.

Works in Epic (and often used due to high AC of the critters).
Works on any monster in DDO.

I'm not saying w/p rapiers are useless I'm say there almost useless holding less then 5% viability in the game verse other choices.

Like many other folks, we'd love it if you could derive your 5% viability number. There is also viability beyond "swings per kill", such as stopping a critter due to helplessness.

I invite you to find me in end game content a context where immured to vorpal mobs die faster in swing to kill ratio with w/p rapiers vs tier 3 DPS.

I've always found any of the Inspired Quarter/Dreaming Dark quests on elite with Inspired Menders to be a wonderful place, such as a few of the rooms in The Mindsunder, being they love their Death Ward Mass. Getting them down to an auto-crit status is good for damage (at ~4000+ HP, each hit as a crit adds up quick). Although, for that situation I do prefer Wounding [Icy Burst] Picks of Maiming, a Wounding of Puncturing Rapier will do wonders at quickly immobilizing them.

Elementals (such as those in Stealer of Souls and the various Amrath Quests) are also good targets to use CON damage as a means of high damage, being they usually have extraordinary Hit Dice amounts.

And then once you due I want to compare that context by % to the rest of the contexts that make up end game from Refuge to epic.

The game is larger than things from Module 8 and on. Be fair, make sure to include everything that could realistically use your weapon(s) of choice.

[sephiroth1084]

Why hasn't this discussion died?

Niche weapons are useful in their niches. WoP was supposed to be, and currently is, a niche weapon, for which there are niches where it is useful.

Yes, Shroud weapons are a bit overpowered, but again, that has nothing to do with the ML. Yes, Shroud weapons could probably stand to be reduced in power slightly (maybe remove blasts on tier III and reduce the damage of things like Lightning Strike by ~20%).

Even given that, the biggest problem with Shroud weapons is that they invalidate random loot as DPS choices, though the really good random loot weapons are strong enough that they can be used without sacrificing too much, making them viable options for those who haven't crafted their full GS.

How this keeps going back to WoP, I cannot fathom, but drop it already.

[osirisisis]

MrCow I must say it is a pleasure to engage with someone who holds there position as well as you do.
So before I start my response I want to remind you that the OP was about Tier 3 Green Steel DPS imbalance, it very low min level requirement and Turbines past history when it comes to weapons extreme viability.

Necropolis - Clay Golems (works very well), Parcae (works very well), and Edgar (works very well)

Step 1. Now count the number of those mobs in that area (In this case its all the mobs in the orchord and all quests in the orchord) vs the total of all mobs in the all of that area and find the % of the first number to the second I'm guessing its about 2% smiting viability
Now do the same thing for a Rad 2 GS rapier for a toon thats speced for DPS of the same level as the smiting toon use in the first equation, where the first number for the Rad 2 is all mobs where that DPS is the choice viability do to it is the leader in swing per kill ratio.

Not that I'm saying the viability % should be equal between smite and Teir 3 Rad 2 here but what I am saying is that is that this huge difference is the first indication of the GS imbalance.

Vale of Twilight - Stone Scorpions (works very well) and Stone Golems (works very well)

Repeat step 1

Reaver's Refuge - Flesh Golems (works very well)

Repeat step 1

Amrath - Iron Golems (works sometimes) and Clay Golems (works sometimes)

Repeat step one but instead of smiting use an improved cursespewing rapier of smiting to possibly even put smiting in the context of viable here since to be viable it has to be the choice weapon in swing to kill ratio.



Acid Wit - Acid-Stone Elementals (works far better than straight damage due to having high AC/HP, yet a will save around ~6)
Into the Demons Den - Everything in there is extraplanar.

Repeat step 1.

There is plenty of older content they work beautifully in (and if your argument is about a Wounding of Puncturing Rapier which can have ML 8 at its lowest, they you should be including content in those levels because banishing weaponry can be used in them as well instead of dismissing it).

content that is not from the context of where the average players are playing from level 12 to 20 do not come into the equation because GS min level req is 12 and GS is the constant variable.

Works in Epic (and often used due to high AC of the critters).
Works on any monster in DDO.

This is improved destruction that we are talking about right? In epic content I dont think that +4 to hit is making or braking any one who knows how to build a tank right, but if it does work on all epic mobs and all red and purple names I would say its viable enuff to take up to back pack spaces.
Point is that if you asked me to run a epic von 1 with you and you needed a tank and had to the bring ether my shroud DPS ( since I dont have a SOS yet or 36 level 18 +5 holy Greater banes) or a improved destruction of my choice.... I would have to say the viability of the GS DPS is 100 time more important then the improved destruction


Like many other folks, we'd love it if you could derive your 5% viability number. There is also viability beyond "swings per kill", such as stopping a critter due to helplessness.

Referance step 1 The weapon viability percentage is derived by the time where that the weapon is the choice weapon type in that it is the leader in the kill per swing ratio (there are some very small exceptions). Purely the most effective tool for that job. Then the ammount of contexts that are found vs all other contexts where that weapon is not the choice weapon creates the ratio which then the percentage is derived from that.

I've always found any of the Inspired Quarter/Dreaming Dark quests on elite with Inspired Menders to be a wonderful place, such as a few of the rooms in The Mindsunder, being they love their Death Ward Mass. Getting them down to an auto-crit status is good for damage (at ~4000+ HP, each hit as a crit adds up quick). Although, for that situation I do prefer Wounding [Icy Burst] Picks of Maiming, a Wounding of Puncturing Rapier will do wonders at quickly immobilizing them.

I found viability for w/p in IQ also. which is why its about 1/20 of what it was pre nerf instead of 0/20

The game is larger than things from Module 8 and on. Be fair, make sure to include everything that could realistically use your weapon(s) of choice.

Green Steals min level is 12 and of the players that run level 12 to 20 quests end game quests hold a majority of that time. Mainly Shroud, sub terrane, epic, IQ, Armrath.

[ProdigalGuru]

1 greensteel item takes a TON of money or time.... MANY runs....

WoP came out of chests and end rewards.



The fact that he was willing to pay so much for them proves they were broken.

[Visty]

Back sorry just because I am a stickler for not being too insanely drunk to remember things, I knew you could get into the vale at 12 got my barb up to 12 today not a big feat she was at 10 thought she was lower. And just as I thought you can get Meridia bestowed on you at 12 run threw the vale and get the start of the shroud flagging quests pics below:


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eattwelve1.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eattwelve2.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...eattwelve3.jpg




this just helps my previous arguement some of us can and have started our characters threw that area early because we remember when it was the norm. Now with tr and stuff people do it later but for me my first builds always get that run done at 12 and if any guild mates are on and want to start flagging early to get it out the way we do it. Greensteels are still not easy to come by even if you do start early with them even with a ton of alts who can run the shroud Im no where near deep on getting stuff made. things change and we adapt to them op sure losing the way w/p worked hurt at first but many of us got over it since it was more luck of the draw with loot or buying said items. Greensteels require a lot of work put into them, I think many people would balk if they were nerfed.

i feel corrected then, thought it was 14

anyway, by the time you get your greensteel youre not lvl12 anymore, youre around lvl16 if not higher

[sephiroth1084]

Okay, look at it this way: How often would you be using any of those weapons in place of any decent DPS weapon?

If you have a solid DPS weapon for a given situation, would you use something else?
+2 Adamantine whatever of Greater Construct Bane, or a Smiter?
+2 Holy whatever of Pure Good or a Banisher?
+2 Holy whatever of Pure Good or a Vorpal?

How often are you choosing the specialty weapon?

I don't know about everyone else, but I tend to go with the DPS weapon unless the monster has very high HP or fairly poor saves. For example, in Rainbow I use the Smiter, but in Fleshmaker's and Amrath, I'm more likely to use the GCB.

That WoP was almost always the better choice is what got it nerfed.

Yes, greensteel weapons trump the normal DPS weapons in many cases, though not all, comparing the GS to the other stuff is like comparing apples to oranges.

[Kalari]

i feel corrected then, thought it was 14

anyway, by the time you get your greensteel youre not lvl12 anymore, youre around lvl16 if not higher

Np visty I just couldnt remember so had to check it I just like binding there early since I know im going to end up in that place more then any other area in the game

[osirisisis]

okay, Look At It This Way: How Often Would You Be Using Any Of Those Weapons In Place Of any Decent Dps Weapon?

If You Have A Solid Dps Weapon For A Given Situation, Would You Use Something Else?
+2 Adamantine Whatever Of Greater Construct Bane, Or A Smiter?
+2 Holy Whatever Of Pure Good Or A Banisher?
+2 Holy Whatever Of Pure Good Or A Vorpal?


in Viability Context Level 12 To Epic Mele Players Probably Have These Items Equipped, On An Average Time Frame, In A Combat Situations, If They Have All These Weapons Available , Something To The Tune Of:

Smiting Less The 1%
Gcb Around 2%
Banishing 3%
Vorpal 15%
All Over Greater Banes 9%
Shroud Craft Dps 69%

If This Is Not The Definition Of Imbalanced I Don't Know What Is. To Also Note Most Of The Greater Banes Have To Be Level 16 To 20 Which Is 4 To 8 Min. Levels Higher Then The Gs To Obtain Viability.



How Often Are You Choosing The Specialty Weapon?

I Don't Know About Everyone Else, But I Tend To Go With The Dps Weapon Unless The Monster Has very High Hp or Fairly Poor Saves. For Example, In Rainbow I Use The Smiter, But In Fleshmaker's And Amrath, I'm More Likely To Use The Gcb.

That Wop Was Almost always The Better Choice Is What Got It Nerfed.

Yes, Greensteel Weapons Trump The Normal Dps Weapons In Many Cases, Though Not All, Comparing The Gs To The Other Stuff Is Like Comparing Apples To Oranges.

88

[FluffyCalico]

You do know they have nerfed greensteel several times
1) True rez clicks
2) Mineral II
3) summon clickies

So please don't come here and say they won't nerf any greensteel items as they already have nerfed them at least 3 times.

[osirisisis]

You do know they have nerfed greensteel several times
1) True rez clicks
2) Mineral II
3) summon clickies

So please don't come here and say they won't nerf any greensteel items as they already have nerfed them at least 3 times.

Did I come here an say "they won't nerf any greensteel items"
In the OP the question to the design team is "why is green steel to good to nerf" after the past history trend was presented.


And as for the nerfs you mentioned they are extremely trivial... and you know that..
If they move GS to min level 16, drop the +2 to damage, and change good burst to just pure good then we would have something worth talking about and would see a balance to begin to form in this very, very lopsided GS context.

[sephiroth1084]

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084
okay, Look At It This Way: How Often Would You Be Using Any Of Those Weapons In Place Of any Decent Dps Weapon?

If You Have A Solid Dps Weapon For A Given Situation, Would You Use Something Else?
+2 Adamantine Whatever Of Greater Construct Bane, Or A Smiter?
+2 Holy Whatever Of Pure Good Or A Banisher?
+2 Holy Whatever Of Pure Good Or A Vorpal?


in Viability Context Level 12 To Epic Mele Players Probably Have These Items Equipped, On An Average Time Frame, In A Combat Situations, If They Have All These Weapons Available , Something To The Tune Of:

Smiting Less The 1%
Gcb Around 2%
Banishing 3%
Vorpal 15%
All Over Greater Banes 9%
Shroud Craft Dps 69%

If This Is Not The Definition Of Imbalanced I Don't Know What Is. To Also Note Most Of The Greater Banes Have To Be Level 16 To 20 Which Is 4 To 8 Min. Levels Higher Then The Gs To Obtain Viability.



How Often Are You Choosing The Specialty Weapon?

I Don't Know About Everyone Else, But I Tend To Go With The Dps Weapon Unless The Monster Has very High Hp or Fairly Poor Saves. For Example, In Rainbow I Use The Smiter, But In Fleshmaker's And Amrath, I'm More Likely To Use The Gcb.

That Wop Was Almost always The Better Choice Is What Got It Nerfed.

Yes, Greensteel Weapons Trump The Normal Dps Weapons In Many Cases, Though Not All, Comparing The Gs To The Other Stuff Is Like Comparing88

I have no idea what you said here. AND you completely ignored my point.

So I will restate it for you: in how many situations would use choose a niche weapon over a straight-up DPS weapon? I'm not talking about greensteels, I'm talking about your +5 Holy of Pure Good, your +2 Shocking Burst of Greater whatever Bane...

And don't give me that ******** about these being much higher ML. +2 elemental burst of Greater Bane is something like ML 8 or 10. I know, because I have a half dozen of those on my archer. And don't throw out a bunch of completely meaningless, made up percentages.

Pull out some scenarios where you would be choosing between using a Banisher, Vorpal, Smiter, etc... or a DPS weapon. How often are you not using the DPSer?

[osirisisis]

I have no idea what you said here. AND you completely ignored my point.

You should have an idea what I posted it was quite simple. You ask what how often I use DPS and I gave you estimated averages in a percent.

So I will restate it for you: in how many situations would use choose a niche weapon over a straight-up DPS weapon? I'm not talking about greensteels, I'm talking about your +5 Holy of Pure Good, your +2 Shocking Burst of Greater whatever Bane...

Its not really about me its about what everyone uses in the game as a whole. Just add the the GS percent with the greater bane percent and you have your how often I use DPS answer.

And don't give me that ******** about these being much higher ML. +2 elemental burst of Greater Bane is something like ML 8 or 10. I know, because I have a half dozen of those on my archer. And don't throw out a bunch of completely meaningless, made up percentages.

This discussion is the about GS and its min level 12 requirement and its imbalance over the rest of the game so anything below level 12 doesn't apply here.

Pull out some scenarios where you would be choosing between using a Banisher, Vorpal, Smiter, etc... or a DPS weapon. How often are you not using the DPSer?

I think you need to lay off the boos..

[sephiroth1084]

I think you need to lay off the boos..

I think you need to learn some reading comprehension and then how to present an idea effectively.

Your point is that the ML of GS is too low, but several people have already pointed out that the only people who get GS items at level 12 are TR'ed characters, which is one of the few things that makes TRing fun. The game shouldn't be balanced around true reincarnating.

MY point, is that any good DPS weapon would trump most of the specialty weapons in most situations, and that while greensteel weapons are better than almost all random loot, your comparison fails, because you aren't taking that into account.

In most situations, people tend to use DPS weapons. If you want to argue that GS needs to be reduced in effectiveness in order for it to not trump just about every other weapon in the game, that's one thing, but the ML on GS items has nothing to do with that argument.