To good to nerf green steal.

[SquelchHU]

1) Since only TRs have greensteel at 12-16 (and I challenge you to make a new character now and pug enough shrouds to get a tier3 item by lvl 15), then non-TRs are already using random loot items till 16+. This would change NOTHING for non-TRs.

2) Necro tome pages already are viable. Skivver is the best offhand caster item currently in game. The rest suck (except maybe deathnips), but they were designed to suck, and sucked when the cap was 14 too. Nerfing greensteel won't make these viable. Combine that with tome page drop rate (Estimated to be 1 in 100 based on my own experience), and you will get ZERO people with tome page sets before lvl 20, unless they buy them off the AH. Again, nothing would change for non-TRs.

3) Nerfing greensteel to lvl 18? That makes less sense than your tome page argument. First the loot would be higher level than the raid itself, which goes against all other raid loot rules. Second, non-TRs STILL wont have a tier 3 greensteel by lvl 18, unless starting at lvl 17 they do nothing but farm the shroud 1-4 until they get all their shards and their materials. Once more, nothing changes for non-TRs.

Until people can reasonably be expected to gain enough power shards and materials to get a tier 3 item before lvl 16, there is no point to nerfing of the greensteel min lvl. You might think it will change how the loot tables of lvl 12-16 are seen, but it will not.

You're wasting your time. The 'raise greensteel ML' argument never had any merit or meaning to begin with, and the fact he's only sticking to it because he tried to speculate WoP value and failed, so he wants everything else nerfed too makes it even less valid.

He's not even pretending he has a point anymore, he's making out as if greensteel is '285% better' or something.

Unless he found a secret recipe that makes you do over 1k DPS with a greensteel weapon this claim is of course laughable.

[osirisisis]

Its your opinion, your entitled to it. I dont really read these forums much anymore, but whenever I see a thread you post in, it always contains this same topic. Dude, let w/p topic die.

You should look a little harder on the fourms if your claim is all I post about is w/p........
IE this link

[BlackSteel]

You should look a little harder on the fourms if your claim is all I post about is w/p........
IE this link

which contains the obligatory w/p whine about half way down, nice that you mock yourself with it tho, props for that.

[osirisisis]

Here's a quote (not my quote, just a random one) from one of your w/p threads back on 4-13-2009



Let's not return to those days, eh?

Thrudh I'm sure not going to base how I express my opinion on these fourms due to what appears to me to be some what of a "Juvenile" responses that I get. I come here to logically hold a position in an adult manner. Those that can't do that come here and in most cases resort to name calling or resort to cohesion. A great example of this is

lithic vs the broken record club.

Lithic comes here and he holds and intelligent position. His position is that what ever balance that a Greensteal min level nerf may or many not create for the game, the side effect of the presser that it would put on the huge grind of TRs would out weight any positive benefits.

The broken record club really doesn't have that much to say thats intelleagent or logical so they just come here and resort to name calling.

My position is that when the shroud crafting system was introduced I experienced DDO switching from a hybrid system of some what of a balanced between end game toons being geared with random un bound loot system gear and binded gear, to a very dominate binded system end game geared context. The massive "magic bloat" and very unnatural strength growth curve of the shroud gear and the w/p nerf topics that I post on are just components of that switching. This switching is concerning for me for to reasons:
1. I found the game dramatically declined in entertainment quality for me.
2. End game binded, magic bloat, grind like drone so you look like a clone type games have a past history of failing or becomeing boring like W.O.W is and I want to see DDO stick with its hybrid system so it can be different and use that difference and its many others to be the best MMO on the market.

Now what it appears your doing is a form of cohesion. Hand picking a negative juvenile response to one of my threads in an attempt to get me to stop posting on my opinion of changes and improvement I think would be good for DDO, in an atemp to worrie me about embassing my self.

So the next time you respond I would invite you to hold a position and support it with logic.

[osirisisis]

which contains the obligatory w/p whine about half way down, nice that you mock yourself with it tho, props for that.

Far from the truth... That post has over 60 non w/p context ideas to it, and I was responding to someone who said all they see is me talking about w/p.

[osirisisis]

Translation: I got nerfed so I want you nerfed too, and I'm going to outright lie to try and get you nerfed.

Fail. Just. Fail.

This may be your translation, but its not the correct one.

[BlackSteel]

Far from the truth... That post has over 60 non w/p context ideas to it, and I was responding to someone who said all they see is me talking about w/p.

couldnt you have gotten your point across in the original post just fine tho w/o even bringing up w/p? No long standing forumite is going to take any of this seriously as long as you continue to include it

[osirisisis]

difference is pretty clear

1) green steel requires a grind mechanic and a crafting mechanic also makes it bound to character as it is treated as raid loot ..

2) W/P is not gimped at all ... only people who think so are people who dont understand what happened ... the problem with w/p origionally is that it had a higher kill success then vorpal based on the fact that generally mobs con score is lower then str.

"w/p is not gimed at all" This is far from the truth in that the tests that I done w/p post nerf has gone to a swing per hit ratio that is basically useless and maybe 5% viable in game today, as for w/p advantage over vorpal it was well deserved due to its intense 6 mill plat cost and extreme rarity over the common vorpal.

if a dual wielder could take away 30 con in 10 seconds and it would take considerably more time on average to vorpal then it made all other weapons in the game useless in comparison .... since w/p is a randomly generated loot rather then crafted loot this didnt make any sense.

"shroud craft didnt make any sense" I think fail to understand that w/p doesn't work on red/purple names and if they would of never nerf it Shroud craft DPS would still be extremely viable if all most mandatory in end game play like it is now.

instead now when con is 0 they are stunned which takes an additional what 2 hits to kill them ... wow so gimped ..

This sound like a very naive comment and is far from the truth when it comes to swing per kill pre nerf and post nerf.

anyone who doesnt want there w/p weapons and thinks they are **** i am more then willing to trade large bones for them ... shoot i will give you 3 large bones for every w/p rapier or dagger you have ... send tell on sarlona to confusious and i am glad to take all your finessable w/p melee weapons.

3) Nerfing weapons doesnt make sense (with the exception of epic versions as it doesnt really relate to epic anyway) especially not weapons that have been crafted


but technically green steel already got a nerf this round as twfs got screwed ... if you own two of the same greensteel your proc rate is now practically halfed from what it is on live currently ... and turbines response to this was "but now you can have twice as many different procs which is still an advantage over THF or s&b" but we pay twice the cost and that kinda slipped there mind as is.

What ever nerfs Green steel has had in the past it is crumbs to what w/p got and still by no means has brought it any where near its random loot counter part.

...............

green steel doesnt need nerfing

classes dont need nerfing

weapon styles dont need nerfing

TURBINE NEEDS TO START NERFING THEMSELVES ... cause they have no clue what players want in there game anymore.

I would go as far as un nerfing w/p and raising its rarity to bring back balance to the random loot/ binded loot hybrid

[Dendrix]

If your position is that w/p should of been nerf because it would of became a requirement to have one to play do to trash mob challenge factor then I would say there might be some crubs of truth to this be not much.

That is exactly the point. They become "required"

[osirisisis]

w/p Was Not Op. It Was Fun Trash Mob Tech.

A Greensteel Ml Nerf Would Be Equally As Dumb. It Only Matters For Tr's And Unless The Goal Is To Make Playing A Tr Even More Dull And Boring What Is The Point? Tr's Right Now Goes As Follows...

Run Quests Under Your Level.
Re-run High Xp Quests Under Your Level To Death.
Don't Level Until You Can't Gain Anymore Experience Without Leveling First.
The Whole Time Have No Issues Completing Quests Because They Are All Under Level And You Have Run Them 100's Of Times Before.

i Agree That Dull And Boring Lowers The Quality Of The Game And Find That Lowering The Tr Exp Bloat To 1.9 Where It Should Be Is An Issue That Needs To Be Address Green Steel Nerf Or Not.

Without Gs These Junk Quests Level 11-14 Would Just Take A Little Longer. It's Not Going To Make The Content Challenging. All It Does Is Slow Us Down A Little And Require More Weapon Sets For That Level Range.

It Would Bring Green Steel Closer To Balance With The Random Unbound Loot System A Element Of The Game That I Think Need A Great Deal Of Attention.

what You Have Said Here Is Very Similar To The W/p Context In That All W/p Did Was Make Un Challenge Grind Trash Mob Clean Up Faster. But Yet It Was Nerfed Into Almost Non Exsitances.

88

[osirisisis]

couldnt you have gotten your point across in the original post just fine tho w/o even bringing up w/p? No long standing forumite is going to take any of this seriously as long as you continue to include it

No

The intent of the OP was to show turbine past history of dramatically nerf something that was less imbalanced then the present 280% imbalance of green steel and is even causing great deal of player discomfort and client problelms with lag, and to present the question of what is the logic behind something that seems to be way more of a imbalance and a technical problem being "to good to nerf" given the past trend.

[Vynnt]

OP, you keep on dismissing the argument that it only effects TRs. Okay, your opinion is that TR xp bloat is broken. But really, what would changing ML 12 to ML 16 do for non-TRs? It would be extremely hard for a level 12-15 non-TR to get a T3 greensteel item.

As previously mentioned, you would need to flag for Shroud, get in a Shroud group, get all the required shards (assuming the mats were xfered over from another character), and go all the way to completion.

How many people do you know do this before 16? The market for level 12-16 weapons is still there, except for TRs which might already have T3 items.

[Thrudh]

Far from the truth... That post has over 60 non w/p context ideas to it, and I was responding to someone who said all they see is me talking about w/p.

Of course no Osiris thread would be complete with out some dialog on w/p

Heh.

[Thrudh]

I would go as far as un nerfing w/p and raising its rarity to bring back balance to the random loot/ binded loot hybrid

I agree that random loot tables need some major boosting... Making w/p rapiers "rarer" after you've already acquired six of them is a pretty lame suggestion though.

[cpito]

God what would I do with out all these highly intelligent and logical responses to my posts.

We've tried those since the wop nerf was announced.

We got past it and became tired of sounding like:

At some point, valid or not, the same argument put forth time and again and again and again starts to sound like whining. Whining grows tiresome... quickly and while it unfortunately gets too many people what they want, in this case it should be clear to you that the battle is lost.

To be honest, I'm sure I'm not the only one who says "give it a rest" because we're a little concerned. You're beating your head against a brick wall over a minor nerf to pixels and it can't be healthy.

[Irinis]

OP, you keep on dismissing the argument that it only effects TRs. Okay, your opinion is that TR xp bloat is broken. But really, what would changing ML 12 to ML 16 do for non-TRs? It would be extremely hard for a level 12-15 non-TR to get a T3 greensteel item.

As previously mentioned, you would need to flag for Shroud, get in a Shroud group, get all the required shards (assuming the mats were xfered over from another character), and go all the way to completion.

How many people do you know do this before 16? The market for level 12-16 weapons is still there, except for TRs which might already have T3 items.

As a new player, my first character to 20 has 2 greensteel items one of which is dual shard, before I TRd her. My second character to 20 only has T3 (dual shard) on ONE item because guildies lent me scales (I still owe one scale) and my third character isn't 20 yet and can't do T3 yet because of lack of scales, despite two level 20s grinding Shroud for ings to pass down, and despite going into Shroud at 15 and getting all her shards for 2 items (one dual sharded) within 3 runs. It will take several MONTHS after reaching 20 for her to have T3 greensteel with only two characters grinding Shroud.

ML12 greensteel for TRs is awesome.

I'd be fine with a greensteel rebalance IF accompanied by a mob HP rebalance but the ML needs to stay where it is. The only true advantage of TR is early access to greensteel. The extra build points are pretty nice, sure... but a well-built 32pt is fine.

[lostx]

[Gol]

No offense osirisis, but almost a year after the WoP nerf, one would think you'd have dropped it by now.

+1 to Trillea

[osirisisis]

No offense osirisis, but almost a year after the WoP nerf, one would think you'd have dropped it by now.

+1 to Trillea

No offense Gol, but you can reference post #65 of this thread and go hang out with the broken record club if you would like.

[osirisisis]

Thx lostx

Anyone want to take a stab at the percentage viability, in just DPS, not including the ele clickie, of that weapon vs its random loot table +3 flaming pure good counter part .... I'm going to go with 250% or so at least.
Really what was turbine thinking when the topic of natural weapon to level growth ratio was brought up when they were thinking about introducing this weapon into the game?