So now that we know the nerf isn't getting rid of DPS lag

[R0cksteady]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

[Weeday]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

I've read all over that a 10% decrease in attack speed across the board will result in a complete and total uproar from the community as it has happened before.

[drac317]

I've read all over that a 10% decrease in attack speed across the board will result in a complete and total uproar from the community as it has happened before.

yup,it sure did

[R0cksteady]

We're already getting an attack speed drop on a LOT of classes, and how could it not be a better nerf than what we have now, which is already an uproar.

[azrael4h]

I've read all over that a 10% decrease in attack speed across the board will result in a complete and total uproar from the community as it has happened before.

As opposed to a complete uproar from everybody with any sense? Basically the only way you can agree with the current nerf is if you are employed by Turbine, and thus want the nerf to happen (for the real reason it's happening) or S&B 8 STR dagger users who can't get through Heyton's Rest and want the game "easier" to play.

And the real reason this nerf is happening is to force a short-term boost to store revenues by forcing reincarnations of all those affected, as well as longer term boost by increasing the grind and forcing people to buy more healing and sp pots. Though as it starts to push the game away from the faster paced combat that gives it an edge over other, crappier, MMO's, the long term prospects are much more grim.

[R0cksteady]

Let me just put it this way, to the devs.

Most people are against these changes, or at least most of them. It's unbalancing classes more than adding any balance. It's breaking builds, and causing you guys to have to do a lot of work to try and balance monks out again, while looking at every class from different angles to try and rebalance. And it didn't fix the lag, or even help it in any way that people who have tested can measure.

So why make a lot of people's play experience worse, causing an uproar, and cause you guys to have to do more work than needed. For what purpose?

Why not just remove the twitching "glitch" and fix that attack chain, and lower attack speeds by 10%. A lot of classes are already getting that slowdown anyway. After these changes, if you want to rebalance things, you could always add an attack to the THF chain. This way, we don't have to deal with the reduced offhand procs, or lose the glancing blows while moving, keep a lot of people happy, and scale every class down equally, while tweaking classes a bit if you still don't think it's balanced.

[Shade]

Why not just remove the twitching "glitch" and fix that attack chain,.

You have any idea what your suggesting?

2 ludicrous things:
1) That twitch attack is any way a "glitch" . Theres no logic to that. No where has a dev ever stated that. Do you even know how what it means?
2) That you could "fix it" without irreparably destroying the combat system.

Twitch attack is nothing more then moving while attacking.
To remove that, is to to remove moving while attacking.

To do what you suggesting would mean that no one would be able to move while attacking anymore. Niot TWF, not THF, no rangers, and for balance, not even casters should be able to cast while moving.

Does that sound fun to you?

Think things through before you make suggestions.

What needs to be done is all attack speed nerfs need to be reverted by giving everyone a +10% boost across the board. Classes with double strikes could retain those benefits.
The combat nerfs for both TWF And THF should be shelved as they aren't helping the game in any way.
The internal change to TWF to make it reduce lag can be implemented without nerfing the style.
More internal optimizations and better servers is whats needed in the end to complete fix the lag. Not nerfs.

[azrael4h]

Let me just put it this way, to the devs.

Most people are against these changes, or at least most of them. It's unbalancing classes more than adding any balance. It's breaking builds, and causing you guys to have to do a lot of work to try and balance monks out again, while looking at every class from different angles to try and rebalance. And it didn't fix the lag, or even help it in any way that people who have tested can measure.

So why make a lot of people's play experience worse, causing an uproar, and cause you guys to have to do more work than needed. For what purpose?

Why not just remove the twitching "glitch" and fix that attack chain, and lower attack speeds by 10%. A lot of classes are already getting that slowdown anyway. After these changes, if you want to rebalance things, you could always add an attack to the THF chain. This way, we don't have to deal with the reduced offhand procs, or lose the glancing blows while moving, keep a lot of people happy, and scale every class down equally, while tweaking classes a bit if you still don't think it's balanced.

As said, the purpose is the hope of a boost in store revenues. Nothing will change, as the customer (all of us who paid money, either for points or VIP) doesn't matter.

I didn't even think about Monks being hit so hard that they're no longer viable save as a multiclass. I already deleted mine, since I hated the Halfling walk and never played her. Considered making another, but I guess I won't.

For the record, I only had my Ranger (Rouge 1/Ranger 5 Exploiter) and Monk for TWF (ok, technically I have two weapons on my Wiz, but that's less for combat and more for spell casting bonuses). All my others used THF if they fought in melee semi-regularly.

[R0cksteady]

You have any idea what your suggesting?

2 ludicrous things:
1) That twitch attack is any way a "glitch" . Theres no logic to that. No where has a dev ever stated that. Do you even know how what it means?
2) That you could "fix it" without irreparably destroying the combat system.

Twitch attack is nothing more then moving while attacking.
To remove that, is to to remove moving while attacking.

To do what you suggesting would mean that no one would be able to move while attacking anymore. Niot TWF, not THF, no rangers, and for balance, not even casters should be able to cast while moving.

Does that sound fun to you?

Think things through before you make suggestions.

What needs to be done is all attack speed nerfs need to be reverted by giving everyone a +10% boost across the board. Classes with double strikes could retain those benefits.
The combat nerfs for both TWF And THF should be shelved as they aren't helping the game in any way.
The internal change to TWF to make it reduce lag can be implemented without nerfing the style.
More internal optimizations and better servers is whats needed in the end to complete fix the lag. Not nerfs.

Uhh, twitch fighting being fixed doesn't mean they have to stop moving while attacking. Twitch fighting is a mistake in the coding, which causes THF to get more attacks by moving a specific way, breakign the attack chain. They could easily fix the attack chain to stop that.

Also, the internal changes to TWF are NOT improving the lag anyway, so there's no point in doing it without nerfing. It is MEANT to be a nerf. The devs will nerf whether it's done this way or not.

And they've already responded to the server suggestions by saying they've already had major overhauls on them. They wont be doing it again for awhile, for obvious reasons. There's a huge influx of people entering and leaving the game. It's obvious they would want to see exactly how much work they need to do to the servers before they do it.

[BlackSteel]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

tempest has one of the largest nerfs out of TWF............

[R0cksteady]

tempest has one of the largest nerfs out of TWF............

That's just not true at all. Tempest, and then rangers, have the least amount of nerf from this, since STWF isn't making the game. Tempest will still have more offhand attacks than any other class, plus their 5% doublestrike.

[Shade]

Uhh, twitch fighting being fixed doesn't mean they have to stop moving while attacking.

First it can't be "fixxed" you fix whats broken, there's nothing broken here.

And yea it would mean exactly that as you propose it. You really haven't thought this out at all.

It's really pretty basic tho. Twtich attack involves using an atack while moving in quick succession, it requires real player skill, very strong attack bonuses as you take a constant attack penalty ,and it nets you very little dps gain. It does not cause any lag like twf does and is not a big deal that warrants any type of nerf. There is no logic to what your trying to argue.

The only way to prevent it from happening as you suggest, would be removing the ability to attack while moving. There is no other logical way.

And your arrogant to say that this is not intended, you are not a dev and that is pure conjecture.

They won't make any attempt to change it for update5. It will still be useful for certain characters in certain situations.

[BlackSteel]

That's just not true at all. Tempest, and then rangers, have the least amount of nerf from this, since STWF isn't making the game. Tempest will still have more offhand attacks than any other class, plus their 5% doublestrike.

except for the part where their 10% speed is now 10% offhand at tier 1, which makes every lvl 6 splash upset.

and their extra attack which was 100% at lvl 18 is now a double strike chance. I'm not gonna dig thru the super duper combat thread again, but Tempests do indeed lose out the most out of TWF characters (except perhaps some strange multiclasses)

[R0cksteady]

First it can't be "fixxed" you fix whats broken, there's nothing broken here.

And yea it would mean exactly that as you propose it. You really haven't thought this out at all.

It's really pretty basic tho. Twtich attack involves using an atack while moving in quick succession, it requires real player skill, very strong attack bonuses as you take a constant attack penalty ,and it nets you very little dps gain. It does not cause any lag like twf does and is not a big deal that warrants any type of nerf. There is no logic to what your trying to argue.

The only way to prevent it from happening as you suggest, would be removing the ability to attack while moving. There is no other logical way.

And your arrogant to say that this is not intended, you are not a dev and that is pure conjecture.

They won't make any attempt to change it for update5. It will still be useful for certain characters in certain situations.

You're acting like the nerf is actually because of lag. Why would they have nerfed glancing blows like they did? For lag? nope. Also, the TWF change didn't help lag. There's really no reason to nerf at all. But the devs obviously wanted to nerf both styles, and I was just giving them an idea.

Obviously twitching wasn't meant to be implemented, as the removing of glancing blows while moving was obviously a quick fix to stop the DPS boost it gave people.

[R0cksteady]

except for the part where their 10% speed is now 10% offhand at tier 1, which makes every lvl 6 splash upset.

and their extra attack which was 100% at lvl 18 is now a double strike chance. I'm not gonna dig thru the super duper combat thread again, but Tempests do indeed lose out the most out of TWF characters (except perhaps some strange multiclasses)

Yeah, the multiclasses with 6 ranger is getting hit hard. but a pure tempest isn't getting hit that hard. Losing that extra attack, how does that compare to a fighter losing 30% of their offhand procs? Fighters were at 110%/110% and are now sitting at 110%/80%.

[Melyc'inya]

They won't make any attempt to change it for update5.

And you're arrogant to say that this is not intended, you are not a dev and that is pure conjecture.

I'm just sayin'.

[FluffyCalico]

First it can't be "fixxed" you fix whats broken, there's nothing broken here.

.

People being able to intentionally break the swing timer in a manner that produces unintended swing speed and dps is broken. And yes they are trying to fix it the easy way instead of the correct way. Make the deley between the first swing and the next first swing due to moving equal to the total time of the chain of swings/the # of swings. IE what they should have done with all classes all along. Then they could leave glancing blows alone. Twitch was an unintened side effect combined from moving breaking the chain which is an intentional penalty, and getting a DPS boost due to a programmer that wasn't thinking stright at all when he wanted to make the swings look good rather than be at a nominal pace with each other in the chain. Twich swing speed is an unintended error resulting from devs thinking swings 3-4 looked better with more animation time. Nothing more nothing less.

[mediocresurgeon]

You have any idea what your suggesting?

2 ludicrous things:
1) That twitch attack is any way a "glitch" . Theres no logic to that. No where has a dev ever stated that. Do you even know how what it means?
2) That you could "fix it" without irreparably destroying the combat system.

Twitch attack is nothing more then moving while attacking.
To remove that, is to to remove moving while attacking.

To do what you suggesting would mean that no one would be able to move while attacking anymore. Niot TWF, not THF, no rangers, and for balance, not even casters should be able to cast while moving.

Does that sound fun to you?

Think things through before you make suggestions.

What needs to be done is all attack speed nerfs need to be reverted by giving everyone a +10% boost across the board. Classes with double strikes could retain those benefits.
The combat nerfs for both TWF And THF should be shelved as they aren't helping the game in any way.
The internal change to TWF to make it reduce lag can be implemented without nerfing the style.
More internal optimizations and better servers is whats needed in the end to complete fix the lag. Not nerfs.

Remember back when moving while attacking gave a faster attack speed, regardless of your combat style? Everyone was running directly into mobs they were attacking, so that they could stand-still-while-moving and get a faster attack animation. (Spring attack was very popular in this time period.) The Devs fixed it by slowing down the attack animation while moving--but they did it incorrectly, so that you could animation-cancel while THFing. I have been expecting for 2 years now to see a similar change--not because I think one is necessary, but because I suspect the Devs think one is necessary. (Whether or not they'd be right or wrong in this is a subject for another time.)

I am expecting that eventually, THF Twitch will get nerfed. All the Devs have to do is make it so that players get better DPS without animation canceling than they do when they interrupt attack animations, and people will lose interest.

Removing glancing blows while moving was NOT the best way to "fix" this, (if that is actually what they were trying). Removing glancing blows while moving is an enormous DPS nerf to all THFers, not just the THF twitchers, since you can move while THFing without actually utilizing a "Twitch" style (using the animation sequence unskilled moving THFers usually see) and these players still get penalized.

[Shade]

Remember back when moving while attacking gave a faster attack speed, regardless of your combat style?

Was always true for THF and SnB. Still is today.

Was never true for TWF. Well perhaps at 0-1 bab when you only had one attack anyways, and attacking while moving always gave 2, once you get 3-4 attacks, it wasn't.

The animations never changed in the history of the game so I really have no idea what you talking about. Quote some release notes if you want to prove it. Because it never happened.

The only thing that changed was rather recent (update 0.1) when the THF attack speed while moving had a very minor nerf to make it closer to EQUAL (but still not quite) to THF auto attack.

The reason everyone constant moved back in beta while attacking years ago because we had a better caliber of player that understood that it was a plain smart idea as you take less damage and can still hit your enemies accurate. And the bigger factor of the fact we had no -4 attack penalty while moving. The animations were NOT different.

I am expecting that eventually, THF Twitch will get nerfed. All the Devs have to do is make it so that players get better DPS without animation canceling than they do when they interrupt attack animations, and people will lose interest.

lol. That's quite a long DOOM statement. Considering it's been like this since beta and no one lost interest yet. When it gonna happen? 50 years from now?

[BlackSteel]

The animations never changed in the history of the game so I really have no idea what you talking about. Quote some release notes if you want to prove it. Because it never happened.

actually not true, they did eliminate the 5th swing on both fighting styles, which bumped up attacks/min slightly, if they hadnt also slowed us down at the same time.

during the same update they attempted to unsuccessfully 'fix' twitch attacking. theres a dev quote of that one too, but someone else can drag it up.