do violent games 'create' violent people?

[phillymiket]

Personally I blame this guy:

Latest publicity photos

[drac317]

Personally I blame this guy:

you and me both.

but on a personal note, i was viloent long before there was violence in video games

[lolwatboomer]

That chart corresponds well with the points made by Kutner and Olson in Grand Theft Childhood, that the prevalence of video games and youth violence rates have been moving in *opposite* directions for years.

I particularly liked an example of false cause used by Ferguson in one of his articles:



Source: Ferguson, Christopher J. "Video Games: The Latest Scapegoat for Violence." Chronicle of Higher Education, vol. 53, June 22, 2007.

Link: http://www.tamiu.edu/~cferguson/VideoGames.html

very good read, would recommend it to the others in this thread.

would +rep but it says I gotta spread some around. :P

[Bronko]

What is Col. Grossman's evidence backing up that claim?

That is a valid question Borror0. I grant you that I didn't explain it in great detail as my goal was more to provided some research sources for the OP to consider.

I don't want to try and do a complete summary of Grossman's work, but in answer to your question I direct you to look at the relationship between Aggravated Assault, Murder, and Imprisonment rates in the US since 1957* you can seen an obvious increase over time. The author contends that this increase, especially as it applies to youth violence, can be attributed to the availability of killing enabling factors**. The worst part is that we are teaching people to kill without the "trigger safety" that we build into law enforcement officers and soldiers.

If you want to see what I'm talking about just go play a first-person shooter like Call of Duty. Then go to your nearest police academy and watch some cadets using the shooting similators. If you think they similarity is scary that's because the first generation similators used by the military were in fact just modified video games. Today's FPS games are refined versions of exactly what we use in law enforcement today.

Take a look at the number of school shootings in North America since 2000. If the numbers still don't begin to change your thinking I encourage you to join me for a day of work. It's scary out there. Bottom line: we are teaching our kids to kill.

But before anyone jumps on me for making that last statement I acknowledge that DDO:EU is a far cry from Grand Theft Auto. My son is allowed to play plenty of video games. Just not FPS stuff or anything where you get to play the "bad guy".

* Grossman, D. 1995. On Killing: the Psycological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. p. 300-301. New York: Back Bay Books

** Ibid. p. 187.

[Sirea]

Many FPS games and GTA are rated M for Mature, meaning they are intended for Adults.

It's the parent's fault that they ignore ESRB ratings and buy these games for their children. News Flash: M-RATED GAMES ARE NOT INTENDED FOR CHILDREN. So why on earth are parents buying them for 10 year olds? That's not that fault of the industry, it's the fault of the parents.

I've always kind of liked you Bronco, I'm a bit saddened that you've given in to the type of fear-mongering that anti-video game activists like to use to prove their points.

[Borror0]

/snip

Okay so, if I get this right, you have absolutely no peer-reviewed studies demonstrating the correlation between school shootings and violent video games? The recent increases in school shootings can be due to multiple other factors. It's important to remember that correlation does not imply causation. While it is true that video games can desensitize kids to violence, it is a leap in logic to claim that it also gets them to pick up a gun and shoot classmates.

[kaelis]

Violent Video Games do not Promote Violence.


***** parents who've never lifted a finger to discipline their child, or done any **** thing that works to control their children, plus think that their child is special, should be instantly recognized as such, and shouldn't ever have to do a **** thing to earn respect for themselves in this world, because it should be freely given to said child, promote violence.

lol bandy. I agree, many of my peers are snot nosed stuck up little punks that if anyone glares at them they wet their pants and plot revenge.

That is a valid question Borror0. I grant you that I didn't explain it in great detail as my goal was more to provided some research sources for the OP to consider.

I don't want to try and do a complete summary of Grossman's work, but in answer to your question I direct you to look at the relationship between Aggravated Assault, Murder, and Imprisonment rates in the US since 1957* you can seen an obvious increase over time. The author contends that this increase, especially as it applies to youth violence, can be attributed to the availability of killing enabling factors**. The worst part is that we are teaching people to kill without the "trigger safety" that we build into law enforcement officers and soldiers.

If you want to see what I'm talking about just go play a first-person shooter like Call of Duty. Then go to your nearest police academy and watch some cadets using the shooting similators. If you think they similarity is scary that's because the first generation similators used by the military were in fact just modified video games. Today's FPS games are refined versions of exactly what we use in law enforcement today.

Take a look at the number of school shootings in North America since 2000. If the numbers still don't begin to change your thinking I encourage you to join me for a day of work. It's scary out there. Bottom line: we are teaching our kids to kill.

But before anyone jumps on me for making that last statement I acknowledge that DDO:EU is a far cry from Grand Theft Auto. My son is allowed to play plenty of video games. Just not FPS stuff or anything where you get to play the "bad guy".

* Grossman, D. 1995. On Killing: the Psycological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. p. 300-301. New York: Back Bay Books

** Ibid. p. 187.

Don't ever use wikipedia as a source for numerical evidence to support a claim. It will only ever detract from your argument. Friendly reminder.


As to my thoughts on the subject. I'm torn. I started playing "violent" games at the age of 8 (if warcraft 2 and later diablo 2 can be called such) as well as most FPS games up til Modern warfare. I don't really think it "made" me a violent person as I haven't committed a major violent crime in my life, but that said, many people feel the need to point out that I have an anger problem occasionally, generally when dealing with stupid people I tend to snap with relative easy and show my temper.

[Bronko]

Many FPS games and GTA are rated M for Mature, meaning they are intended for Adults.

It's the parent's fault that they ignore ESRB ratings and buy these games for their children. News Flash: M-RATED GAMES ARE NOT INTENDED FOR CHILDREN. So why on earth are parents buying them for 10 year olds? That's not that fault of the industry, it's the fault of the parents.

I've always kind of liked you Bronco, I'm a bit saddened that you've given in to the type of fear-mongering that anti-video game activists like to use to prove their points.

Oh don't get me wrong. I love video games. I play them and I let my son play them. And I agree that the lack of parental control is exactly the problem. My point was more to direct the OP towards some current thoughts and research on the issue of video game and media violence as it relates to societal violence.

I'm not trying to fear-monger at all. But I do hope that what some of the leading researchers have to say on the issue have caused some people to think. Anyone can offer their opinion when the OP asks,

...whether you believe games promote violence or not.

But I challange the OP and others to consider if perhaps there is scientific research on the issue rather than just qualitative beliefs.

[Lewcipher]

I would have to say no, but I would have to say that this really isn't your best source for research.

Do cars promote drunk driving? Do airplanes promote unprovoked attacks?

If an elf screams in a forest and no one is around, does it really make a noise?

[picaisfun]

this topic reminds me of a movie I just watched

http://www.netflix.com/WiMovie/Rampa...0&trkid=438381

[lolwatboomer]

So Bronko, where's the evidence implicating video games as the culprit in these school shootings?

[Borror0]

lDon't ever use wikipedia as a source for numerical evidence to support a claim. It will only ever detract from your argument. Friendly reminder.

It's only a poor source to those who don't know how to read Wikipedia. Many article have references for each numerical value, pointing to a trustworthy site (though, that is not the case with that page where a lot of the data lacks any sort of reference).

[bokaboka]

Do video games make kids violent? Doubtful.
Do video games make violent kids better shots? I wouldn't be surprised.
Do video games make us all get used to the act of virtual killing after a while? Absolutely.

Also:
proper citations, nice paragraph structure, interesting introduction, revise at least once

[phillymiket]

Hey Bronko,
Sorry if I sounded too confrontational but I would point out your original stance was as follows.

There is a causal link between violence in video games and violence in society. If anyone disagrees with this they are kidding themselves and I will gladly accept all flames/attacks in contrast to my statement of fact.

You present the argument as if it were as simple as debating the existence of gravity. You present the opposing view as foolish therefore I feel it is fair play to label the information provided as “pseudo-science” rather than a statement of fact.

I direct you to look at the relationship between Aggravated Assault, Murder, and Imprisonment rates in the US since 1957* you can see an obvious increase over time

Once again, his figures stop at 1992 just before a precipitous decrease in youth violence. Is this an accurate assessment? Would it not be fairer to present the figures in their entirety? How does your argument explain the decrease?

The worst part is that we are teaching people to kill without the "trigger safety" that we build into law enforcement officers and soldiers. .

I would note the inclination of people to attach emotionally driven words like "teaching to kill" and “trigger safety” to describe phenomena. They are less fact presentation as they are meant to bring associative images that elicit the emotions the presenter wishes to invoke. i.e. “This is your brain on drugs” – Really? My brain is cracked open and fried like an egg? (I'm not in ANY way supporting drug use - illegal drugs are bad - but only pointing out the same techniques were used excessively in the 80s and in my opinion actually detracted from the anti-drug argument and therefore the war on drugs.)

If you want to see what I'm talking about just go play a first-person shooter like Call of Duty. Then go to your nearest police academy and watch some cadets using the shooting simulators. If you think they similarity is scary that's because the first generation simulators used by the military were in fact just modified video games. Today's FPS games are refined versions of exactly what we use in law enforcement today.

While I’ll grant you the point that video games seem to increase hand/eye coordination the mechanics of video games are nothing like the mechanics of firing a gun. I’m a gun enthusiast. Video games do not seem to help me shoot better. Law enforcement simulators probably use “gun like” controllers while standing at range in the firing stance one would use to fire a real gun (I don't know this, just a guess, but I doubt they use "WASD" or a game controller).
Basically, the super expensive golf simulators probably do help your golf game. Does Tiger Woods Golf? Does John Madden Football make me a better football player? No, I think not. In the future this may indeed become a very real issue as games become more and more immersive and realistic.

Take a look at the number of school shootings in North America since 2000. If the numbers still don't begin to change your thinking I encourage you to join me for a day of work. It's scary out there. Bottom line: we are teaching our kids to kill.

This is fallacious logic regardless of how scary it is out there. (See the Borror0 and Sirea references that correlation does not imply causation) By that same reasoning I could take the figures presented in the chart above regarding violence going down as video game sales go up and jump to the conclusion that video games decrease youth violence. Would that be accurate? No. There is no established link that finds the decrease of violence is related to the increase in sales therefore it would be an inaccurate use of the data and a bad argument.
It is my belief that we are best served by sticking to known scientific techniques and legitimate studies when dealing with an issue, especially one as grave as school shootings and youth violence. Jumping at the first shadow we see can do a disservice to a noble cause by minimizing the desire to find the real root of the problem.
The above statement basically sums up my pet peeve argument technique.
Misleading Data + Fear Words = Unsubstantiated Conclusion Presented As Fact.
It's not convincing, not to the adult me nor I suspect would it have been to the child me.

While I appreciate and respect your view, I find it frankly annoying that people often present issues involving “hot topics” (involving kids, religion, drugs etc) with erroneous data, faulty logic and emotionally charged language with the implication that to expect better data or to point out the faulty logic is “harming the kids” and “morally reprehensible” or somehow supporting the negative in question - youth violence in this case.
I'm not saying you implied anything of the sort, I just want some hard data that supports a claim before I’m willing to pull out the “ban hammer” on our freedoms.

I’ll concede some points on the desensitizing nature of video games but also point out that kids “laughing at stuff” is often a coping mechanism for dealing with difficult issues. When growing up there were three major “shock” events in my area: Budd Dwyer (local politician who blew his head off on live TV), Space Shuttle Challenger (shown live in the classroom), and the ‘M.O.V.E.’ incident (two city blocks unintentionally burned to the ground in front of our eyes by city police while dealing with a dangerous, radical group).

In all three cases there were callus and cruel jokes on the playground the very next day. Was this because we didn’t care or didn't realize the seriousness of the reality? It's hard to say, but I feel we were trying to come to grips with the horror by “venting”. It felt like expressing the terrible facts in a safe, play fashion (with jokes) allowed us a way to deal with it while not minimizing the reality of the terrible facts. Did the jokes desensitize us? Honestly, I don't know. Do video games allow kids to cope with real life violence in a safe manner? That's even less clear.

If the OP wants more sources to back my claim that there is indeed a link between media and video game violence and societal violence I'd be happy to provide them.

I’m not the OP but I would gladly read any additional information you would provide. I’m sure you find this hard to believe at this point but my mind isn’t made up on the topic and I invite you to “convert” me. Given a good argument, I’ll throw in with your view and gladly speak out against video games.

Thank you for your ear. Sorry this post is longer than initially intended.

[D-molisher]

Offcource it does >>> as much as sugar, gives sweet kids.
rofl:
What came first ... the hen or the egg ???

[Varis]

... do violent games "create" violent people?...

violent video games, dnd, magic: the gathering and violent TV (god, I love UFC kinda stuff) make excellent targets and scape goats. Our politicians will fearlessly fight those evils when elections draw near, they will valiantly use these evils to get their picture in the paper or even better, on the news.



So much less fun to look at teenagers having to raise kids, way too hot a topic to see increasing poverty, frustration, anger and disillusionmnt as a bad influence on kids.

Heaven forbid people clue in that mom and dad now gotta work full time to pay the bills, leaving the only nanny they can afford at home... the TV and computer games. That "nanny" better be responsible and not show our kids anything the parents would not approve of ..... if they were there....


We should find a way to spend time with our kids and a way to actually raise them without having a pack of lawyers stalk us, waiting for the moment we need to discipline our child.
I'm very grateful that my parents raised me right. I can't imagine how I would have turned out if I never got what I had comming (you know for stuff like stealing, forging my moms signature, torching the yard, lying, framing or blackmailing my siblings, etc)


Kids go through a lot of **** during school and parents really need to be there as they do the growing up.

[Raider88]

Violent video games do have an effect on the aggression of a player. Now, studies have shown that it is a minimal increase, but it is naive to say flat-out "NO".

[jwdaniels]

Kane and Abel didn't have Grand Theft Auto...

That's a good response for the religious right whackos that try and use the violent video game argument.

In my experience, violent video games allow me to get some aggression out in a way that won't cause me to end up incarcerated but still leaves me feeling like I've had the chance to vent.

[Theolin]

When folks start blaming kids or inanimate objects for the cause of problems I ask about the parents, I do believe that parenting weather good or bad has way more influence on a growing personality than any 1 other thing.

[AyumiAmakusa]

When folks start blaming kids or inanimate objects for the cause of problems I ask about the parents, I do believe that parenting weather good or bad has way more influence on a growing personality than any 1 other thing.

Yikes, this debate is getting larger and larger. Simply put, video game do not make violent people and yes, you should look at the parents before blaming games. Even if games make violent kids, its the parent's fault for letting a child play it. Whatever the reason a person is violent, you have to look at the parents/abuse history.