Prediction: next week we learn astral diamonds are DDOStore only

[geoffhanna]

Imagine the grind if you are F2P and want the top-level airship. Even if Astral Diamonds are 1 per TP, that is still 3850 Turbine Points.

Ai yi yi.

Now speculate further: If Astral Diamonds bind-to-account, someone would have to individally pony up 3850 of them.

Wouldn't that stretch the "100% F2P" too far to remain credible? 99.999% F2P is still pretty good, even if not as catchy a slogan, and if my speculations pan out it is also way more honest.

p.s. If I am wrong and this thread causes a ruckus, I will personally host a server-wide event to balance my karma

[dunklezhan]

certainly hope not. The rumour/message coming out of Turbine central is that ALL aspects of guild airships will be acheivable via in game means. I did not take that to mean 'log into the game and press Ctrl+s'

[Drakos]

Wouldn't that stretch the "100% F2P" too far to remain credible? 99.999% F2P is still pretty good, even if not as catchy a slogan, and if my speculations pan out it is also way more honest.

This would only hold true if the only way to get the Astral Diamonds were the DDO store. Anyway, guilds and the new airships are not the focus of DDO so I'm sure that they would still be able to tout the 100% F2P concept, since this is just a optional sidebar to the game.

[geoffhanna]

Just to be clear with my opinion, and this is not intended as a whine or rant*, but 100% means 100%. Everything. Optional, required, everything. The whole enchilada.

* hmmm usually when I type this it means it really is a whine or rant and I just don't know it yet. Hopefully not this time

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Isn't an Astral diamond something like 10,000 plat under 4.0 rules? Maybe its just a big currency unit. Maybe its tradable for epic tokens. Maybe a rare collectable (oh no, more shards! collection 10million astral shards and crunch 10 at a time to make a diamond ).

Hopefully they give both store and in game options for your boat.

[Glenalth]

The ships that require Astral Diamonds disappear when you unselect the "show store only items" box in the guild rewards tab. So this makes sense.

[Solmage]

Just to be clear with my opinion, and this is not intended as a whine or rant*, but 100% means 100%. Everything. Optional, required, everything. The whole enchilada.

* hmmm usually when I type this it means it really is a whine or rant and I just don't know it yet. Hopefully not this time

Well, you're basing your complaint on a technicality that "100% means 100%" - so you'll have to settle for the technicality that even if it takes 1 year to earn that mean APs, as long as you can earn them, it IS 100% available in-game.

(Disclaimer, no we don't know how long it'll take. But it would be foolish if it didn't take a xxxxload of effort, to promote ddo store sales, kind of like unlocking favored soul via points as a new player vs just buying it)

[dunklezhan]

The ships that require Astral Diamonds disappear when you unselect the "show store only items" box in the guild rewards tab. So this makes sense.

This bodes... very ill indeed.

[Aspenor]

A guild with a well-oiled 6 person party machine farming TP would be able to obtain 3850 TP fairly quickly. Even faster if you have more people. I'd expect that my guild could easily farm out the needed TP in a week, tops if we really dedicated our gaming to it, and we only have like 10 people. I can't imagine Turbine would put the onus on one person to "pwny" up the Turbine points.

[omastar444]

Now speculate further: If Astral Diamonds bind-to-account, someone would have to individally pony up 3850 of them.

No. Since any member of the guild can put ADs into the guild coffers via the showroom. So with a guild of 39 people, each person could donate 100, which isn't that hard to get.

[Hendrik]

This bodes... very ill indeed.

Why is that?

Are there not six ships in total?

Three via in-game and three via the Store?

No matter what route you take still have to unlock a ship via Renown. Boils down to, IMO;

a. Run with Guild to earn renown and gold to buy a ship as a Guild.
b. Run with Guild to earn renown and have one person buy a ship for the guild.

[Missing_Minds]

Geo... what in the guild ships is going to make it *required* that all players have access to guild ships?

I have found nothing. Certainly some niceties, but nothing required. F2P has always been a statement about paying for server access, never about content access.

[dunklezhan]

Well, you're basing your complaint on a technicality that "100% means 100%" - so you'll have to settle for the technicality that even if it takes 1 year to earn that mean APs, as long as you can earn them, it IS 100% available in-game.

(Disclaimer, no we don't know how long it'll take. But it would be foolish if it didn't take a xxxxload of effort, to promote ddo store sales, kind of like unlocking favored soul via points as a new player vs just buying it)

Wheras this, I consider a completely reasonable approach.

Hope you're reading this turbine:

1. ONLY available to buy instore = not F2P
2. Massive grind to get them in game or purchase in store to get them quick = F2P

You should go option 2.

And here's a thing. VIP 500pts per month should be enough to buy a significant number of Astral Diamonds. I leave it to others to work out what significant is, it would depend on how many diamonds a ship costs. It should be based on how long you consider a reasonable amount of time for an average sized guild, assuming all were VIPs and paying subs, to be able to acheive the smallest Astral Diamond-required ship, if they all saved their free TPs and bought diamonds with them.

I'd say a reasonable amount of time based on that calculation should be 1 month's TPs for the basic level AD-required ship.

Lets test that.

Say your definition of an average sized guild is 25 player accounts.
25 VIPs = $250 for Turbine, and 12500 TPs.
To buy that many TPs outright would cost what, $125 ($50x5000 TPs? that right these days?), assuming no other deals are in place.

That sounds expensive on both counts, but its a guild-wide purchase. If everyone in a 25 person guild chipped in, that is only $5 each, and that sounds about right for a guild purchase.

What I don't like is that anyway you look at it, if the focus is purely to buy an airship VIPs get stiffed on cost compared to freemium players, and that's not right. VIPs should get 1000TPs per month. nuff said. That way they're effectively buying $10 worth of points, and the stuff they get on top truly is a 'perk' then (I let my sub lapse this month, I'm now freemium, I have no vested interest in 'buffing' VIPs - just setting out my stall). I digress.

My point is that there is a point at which 'Astral Diamonds in the store only' is balanced, and a point at which its a rip off. Please get the balance right Turbine because you've missed by miles with some of your recent price points.

Above all - give a way to get the things in game. I don't care if their random drops. I don't care if they're quest rewards, or collectible hand in rewards. I don't care if you use a base time calculation based on 1 year of dedicated grinding by the whole guild But make them in game accessible. Its the principle of the thing. That still matters to some people.

[Zenako]

The Guild SHips are mainly an ego boost perk. A way for guilds to achieve more than just word of mouth status. I have seen nothing to date that will make players in a guild with or without an airship have any better success in a quest or raid. The Guild upgrade items are nothing more than public twink. While nice, it appears to be inferior to the twink most long time vets have lying around to hand out.

A Great Axe of Chaos (+Frost) of Pure Good lays waste to low level and most mid level mobs in the game. (I suppose I could have added a Force Ritual but that would have bound it.) Same thing with RR armor and more.

All the guild items so far are somewhat comparable in power, if that.

It will mainly be a huge honking convienence for players to (once that are fully opertaional death stars...oops) conduct lots of routine chores (repair, restock, selling, etc) that used to entail more running around.

It is a perk and convienence. IF and when it ever becomes a factor in actual gameplay is the point at which it becomes a game breaker and will drive a huge wedge in the game and the community.

[dunklezhan]

Why is that?

Are there not six ships in total?

Three via in-game and three via the Store?

No matter what route you take still have to unlock a ship via Renown. Boils down to, IMO;

a. Run with Guild to earn renown and gold to buy a ship as a Guild.
b. Run with Guild to earn renown and have one person buy a ship for the guild.

Its not the grinding for renown I have the problem with. Its the 'prestige items only available for real cash' I object to. Either the game is F2P or it isn't - I don't care how much they stretch the F2P aspect for true adventure content (grinding favour for TPs), but for items, prestige or otherwise, there should be a way to get them directly in game (favour, renown, gold, whatever) in addition to TPs. The indirect favour>TP system is not good enough for something like this by a long shot because of what I expect to be the massive cost of the ships in TPs. I objected to the +20 personal bank slot for the same reason - that should have been a favour unlockable as well as a TP purchase. Again, don't care if the ships themselves can be unlocked in game except with renown - yes you should still have to grind renown. But the Astral Diamonds are an ingame item, (since they can used to 'group' purchase something in game) and therefore should be obtainable without spending out of game currency. Ditto the various TR items.

Anyway. I will wait and see. I'll just be very disappointed if they go down that route. My small guild will never get enough renown for one of the AD-required ships, so regardless of where the ADs come from its a moot point for me. Its the principle.

[Cyr]

The Guild SHips are mainly an ego boost perk.

You are wrong.

As currently on Lama the guild perks are actually mostly gameplay enhancements.

+2 to stats (stacks with everything else)
+2 to damage ('')
+30 elemental resists (again stacks)
+? skills (stacks yet again)
+10% healing (stacks...)

Unless your argument is that a full set of +6 tomes compared to +4 tomes does not provide an advantage in quest? How about the benefits of 4 past life feats (10% healing amp, +2 damage per hit)? Lol, or how about 30 more fire resistance in certain quests?

[Aspenor]

Its not the grinding for renown I have the problem with. Its the 'prestige items only available for real cash' I object to. Either the game is F2P or it isn't - I don't care how much they stretch the F2P aspect for true adventure content (grinding favour for TPs), but for items, prestige or otherwise, there should be a way to get them directly in game (favour, renown, gold, whatever) in addition to TPs. The indirect favour>TP system is not good enough for something like this by a long shot because of the massive cost of the ships in TPs. I objected to the +20 personal bank slot for the same reason - that should have been a favour unlockable as well as a TP purchase. Again, don't care if the ships themselves can be unlocked in game except with renown - yes you should still have to grind renown. But the Astral Diamonds are an ingame item, (since they can used to 'group' purchase something in game) and therefore should be obtainable without spending out of game currency. Ditto the various TR items.

Anyway. I will wait and see. I'll just be very disappointed if they go down that route. My small guild will never get enough renown for one of the AD-required ships, so regardless of where the ADs come from its a moot point for me. Its the principle.

You can farm Turbine Points in-game fairly easily, especially with a guild. You need not worry about spending cash on them if everybody bands together.

Process:
You and guildies create one new character, and mail twink gear to them.
Party up, and run low level quests and hammer out some favor, getting free TP for the first few benchmarks.
When it's no longer gaining you benchmarks fast enough, mail off your gear, delete, and reroll.
Rinse, repeat.

[Coldin]

I'm fairly certain the Stormglory ships are going to be DDO store only. And if not DDOstore only, the diamonds will only be found in very rare cases.

The main reason I think this is because they already let every guild get the Windspyre ships for just a gold cost. So they've fulfilled the F2P portion of airships right there. The Stormglory ships become more like a perk. Some extra hook slots, and a more luxurious looking ship.

Just my 2 cp. I think there's going to be a lot of DDOstore tied things coming with the guild changes.

[Zenako]

You are wrong.

As currently on Lama the guild perks are actually mostly gameplay enhancements.

+2 to stats (stacks with everything else)
+2 to damage ('')
+30 elemental resists (again stacks)
+? skills (stacks yet again)
+10% healing (stacks...)

Unless your argument is that a full set of +6 tomes compared to +4 tomes does not provide an advantage in quest? How about the benefits of 4 past life feats (10% healing amp, +2 damage per hit)? Lol, or how about 30 more fire resistance in certain quests?

I had not seen that those things stacked. IF that is the case I stand corrected. Do the stat perks stack with the Yugo pots? When I first read them, it appeared to be substitutes, not additional bonuses. If that is the case then the system is fraught with peril. Especially if the upper levels of the guild perks are very hard to achieve in game and more readily just bought.

Someone running around with 60 pt resists and as you point out +6 tome equivalents will take a lot more to be challenged than without. So if quests are scaled to be a challenge for those, they will be horribly hard for those without, more or less forcing people to either join a guild or pony up serious bucks to achieve even remote parity.

[Krag]

You can farm Turbine Points in-game fairly easily, especially with a guild. You need not worry about spending cash on them if everybody bands together.

Process:
You and guildies create one new character, and mail twink gear to them.
Party up, and run low level quests and hammer out some favor, getting free TP for the first few benchmarks.
When it's no longer gaining you benchmarks fast enough, mail off your gear, delete, and reroll.
Rinse, repeat.

5 sponges + level 20 sorc. Run 100favor quests, repeat.