True Test of a Player and his Team!

[Deaeth]

I must say, I have found something not documented (unless I missed it) but honestly. I LOVE IT.

No more re-entrys into epic quests! Finally there's an actual challenge to the game and no more waiting around for your caster/healer to recall out and grab their sp back. Sorry pug'd epics, ain't gonna happen no more!

Now, this happend to be found on accident. Had 3 people epic von1 renown farming, one guy took invite while inside his instance, and then tried to come into mine to loot a renown bag. He couldn't come in so tried the handy dandy trick of him dropping group and re-joining. STILL couldn't zone in.

Now I haven't actually tested this in other epic instances, and only tried it this once and one other time where I myself verified I couldn't leave party and come back in. Didn't work still! So it could be a fluke here but I dunno. I hope it's actually fixed.

Tons of people are going to start crying about this saying it's not fair blah blah blah, but you know what, it's an EPIC quest. Meaning NOT supposed to be EASY AT ALL! A challenge OMG /gasp.

Now, all the above being said, I hope the devs take just a little more time to re-calculate how much each epic instance is worth,token-wise, and not take completion times from the past into account. As I can bet that a lot of completed instances were done with players recalling for SP. Now that there is actually a challenge in some of the quests, they should go back up in token drops.

Now that I posted this I can picture tons of people heading out to, oh lets say, Epic Wiz King for one? LOL.

Bring on the /rants. I need a good laugh. Lets hear how many ppl complain about the fix!

Thanks again Turbine, very happy that you brought some of the challenge back to the game. Now more high level, NON EPIC content please! /beg

[mudfud]

I must say, I have found something not documented (unless I missed it) but honestly. I LOVE IT.

No more re-entrys into epic quests! Finally there's an actual challenge to the game and no more waiting around for your caster/healer to recall out and grab their sp back. Sorry pug'd epics, ain't gonna happen no more!

Now, this happend to be found on accident. Had 3 people epic von1 renown farming, one guy took invite while inside his instance, and then tried to come into mine to loot a renown bag. He couldn't come in so tried the handy dandy trick of him dropping group and re-joining. STILL couldn't zone in.

Now I haven't actually tested this in other epic instances, and only tried it this once and one other time where I myself verified I couldn't leave party and come back in. Didn't work still! So it could be a fluke here but I dunno. I hope it's actually fixed.

Tons of people are going to start crying about this saying it's not fair blah blah blah, but you know what, it's an EPIC quest. Meaning NOT supposed to be EASY AT ALL! A challenge OMG /gasp.

Now, all the above being said, I hope the devs take just a little more time to re-calculate how much each epic instance is worth,token-wise, and not take completion times from the past into account. As I can bet that a lot of completed instances were done with players recalling for SP. Now that there is actually a challenge in some of the quests, they should go back up in token drops.

Now that I posted this I can picture tons of people heading out to, oh lets say, Epic Wiz King for one? LOL.

Bring on the /rants. I need a good laugh. Lets hear how many ppl complain about the fix!

Thanks again Turbine, very happy that you brought some of the challenge back to the game. Now more high level, NON EPIC content please! /beg

It's only gonna slow down people is all. Most will still try it and do it. It might take logging out instead now, or it might take the combination of logging out, changing to another character and then logging back into that character. But it will be done. Heck maybe even the logging into another of the 10 or so casters said person has also. For every fix they make there is always a badside or a not fixed aspect of it that people will take advantage of.

I agree with that being stupid and lazy but the epics I normally do don't require u to recall drop come back in unless the caster is one of those who think just because they are lvl 20 they belong in an epic quest.

[Rasczak]

It's only gonna slow down people is all. Most will still try it and do it. It might take logging out instead now, or it might take the combination of logging out, changing to another character and then logging back into that character. But it will be done. Heck maybe even the logging into another of the 10 or so casters said person has also. For every fix they make there is always a badside or a not fixed aspect of it that people will take advantage of.

I agree with that being stupid and lazy but the epics I normally do don't require u to recall drop come back in unless the caster is one of those who think just because they are lvl 20 they belong in an epic quest.

It seems that once started noone can join.

The OP said a player was in a seperate instance and tried to come to theirs so you either there when the quest starts or you can't get in at all

[Angelus_dead]

The problem with this "true test" is that if your group falls short, all it means is that they spend a few Mnemonic Potions to fill up. So the epic-reentry doesn't make it about "succeed or fail", but "affordable or expensive". It'd be nicer if there was no way to use the crutch of drinking several mana potions to force a victory... success should be dependent on ability, not on willingness to spend.

Anyhow my suggestion for the devs is to just totally remove the epic re-entry obstruction, and instead give each character a chance to not receive epic stuff in the end chest based on the number of re-entries. For example, if someone does Epic Court of Laliat by recalling once for spellpoints, then there can be maybe a 20% chance for each member to not get an epic token or seals, with an additional penalty on the guy who actually re-entered. (Importantly, a character who is denied the epic loot also doesn't get put on epic lockout timer).

[Angelus_dead]

It seems that once started noone can join.

I hope it's not like that. Epic dungeon groups should not have to face the choice between starting in clearing some monsters or waiting for their group to fill up.

[Cyr]

I hope it's not like that. Epic dungeon groups should not have to face the choice between starting in clearing some monsters or waiting for their group to fill up.

Particularly since we already had this sort of mechanic in place with the 'blue barrier' and it was widely disliked.

Devs, stop trying to make epic all about drinking mana pots. Let people exit or enter epic quests just like any other quest. It's not like that half an epic quest token is so OP. The re-entry restriction DOES NOT MAKE EPIC QUESTS HARDER it just makes Turbine look like they are trying desperately to milk every last penny out of us before we get disgusted and leave.

[Angelus_dead]

Particularly since we already had this sort of mechanic in place with the 'blue barrier' and it was widely disliked.

Yes, I think I know what you mean:

The Suggestion
Go to every quest from level 2 to 20 and add an impassible blue forcefield over the entry, which activates when a player character leaves the first room. Once active, anyone who recalls, joins late, or uses Dimension Door will be unable to come into the rest of the area.

The Justification
This change will allow all quests and modes to be as fun and popular as Epic mode is. No longer will players be forced to wait until level 20 to experience the challenging tension of being locked into the dungeon.

It's not like that half an epic quest token is so OP.

And if they wanted, the number of epic fragments could be reduced if you re-entered.

[Krag]

Can we has more shrines in ADQ?

[Elation]

Well to those that think its just a money sink maybe its time to leave if you waste pots cause you are in such a hurry then its your own fault personally think this would be a great change stop allowing people to abuse the mechanics of the game and if they want to waste their resources great its on them. Turbine is not hampering your play ability in anyway with this, its causing you to think a little, even on your sorce on when and how to use your spell selections.

[Crazyfruit]

You can do them all without recalling out for SP or SP pots as it is (ADQ's a bit rough tho), assuming a balanced group & some form of crowd control. Tactics are everything, don't even need gear/weighted junk...

Are they still a challenge at all with the -10 to saves?

That seemed like something that'd completely ruin the fun of epics for me even more than those groups who insist on cheesy AI exploits. Can't try them on Llamaland as a wf premium :|

[Krag]

It seems that once started noone can join.

The OP said a player was in a seperate instance and tried to come to theirs so you either there when the quest starts or you can't get in at all

Does that mean it is no longer possible to bring character X to fill the role and than switch to character who actually needs tokens? No more "Soloed Wiz King, need some DPS for the boss" LFMs?

[Rasczak]

Does that mean it is no longer possible to bring character X to fill the role and than switch to character who actually needs tokens? No more "Soloed Wiz King, need some DPS for the boss" LFMs?

Considering that tokens are now BtA and raid can be traded for dungeon that's not to much of an issue for me.

My problem would be having to wait for your group instead of starting and having people catch up as is the custom now.

[Solmage]

Anyhow my suggestion for the devs is to just totally remove the epic re-entry obstruction, and instead give each character a chance to not receive epic stuff in the end chest based on the number of re-entries. For example, if someone does Epic Court of Laliat by recalling once for spellpoints, then there can be maybe a 20% chance for each member to not get an epic token or seals, with an additional penalty on the guy who actually re-entered. (Importantly, a character who is denied the epic loot also doesn't get put on epic lockout timer).

I like this idea, but unfortunately it's flawed: you don't recall out, you simply disconnect, bring in another caster, system bypassed. Sadly the people who have no business being in epic are doing this and more.

Personally, if I can't complete a given quest without recalling or using mana pots (except in extraordinary circumstances, ie due to terrible luck) then that's a quest my group and myself should not be completing.

Speaking of ADQ, am I the only one that thinks it's a bit over the top the fact that the end fight is harder here than in the raid with those disjunctions running around the ground in Lailat's chamber? I mean, did we REALLY need those added? (The ones in the centre are fine)

Lastly, back when the cap was 12, this quest was very poor in shrines. I submit that now that we're playing it at like level again on epic, it is again too poor in shrines. Perhaps you could add one of those temporary shrines that just pop, when you complete the first 3 puzzles or something?

I hope it's not like that. Epic dungeon groups should not have to face the choice between starting in clearing some monsters or waiting for their group to fill up.

I agree, but I can't think of any other way to stop the exploits. Can you?

Particularly since we already had this sort of mechanic in place with the 'blue barrier' and it was widely disliked.

This would at least be better than the blue barrier for the following reasons:

- You can still use Ddoor without getting locked out of the quest
- Your tokens are now bound to account so you no longer need to switch chars

No, I don't like it, but since people will exploit, only hard measures like these will stop it.

[Krag]

My problem would be having to wait for your group instead of starting and having people catch up as is the custom now.

Wiz King in particular, because melees can substantially contribute only to the bossfight. Reaver's Fate piking sounds like a childsplay in comparison.

[Cyr]

My problem would be having to wait for your group instead of starting and having people catch up as is the custom now.

Yup this is the main issue.

The other one of course is the false premise that more consumable use that can be (and is) aquired from the store is somehow more challenging or more fun.

I'll believe that Turbine actually cares about the challenge of epic content and not making a quick buck (and the argument that this type of thing is ACTUALLY more challenging) when Turbine bought items are unusable in epic quests (pots, shrines, cakes, and whatever else).

[Crazyfruit]

The OP said a player was in a seperate instance and tried to come to theirs so you either there when the quest starts or you can't get in at all

It sounded more to me like someone couldn't go from their epic instance (also von1) to his version of the quest.

This happens currently on live. Someone solo grabbing chests in epic ADQ & joining an inprogress ADQ group for a quick flag will get dumped back into their epic when they recall out - now prevented from entering with the bug fix

[Angelus_dead]

I like this idea, but unfortunately it's flawed: you don't recall out, you simply disconnect, bring in another caster, system bypassed. Sadly the people who have no business being in epic are doing this and more.

Ok, let me repeat it more clearly:
XP penalties based on quest entry are converted into a chance to not receive epic loot (which also prevents you from going on epic timer).

A character who joined late would have a significant chance for no epic loot (80%), and someone who was extremely late would have no chance for loot at all.

And here's another suggestion: A character who is on epic timer for a quest can still enter it, but can't get any epic loot.

I agree, but I can't think of any other way to stop the exploits. Can you?

Yes I can, as explained before.

[SquelchHU]

Can we has more shrines in ADQ?

Sure.

http://www.ddo.com/ddostoresale/?trk=rotator_sale060410

That will be 5 dollars.

[Solmage]

Ok, let me repeat it more clearly:
XP penalties based on quest entry are converted into a chance to not receive epic loot (which also prevents you from going on epic timer).

A character who joined late would have a significant chance for no epic loot (80%), and someone who was extremely late would have no chance for loot at all.

And here's another suggestion: A character who is on epic timer for a quest can still enter it, but can't get any epic loot.


Yes I can, as explained before.

Forgive me if I still fail to see how this stops people from simply recalling out in the middle of the quest, dropping group, getting mana, re-joining, and going back in (or switching to another alt before), and since the quest is only 50% done, their -80% penalty will go down to 0% by the time the quest is done.

Also, I fail to see how this would address the issue of people simply going to guildies/friends and saying "Well, it's your turn to take one for the team, but you can still roll on our stuff - I'll bring MY cleric for run #2, then I'll take one for the team"

[Xeraphim]

I hope it's not like that. Epic dungeon groups should not have to face the choice between starting in clearing some monsters or waiting for their group to fill up.

Agreed. It's bad enough already waiting for Epic Raids...