Monk System Troubleshooting and Brainstorm

[Xeraphim]

I would prefer this thread be stricly ideas, not "Do it my way!" posts.

I want to see things balanced with the idea that Monks need to have DPS that compares to a Tempest Ranger, but doesn't quite measure up to the critical ability of other classes, since their fists hit harder than a Greataxe, at Tempest speed, at level cap.

They are the dependable static DPS that never fails, but not the class that makes huge jumps in Raid Boss HP. Instead, they would be the steady pour that never stops.

With that in mind, I want to brainstorm with the Devs on what to do about their Stances, PrE, AP costs, abilities, and just about everything else.


First:

1) Addressing Criticals: It appears the playerbase REALLY wants a way to beef up the Monk Critical Multiplier and Range, with the Multiplier being the hot topic. This is a topic that I very much want to keep out of the Stance discussion, to avoid making one stance "Teh neu Uber".

2) Addressing Stances: Wind stance keeps Monks on Live equal to if not greater than Tempest IIIs, which I want to definitely keep alive. Tempest III has the option of x3 multipliers on their weapons, and Monks should hit more often to close the gap, if not have the ability to equip a ML 12 item to increase their critical multiplier(Unarmed Only, Monk Exclusive, Multiclasses cannot use). Fire stance is underwhelming, but a love of many new players. Wind stance is the speed stance and needs to stay that way(movement bonus with it would be nice too). Water stance is awesome for fights with lots of spells happening, and great for leaping through traps and soloing quests, but even so could use a little touch of love. Earth stance is only used when blocking in certain raids, and needs a serious adjustment before it becomes a viable combat choice. Void stance isn't even an idea yet, but would be cool to see.

3) Addressing the 5 stat needs of the Dark Monk and the 6 stat needs of the Dark DEX/WIS AC based Ninja Spy, as well as the difficult balance implied to all Monks in relation to these issues. Some Dark attacks could be made a check other than CHA, but I would like to see some discussion as to avoid unbalancing the entire system with the 36 WIS Halfling Monk. Example: Falling Star Strike based on your CON modifier, or on your STR modifier, others based on WIS, one based on INT, etc. Monks tend to focus hard in CON DEX STR and WIS, adding CHA is just too much, especially if they have to start with INT enough for Combat Expertise.

4) AP Problems - Currently a Monk can specialize in 1 stance, or if he sacrifices some HP or abilities, 2 stances. If he wants 2 stances and the special attack finisher, he will lose the majority of the rest of his Enhancements. Adding a Prestige Enhancement line to this already starved AP progression unbalances it to the point of breaking the Monk's potential at endgame, whereas other classes have the option of finishing their HP lines and taking their PrE with a good bit of AP left for Racial and Class stats.

5) I want some Dev Opinion in here, but would really appreciate the players not flaming them. I know there are other threads out there for Monks, but they have dissolved into flamewar on how to overpower or break the class.


For discussions about Shintao, go here.

[Xeraphim]

Stunning Blow problems for STR monks will be expected, but the Weighted 5% Mandatory Weapon Set for Epic is going to become a WIS Monk Only item as per http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252494, and the release notes to the change to weighted. I'll get into an Epic on Lama and see how my wraps pan out to confirm.

[Xeraphim]

PrE systems of course choke the already rather full AP system of Monks in general, so let's build a few Monk in the Planner to see how that pans out before throwing AP reduction requests into the mix as per this thread.

I already know Stances are costly, and could be reduced to 1, 1, 2, 2, and that the Animal Path is equally costly, which could be reduced to 1, 2, 2, 2, and that the stat line is also quite expensive, which could be reduced globally to 2, 3, 4.

This would pretty much fix the system's problems and give cause for other classes to celebrate the reduced Class Stat cost. Racial costs should remain as they are, in my opinion, though I would like some critique on that as well.

I'd appreciate the Healing Amplification line costs to be reduced for Monks, but that is just my particular fetish.

[Xeraphim]

Ninja Spy 3d6 Sneak Damage when applied to Halfling lines is nice, but where do you get the CHA for Dark Attacks? Naturally, it comes out of your AC. With the already reduced HP of the Ninja Spy, losing those AC points can really hurt! I'd like someone who is looking forward to Ninja Spy AC builds to comment on this, though the general train of thought is fairly obvious.

[Xeraphim]

Addressing Ki Strikes - Most players don't like having to constantly and steadily bash a key on their keyboard while trying to maximize their DPS against a raid boss(Wind Strike), or mash 4 buttons when trying to DPS through a quest. I'd like the option to enable Lesser Ki Strikes as a toggle that keeps a steady drain on generated Ki in exchange for the selected element type added to every swing, reduced of course by the amount of ki being drained in proportion to the stance level. [Example: Tier I Earth: 1 acid damage per hit per ki, Tier II Water: 3 Frost damage per hit per ki, Tier III Wind: 5 Shock Damage Per hit Per ki, Tier IV Fire: 8 Fire damage per hit per ki, or 10 in my opinion for how hard it is to get there, as one would attempt to get grandmastery in 1-2 stances, with 3-4 being far too costly in build points and in AP]


Yes, finishers would not be an option with such a thing enabled, but in the average quest grind and on certain bosses it may be a good thing.

Of course, I am considering the cost of 1 ki per hit per Lesser Ki Strike, reducing Fire stance with Lesser Wind Ki Strikes on to 1 ki per hit, or Lesser Fire and Lesser Wind on at the same time to 0 ki generation per hit. With no Ki Regeneration, of course the toggles would have no ki to drain and would automatically negate themselves. This encourages the Oremi set usage, particularly on Ninja Spies.

I would also like the ability for some Monks to use two ToD sets that benefit their class, rather than a situation where both quest pieces are a necklace. As it is, many classes use the Shintao or Ninja Spy set with the Assassin, Frenzied berserker, Kensai and other sets, but Monks must look outside their own sets(often to the Frenzied set) for gain in that area, despite them being of the most gain to Monks. It's been a side note, but the additional trouble with Monk ToD sets is that they are not True Reincarnate friendly, which is why I ask for Greensteel Rings to be added to the recipes(Like ToD rings, but with no stats).

[Xeraphim]

Tactics Lines in the Fighter and Barbarian classes, and for the Dwarf and Warforged races make their Stunning Blow checks harder to resist. Monks do not have a Tactics Line at all, and would be hard pressed to afford the AP for one.

Barbarians rely on their Rage for Stunning Blow DC, and Fighters rely on Power Surge, but what do Monks have? Currently nothing.

[Xeraphim]

Void Strike 4 is noted to require 16 STR 16 DEX 16 WIS and 16 CON base here, as well as cost a great deal of AP getting both TO it and getting it.

This invalidates(or seriously injures) two of the currently 4 available successful Monk builds, and demands multiclassing for AP reasons(as well as a +2 tome of supreme ability).

In this case, the Path of Inevitable Dominion needs to use these 4 stats for ALL of its difficulty checks, or the DCs need to be inherently raised to compensate the Monks using them.

[Drfirewater79]

First:

1) Addressing Criticals: It appears the playerbase REALLY wants a way to beef up the Monk Critical Multiplier and Range, with the Multiplier being the hot topic. This is a topic that I very much want to keep out of the Stance discussion, to avoid making one stance "Teh neu Uber".

2) Addressing Stances: Wind stance keeps Monks on Live equal to if not greater than Tempest IIIs, which I want to definitely keep alive. Tempest III has the option of x3 multipliers on their weapons, and Monks should hit more often to close the gap, if not have the ability to equip a ML 12 item to increase their critical multiplier(Unarmed Only, Monk Exclusive, Multiclasses cannot use). Fire stance is underwhelming, but a love of many new players. Wind stance is the speed stance and needs to stay that way(movement bonus with it would be nice too). Water stance is awesome for fights with lots of spells happening, and great for leaping through traps and soloing quests, but even so could use a little touch of love. Earth stance is only used when blocking in certain raids, and needs a serious adjustment before it becomes a viable combat choice. Void stance isn't even an idea yet, but would be cool to see.

3) Addressing the 5 stat needs of the Dark Monk and the 6 stat needs of the Dark DEX/WIS AC based Ninja Spy, as well as the difficult balance implied to all Monks in relation to these issues. Some Dark attacks could be made a check other than CHA, but I would like to see some discussion as to avoid unbalancing the entire system with the 36 WIS Halfling Monk. Example: Falling Star Strike based on your CON modifier, or on your STR modifier, others based on WIS, one based on INT, etc. Monks tend to focus hard in CON DEX STR and WIS, adding CHA is just too much, especially if they have to start with INT enough for Combat Expertise.

4) AP Problems - Currently a Monk can specialize in 1 stance, or if he sacrifices some HP or abilities, 2 stances. If he wants 2 stances and the special attack finisher, he will lose the majority of the rest of his Enhancements. Adding a Prestige Enhancement line to this already starved AP progression unbalances it to the point of breaking the Monk's potential at endgame, whereas other classes have the option of finishing their HP lines and taking their PrE with a good bit of AP left for Racial and Class stats.

5) I want some Dev Opinion in here, but would really appreciate the players not flaming them. I know there are other threads out there for Monks, but they have dissolved into flamewar on how to overpower or break the class.

1) I never had a problem with not having a x3 crit mod on my monk ... maybe having 3 monks doesnt make me an expert but my dps seems just fine minus the fact that light monks dont have greensteel or a 500 points strike in return for getting buffs they can never use effectivly cept in TOD and generally useless healing ability which without the right gear takes longer to cast and for less hps then a cure serious pot.

a times 3 crit mod isnt needed cause monks hit faster ...

that being said in update 5 we no longer swing as fast and double strike doesnt make up for the dps difference at all (tested using same rare mob staying in wind stance lama as shintao II and live as straight light monk and live was 26 seconds vs lama 42 seconds solo) So a bigger crit range or multiplier would be nice but really its not needed ....

however i wouldn't hate on seeing some special handwraps with metaline and a good quality coming out with a crafting system allowing them to increase there crit range and multiplier in a way that stacks with improved crit blugeon ...

but really why do we need that when we have weighted ... .I mean Stunning +10 handwraps ? for raid bosses? i am sorry 500 points every 15 seconds as a dark monk makes up for lack of crit multiplier and weighted handwraps make up for crit range ... its why they did it .. .this has already been fixed (also there idea of fixing greensteel giving darks 500 and lights smite and eventually exalted smite)

2) I would love to see void stance as a dark monk only option .... leaving void strike chain as light monk only option ... with new changes to the game it would be cool I agree ....

also since wind stance is no longer faster ... fire stance 1 seems more benifitial then windstance 4 for an ac monk ... this needs to be fixed ....

i agree with this one fully.

3) While it may seem like you need to many stats as a monk its really not that hard to build one that is effective in combat ...

its all about the race .....

halflings get monk dex and halfling dex in enhancements ... same with elfs

if your a dwarf you get con same as warforged ...

the best way to do it in my opinion is start with your to hit number and your wisdom at full possible (in my case halfling dex 20 and wis 18) then remove two points from both stat (dex 18 wis 16 causeing two points of ac to go bye bye) then put int to 10 (expect to grind out +3 int tome for combat expertise to make up for lost 2 ac by gaining 5) put str to 10 and rest into con ... this will end you with a large dex (to hit) in wind stance and a still great dex in any other stance ... boost your str to about 20 in fire stance 1 where i spend most of my time ... and about 402 hps in wind stance 4 and 422 in fire stance 1. fully buffed near a pali your gonna see about 85ac after combat expertise but you will spend most of your time in the 60-70 range depending on ac gear you choose to wear (chattering vs tod ring jed'tika vs chaos guards ... icy vs DT)

the cha isnt needed .. i have base 8 cha on my monk and i hit my dance on epic all the time and have a umd of 34.5 on lama and 33.5 on live (i love the top hat) and agian especially in update 5 stunning is the way to go anyway ... most times even on epic they are dead before they break it and the whole time i am hitting them i am stunning them over and over anyway.

i use full heal scrolls at 65% and that will only go down to 60% when i switch back to dark monk in update 5 and get my top hat.

4)I agree monks have alot of AP requirements ... and with pre's now its even more ... all the light monk stances required for pheonix and all the side attacks needed plus halfling guile and dex which are dps requirements for light monks .... dark monks needing all the pre reqs for ninja spy and the Touch of Death and halfling guile ..

right now its monks and pale masters needing more AP to be valueable then any other pre and class. since we do less over all dps in update 5 this needs to be addressed they need to lower AP cost considerably and add dps options like monk melee damage enhancement which can later be used as pre req for henshin mystic.

5) I agree ... I hate it when threads turn into flame wars about overpowered monks or broken multiclass BS ....

at the same time .... some issues are not issues but minor inconveniences and the fact that dev's dont respond is why they turn into flame wars.

[Drfirewater79]

Ninja Spy 3d6 Sneak Damage when applied to Halfling lines is nice, but where do you get the CHA for Dark Attacks? Naturally, it comes out of your AC. With the already reduced HP of the Ninja Spy, losing those AC points can really hurt! I'd like someone who is looking forward to Ninja Spy AC builds to comment on this, though the general train of thought is fairly obvious.

is this a lama thing ??? when last i checked on live my monk never needed to pass a SR or a DC for his 500 point attack ... the debuffs suck so who cares if they work or not ... but that being said ... again they worked just fine on epic on live ... is there a change in lama i dont know about ... cant test dark for one more day cause of feat change for light monk shintao requirement testing i did.

[Drfirewater79]

Void Strike 4 is noted to require 16 STR 16 DEX 16 WIS and 16 CON base here, as well as cost a great deal of AP getting both TO it and getting it.

This invalidates(or seriously injures) two of the currently 4 available successful Monk builds, and demands multiclassing for AP reasons(as well as a +2 tome of supreme ability).

In this case, the Path of Inevitable Dominion needs to use these 4 stats for ALL of its difficulty checks.

void stance sucks anyway ... when are you gonna use it as a dark or light monk the buff sucks and only lasts 10 seconds and the dps isnt enough to make it worth not doing the 500 point strike instead.

[Drfirewater79]

Tactics Lines in the Fighter and Barbarian classes, and for the Dwarf and Warforged races make their Stunning Blow checks harder to resist. Monks do not have a Tactics Line at all, and would be hard pressed to afford the AP for one.

Barbarians rely on their Rage for Stunning Blow DC, and Fighters rely on Power Surge, but what do Monks have? Currently nothing.

reason we dont have the stunning line tactical enhancements is cause they are too costly in AP first off and secondly most monks in lama are netting anywhere from 38-45 dcs with stunning +10 handwraps anyway ... why do we need more ... weighted 5% is the most needed weapon live today and stunning +10 is the most needed tomorrow .... funny enough weighted 5% becomes stunning +10 so there is no need to hunt for other options ... you prolly already have it ... since we get dps from TOD rings its the reason we dont get the options for other dc changes in enhancements.

ps

I wouldnt mind if monk wisdom bonus was added to stunning dc to even things out a bit ... on the rage power serge point which is quite vaild.

[Drfirewater79]

Addressing Ki Strikes - Most players don't like having to constantly and steadily bash a key on their keyboard while trying to maximize their DPS against a raid boss(Wind Strike), or mash 4 buttons when trying to DPS through a quest. I'd like the option to enable Lesser Ki Strikes as a toggle that keeps a steady drain on generated Ki in exchange for the selected element type added to every swing, reduced of course by the amount of ki being drained in proportion to the stance level. [Example: Tier I Earth: 1 acid damage per hit per ki, Tier II Water: 3 Frost damage per hit per ki, Tier III Wind: 5 Shock Damage Per hit Per ki, Tier IV Fire: 8 Fire damage per hit per ki, or 10 in my opinion for how hard it is to get there, as one would attempt to get grandmastery in 1-2 stances, with 3-4 being far too costly in build points and in AP]


Yes, finishers would not be an option with such a thing enabled, but in the average quest grind and on certain bosses it may be a good thing.

Of course, I am considering the cost of 1 ki per hit per Lesser Ki Strike, reducing Fire stance with Lesser Wind Ki Strikes on to 1 ki per hit, or Lesser Fire and Lesser Wind on at the same time to 0 ki generation per hit. With no Ki Regeneration, of course the toggles would have no ki to drain and would automatically negate themselves. This encourages the Oremi set usage, particularly on Ninja Spies.

I would also like the ability for some Monks to use two ToD sets that benefit their class, rather than a situation where both quest pieces are a necklace. As it is, many classes use the Shintao or Ninja Spy set with the Assassin, Frenzied berserker, Kensai and other sets, but Monks must look outside their own sets(often to the Frenzied set) for gain in that area, despite them being of the most gain to Monks. It's been a side note, but the additional trouble with Monk ToD sets is that they are not True Reincarnate friendly, which is why I ask for Greensteel Rings to be added to the recipes(Like ToD rings, but with no stats).

I like this idea but i also see them doing it as a feat line choice or a enhancement line choice which to me are two areas that we are already drained in ... unlikely they will just add the dps to the stance which would be my prefered choice and then leave the extra attacks as finihsers (wind 1 doing 1 strike of elec damage wind 2 doing 1d6 wind 3 2d6 and wind 4 3d6 automatically and same for all stances would make monks more attractive to people who hate the combos)

that being said i have no problem with current combo system ... cause i come from console background ... I think people who have problems with the current combo system dont understand it and prolly dont use there hot keys on fighters either ...

spamming attacks is a part of mmos its not origional to DDO.

[Xeraphim]

last i checked on live my monk never needed to pass a SR or a DC for his 500 point attack

I meant the other Dark attacks that you never use: Fire Dark Fire, Water Dark Water, or was I misinformed regarding the CHA check by a Dark monk on Argonnessen?

I only ever use Light


Further, 500 points seems a bit excessive, unless Light gets a rather tasty Smite effect(300+ points per hit on a non min/max build), we're going to see a deliberate sway to the Dark Side(I mean seriously, 3d6+8 with +4 to hit on every unbalanced/stunned opponent, THEN add your 500 point death punch? Talk about overpowered!)

[Xeraphim]

I like this idea but i also see them doing it as a feat line choice or a enhancement line choice which to me are two areas that we are already drained in ... unlikely they will just add the dps to the stance which would be my prefered choice and then leave the extra attacks as finihsers (wind 1 doing 1 strike of elec damage wind 2 doing 1d6 wind 3 2d6 and wind 4 3d6 automatically and same for all stances would make monks more attractive to people who hate the combos)

that being said i have no problem with current combo system ... cause i come from console background ... I think people who have problems with the current combo system dont understand it and prolly dont use there hot keys on fighters either ...

spamming attacks is a part of mmos its not origional to DDO.

You know how Monks automatically get the base stances granted to them? This is basically how the idea would work in my cognition. Instead of seeing Stance, Attack as the Enhancement dropdown, you see Stance, Attack, Lesser Ki Strike Toggle. I know I would use it nearly all the time.

Of course, for Portal Beating I would like one that grants Force damage, or a sustained Light one that adds Good damage(without bypassing Good Damage Reduction, based on total Monk level, increases by 1 damage per 3 Monk levels), and for Dark one that adds Evil(Again, without bypassing DR).

[Lleren]

While I would love to remove the clicky spam that is playing a monk, I think it is too late to do so.

I would love if some of the abilities could be done as maintained with a ticking Ki cost though.

[Xeraphim]

While I would love to remove the clicky spam that is playing a monk, I think it is too late to do so.

I would love if some of the abilities could be done as maintained with a ticking Ki cost though.

Like a sustained version of Abundant Step... that would absolutely rock!...

heh, I think our ideas may be looked at in a few years, but for now the Turbine Staff plate is overflowing.

[Borror0]

1) Addressing Criticals: It appears the playerbase REALLY wants a way to beef up the Monk Critical Multiplier and Range, with the Multiplier being the hot topic. This is a topic that I very much want to keep out of the Stance discussion, to avoid making one stance "Teh neu Uber".

I don't see any motivation behind this change. "Players want it" is not always a good justification and I don't think it is in this case. All this would lead to is homogenization of the class. The inability for monks to achieve greater critical multiplier while centered is not a balance issue nor does it enhance gameplay in anyway. In fact, it is even the cause of a "buff" to DPS versus undeads since most builds suffer a greater DPS loss than monks.

Earth stance is only used when blocking in certain raids, and needs a serious adjustment before it becomes a viable combat choice.

As have been brought up several times in the past, Earth stance ought to be the "tanking stance" which means a good part of its benefits ought to comprise a bonus to hate generation. Any other bonuses it would then receive should be balanced in consequence.

Addressing the 5 stat needs of the Dark Monk and the 6 stat needs of the Dark DEX/WIS AC based Ninja Spy

You should elaborate more on why this is an issue. It currently reads as "please buff me."

Addressing Ki Strikes - Most players don't like having to constantly and steadily bash a key on their keyboard while trying to maximize their DPS against a raid boss(Wind Strike), or mash 4 buttons when trying to DPS through a quest.

I would be curious as to why those players decided to play a monk since monks are about activating skills in order to maintain DPS.

[Xeraphim]

I don't see any motivation behind this change. "Players want it" is not always a good justification and I don't think it is in this case. All this would lead to is homogenization of the class. The inability for monks to achieve greater critical multiplier while centered is not a balance issue nor does it enhance gameplay in anyway. In fact, it is even the cause of a "buff" to DPS versus undeads since most builds suffer a greater DPS loss than monks.

It was made a huge deal in the Stance discussion thread. Honestly I don't mind the x2 critical so long as Monks maintain the highest number of attacks in the game in Wind 4 stance(with haste, for comparison purposes only).
__________________________________________________ ___________________

As have been brought up several times in the past, Earth stance ought to be the "tanking stance" which means a good part of its benefits ought to comprise a bonus to hate generation. Any other bonuses it would then receive should be balanced in consequence.

This was part of the Stance Discussion and I think it's a good idea, perhaps even up to 100% or 150% hate generation due to the majority of the time spent blocking. Though that does seem extreme, do remind yourself that you would be competing with 800 point critical hits as a tiny little monk for the purpose of holding aggro.
__________________________________________________ ___________________


You should elaborate more on why this is an issue. It currently reads as "please buff me."

I actually do not have a Dark AC Monk, so am speaking out of related experience.
__________________________________________________ ___________________


I would be curious as to why those players decided to play a monk since monks are about activating skills in order to maintain DPS.

So you assert that I should actively mash my buttons into oblivion while you hit autoattack and sit back and sip a beer? I'd rather drop my stress levels too in a DPS tradeoff for being lazy. As you know Ki Strikes do a healthy 2d8 or 3d7 or some such(I don't look closely anymore, the numbers are a mess anyway) for a small amount of ki, and I would like other monks as well to avoid destroying their Alt or Shift keys(as I bound strikes to those as well as a few others) in order to keep up with the rest of the group. I'd like to sip a beer too. As for the other players that have talked with me about Monks in general, they do like the class, but do not like the AP costs to stay competetive, or the fact that they are actively mashing buttons just to keep DPS up.

Remarks in red

[REALb0r3d]

A change in that new moment of clarity from +5 to hit to +5 to damage seems like a balancing move to me to bring the two styles closer to each other.

This would allow light monks to buff allies in a group and contribute to with damage comparable or higher than FoD depending on attack speed and number of DPS types.

This is all I got, making breakfast burritos

/zoom

[Xeraphim]

A change in that new moment of clarity from +5 to hit to +5 to damage seems like a balancing move to me to bring the two styles closer to each other.

This would allow light monks to buff allies in a group and contribute to with damage comparable or higher than FoD depending on attack speed and number of DPS types.

This is all I got, making breakfast burritos

/zoom

That's actually a good one, though 10 seconds is still WAY too short. 30 seconds is reasonable, but still pretty short. The 1 minute buff timers are extremely short currently, and I would like seeing Walk the Sun and Aligning the Heavens and such become like the Clicky Metamagics - 3 minute buffs. I would expect that Dark Debuffs got an equivalent extension.

For To-Hit issues I use Walk the Sun, so I would want it to not stack with the Void Light Void(same bonus type) to avoid overpowering it. Changing Moment of Clarity then to a Damage boost is probably the best way to go about it.