U5 weapon and build decisions for TR'ed tank

[sephiroth1084]

So, there are a few changes coming down the pipe that directly affect Ferrumrym on his next life:
1) TWF off-hand attacks are reduced by around 20% with GTWF, making that style slightly less attractive than it had been, although it still remains pretty useful for a paladin as their bonuses dovetail nicely with the extra attacks.

2) Zeal has been changed from a flat 10% attack speed increase to a "double-strike" bonus, which is a chance to trigger an extra main-hand attack hook, which favors THF over TWF somewhat, as your main-hand damage is significantly higher when wielding a 2-hander (+100% Power Attack, +50% Str).

3) Glancing blows and the THF feats are being made to function with bastard swords and dwarven axes, which means for what appears to be a fairly significant boost to S&B damage. I've read some DPS calculations that seem to indicate that a S&B using a khopesh may still be ahead, but the numbers I saw were confusingly presented, and in such a way as to make ti difficult to plug in the numbers for scimitars to make that comparison.

So, with all of that coming down the pipe, I have to wonder whether I'd be doing my tank a disservice by not giving him GTHF and either bastard sword or dwarven axe proficiency instead of my plan of going GTWF and using scimitars.

Differences from the original build idea to the next highlighted in red.

Scimitar set-up:
Human
Human Adaptability - some combo of Str, Con or Cha probably depending on where I need the boost
Human Healing Amp 10% (don't think I can fit in 20%)

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Crit
Maximize
Quicken
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Toughness
Fighter Past Life feat (+2 intimidate, +1 max Dex with armor, 3/rest clicky of +4 attack bonus)

Mineral II scimitar w/ +4 AC on it
Lightning II scimitar
Holy Sword scimitar used when TWF in conjunction with the Mineral II or Lightning II depending on situation


Bastard sword set-up:
Human
Human Adaptability - some combo of Str, Con or Cha probably depending on where I need the boost
Human Healing Amp 10% (don't think I can fit in 20%)

THF
ITHF
GTHF
Improved Crit
Maximize
Quicken
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Toughness
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard sword

Mineral II bastard sword w/ +4 AC on it
Lightning II bastard sword
Lightning II falchion
Holy Sword Falchion (loss of +4 AC here means that the AC difference between AC mode and DPS mode will be greater)


Dwarven Axe set-up:
Dwarf
Dwarven Armor Mastery I (or II)
Dwarven Axe Damage I (or II)
Dwarven Axe Attack (I or II)

THF
ITHF
GTHF
Improved Crit
Maximize
Quicken
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Toughness

Mineral II Dwarven Axe w/ +4 AC on it (already have)
Mineral II Greataxe w/ +4 AC on it (maybe) -- no Holy Sword for greataxes
Lightning II Dwarven Axe
Lightning II Greataxe



Hmm...oddly enough, TWF would mean less crafting, which is kind of backwards, and while part of me would want to make the decision based on that (after all, I still have nothing made for my capped barbarian, and nothing coming soon either, since all of my ingredients are being routed to crafting stuff for Ferrumrym's next life), but as he should be as strong an endgame tank as he can be, I feel like shortchanging his weapon choices in an attempt to save some larges would be shortsighted.

So I guess my questions are whether someone with better damage calc-fu than I could provide some numbers breakdown to show just what the differences in DPS between the 3 end up being, possibly accounting for a +4 bonus to-hit with the scimitars some of the time in epics, and I guess opinions in general.

[lord_of_rage]

So, there are a few changes coming down the pipe that directly affect Ferrumrym on his next life:
1) TWF off-hand attacks are reduced by around 20% with GTWF, making that style slightly less attractive than it had been, although it still remains pretty useful for a paladin as their bonuses dovetail nicely with the extra attacks.

2) Zeal has been changed from a flat 10% attack speed increase to a "double-strike" bonus, which is a chance to trigger an extra main-hand attack hook, which favors THF over TWF somewhat, as your main-hand damage is significantly higher when wielding a 2-hander (+100% Power Attack, +50% Str).

3) Glancing blows and the THF feats are being made to function with bastard swords and dwarven axes, which means for what appears to be a fairly significant boost to S&B damage. I've read some DPS calculations that seem to indicate that a S&B using a khopesh may still be ahead, but the numbers I saw were confusingly presented, and in such a way as to make ti difficult to plug in the numbers for scimitars to make that comparison.

So, with all of that coming down the pipe, I have to wonder whether I'd be doing my tank a disservice by not giving him GTHF and either bastard sword or dwarven axe proficiency instead of my plan of going GTWF and using scimitars.

Differences from the original build idea to the next highlighted in red.

Scimitar set-up:
Human
Human Adaptability - some combo of Str, Con or Cha probably depending on where I need the boost
Human Healing Amp 10% (don't think I can fit in 20%)

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Improved Crit
Maximize
Quicken
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Toughness
Fighter Past Life feat (+2 intimidate, +1 max Dex with armor, 3/rest clicky of +4 attack bonus)

Mineral II scimitar w/ +4 AC on it
Lightning II scimitar
Holy Sword scimitar used when TWF in conjunction with the Mineral II or Lightning II depending on situation


Bastard sword set-up:
Human
Human Adaptability - some combo of Str, Con or Cha probably depending on where I need the boost
Human Healing Amp 10% (don't think I can fit in 20%)

THF
ITHF
GTHF
Improved Crit
Maximize
Quicken
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Toughness
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard sword

Mineral II bastard sword w/ +4 AC on it
Lightning II bastard sword
Lightning II falchion
Holy Sword Falchion (loss of +4 AC here means that the AC difference between AC mode and DPS mode will be greater)


Dwarven Axe set-up:
Dwarf
Dwarven Armor Mastery I (or II)
Dwarven Axe Damage I (or II)
Dwarven Axe Attack (I or II)

THF
ITHF
GTHF
Improved Crit
Maximize
Quicken
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Toughness

Mineral II Dwarven Axe w/ +4 AC on it (already have)
Mineral II Greataxe w/ +4 AC on it (maybe) -- no Holy Sword for greataxes
Lightning II Dwarven Axe
Lightning II Greataxe



Hmm...oddly enough, TWF would mean less crafting, which is kind of backwards, and while part of me would want to make the decision based on that (after all, I still have nothing made for my capped barbarian, and nothing coming soon either, since all of my ingredients are being routed to crafting stuff for Ferrumrym's next life), but as he should be as strong an endgame tank as he can be, I feel like shortchanging his weapon choices in an attempt to save some larges would be shortsighted.

So I guess my questions are whether someone with better damage calc-fu than I could provide some numbers breakdown to show just what the differences in DPS between the 3 end up being, possibly accounting for a +4 bonus to-hit with the scimitars some of the time in epics, and I guess opinions in general.

Ive been running the same ideas on the dwarf for a bit now. I do believe that there are holysword great axes. Ill check when I log in tonight. Youll pull two more ac out of it ,have better saves, and more hp. Id love to see some numbers aswell. Ill bounce some things off you tonight.

[SteeleTrueheart]

There are no holy sword falchions.

[PopeJual]

3) Glancing blows and the THF feats are being made to function with bastard swords and dwarven axes, which means for what appears to be a fairly significant boost to S&B damage. I've read some DPS calculations that seem to indicate that a S&B using a khopesh may still be ahead, but the numbers I saw were confusingly presented, and in such a way as to make ti difficult to plug in the numbers for scimitars to make that comparison.

I'd be interested in seeing some highly detailed and rigorous testing with a Guild Airship Dummy and a character with/without the THF feat chain to see what the difference is here.

I know that Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes were given Glancing Blows when they are the only weapon that you are weilding (off hand is either empty or holding a shield), but I'd like to see a player tester confirm that the feat chain actually does give you a significant boost in glancing blows proc rate and effectiveness before I'd build an entire character around the concept.

That said, I'd LOVE to see a Paladin intimitank with Defender of Syberis and Bastard Sword face smashing just because it so very much matches what I personally see as the Paladin archetype.

[sephiroth1084]

There are no holy sword falchions.

Yeah, another typo on that one from me today.

[SteeleTrueheart]

I'd be interested in seeing some highly detailed and rigorous testing with a Guild Airship Dummy and a character with/without the THF feat chain to see what the difference is here.

My GTHF Bastard sword user is on Llamaland.

Tonight (or when I remember) I will run him out to amrath and do some more testing. I tried last night but ran into the doublestrike bug. Which showed me it is not based on what I thought it was based on previously.

From what I saw last night when I initialy tested, the GTHF glancing was proccing nearly 100% of the time (Obviously bugged). It did not use the soundeffect like doublestrike and the second number was always 15-18 while the main number was hitting in the 30-60 range depending on crit. Generic +1 weapon. minimal buffs.

This character is an 18pali/2fighter with the defender PrE and full GTHF feat line.

That said. Since I had the doublestrike bug (the only way to remove is by loggin out of the game for an extended period) I decided to play around in the devil battlefield.

With DoS stance a towershield and a triple positive bastardsword I aggroed 3 orthons 2 devils and 3 tieflings and grouped them up. Not focused on any particular mob, just swinging. Awesome and quick. Nearly everything died at about the same time (tiefling first of course) with a simple mop up afterwards. Little damage taken and my AC would have been in the low 60's. It was nice to see.

[Aerendil]

I've had the same thoughts but for the TWF line instead.
The "monkadin" (Pal/Monk with WSS and longswords) looks to be quite viable now, but I'm curious if the extra double attack will make up for the loss of crit threat range and multipliers on the superior rapier/scimitar/khopesh.

Some tough calls for the future for weaponry.