So now that we know the nerf isn't getting rid of DPS lag

[Angelus_dead]

5. I have to draw a line here. It's not exploiting. If it's been in the game for over a year and no dev has called it an exploit it's all fair game. I'm sure it was not meant to work this way, but tons of stuff in game was not meant to work how it works, but it's still not an exploit.

My name is Inigo Montoya.

[mediocresurgeon]

They have stated that they are going to put a system for glancing blows in similar to the system for offhand procs in the future. I would rather have them leave glancing while moving in the game until then, and change it all at once, rather than nerfing our DPS until they can figure it out.

emphatically /signed

[Chai]

How about to fix ranged combat, they get a 25% increase in ranged attack speed if they jump up and down?

Now introducing the pepe le pew ranger AA capstone plus kiting max dps build...

[Emili]

Uhh, twitch fighting being fixed doesn't mean they have to stop moving while attacking. Twitch fighting is a mistake in the coding, which causes THF to get more attacks by moving a specific way, breakign the attack chain. They could easily fix the attack chain to stop that.

Also, the internal changes to TWF are NOT improving the lag anyway, so there's no point in doing it without nerfing. It is MEANT to be a nerf. The devs will nerf whether it's done this way or not.

And they've already responded to the server suggestions by saying they've already had major overhauls on them. They wont be doing it again for awhile, for obvious reasons. There's a huge influx of people entering and leaving the game. It's obvious they would want to see exactly how much work they need to do to the servers before they do it.

The only reason you get more attacks while moving is that the first two attacks are closer together in time... I mentioned this in plenty of threads in the past... SnB, TwF ThF and SNB all follow the beat of a different drum... and not one keeps an even tempo'd attack there are syncopated which do not match each style in both tempo and time signature. SnB is actually the steadiest 1 . 2 .. 3 .. 4 ... while ThF has two extreme retardations on the last two swings.

[eulogy098]

The correct solution regarding putting an end to twitch fighting is----

Increase the time between attacks from the 2nd swing and 3rd and 3rd to 4th to the same speed of 1st to 2nd. Problem solved, move along. This accomplishes a lot, its a tiny dps boost for THF making THF closer to TWF and as stated by turbine this is what they want. There, mildly rebalanced without nerfing TWF.

Sense the whole process of changing TWF mechanics did nothing to help with lag- totally scrap it.

Reduce all attack speed by everyone by like 5%, reduce all monster HP by 5%: hardly noticeable by players but will likely do more to prevent lag than all of that absurd "double strike" and "110 80" off hand ****.

And than to top it off, upgrade the bloody server hardware.


Ive solved all problems, everyone is happy. Where's my cake?

[zealous]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

You've got it kinda backwards

1. Because it's freaking dumb.
2. Because it's unfair and stupid that one kind of weapon style benefits from it and other don't.
3. Because it's embarrassing to play a game with such a pathetic bug where the developers can't even control something as fundamental as how fast players attack.
4. Because it's monstrously counterintuitive and hard to explain to new players.
5. Because exploiting shouldn't be rewarded.

1. Don't find it dumb, I do find it fun.
2. 2wf benefits from it too, just not as much.
3. True =P
4. Standing still while swinging a heavy object is counterintuitive, moving while swinging it is not. Just take a look at the animations of standing 2h and compare them to how twitch looks like. Hard to explain, dunno, think it's one of the easier things to explain.
5. If it is a exploit wouldn't the numerous posts on it have been removed?

Having to concentrate while fighting is fun.
Rewarding effort is good.
Twitch granting increased mobility is good.
Twitch granting a massive dps increase is bad.

There is a certain speed the in game attack animation allows a player to attack. When players, through skillful manipulation of the controls, find a way to increase the speed at which they attack, they increase their DPS. Arguably, this interrupts the balance in the game pertaining to that playstyle -vs- other playstyles. (again, remember that I said arguably ) This happened once before in DDO and we named it "spaz attacking". Nowdays the animation continues through for a split second and we have a progressive attack chain due to the changes made in the "spaz attack" era.

Wasn't the "spaz attack" fixed by introducing cooldowns on item swapping, and thereby strangely to action boosts (breaking many of them)?

Or was there a "spaz attack" prior to the "spaz attack" I remember? iirc correctly we've had progressive attack chains since release or longer, could have been in closed beta?

[Creeper]

Arguing with Shade about twitching is kinda like arguing with me about forum creeping.

I’m just saying…

I remember two or three times in the past people argued with Shade that twitching and the like were dead; they were so sure of it, and it is still around.

Funny thing is most people claiming this kills THF—I guess they haven’t played Llama twitch-land yet. Double strike on twitching is pretty brutal. All this has done has made me drop the THF line for three more toughness feats… The thing this glancing blow nerf kills is THF characters without any double strike bonus and essentially it makes taking the THF line for glancing blows even more useless than it already was. Again double strike makes twitching even more powerful the way it is coded ATM. The glancing blow nerf just frees up feats.

That’s just my opinion however, after having played around with it.
STR based twitching Q-staff 6/14 monk paladin FTW.

[Creeper]

Wasn't the "spaz attack" fixed by introducing cooldowns on item swapping, and thereby strangely to action boosts (breaking many of them)?

Or was there a "spaz attack" prior to the "spaz attack" I remember? iirc correctly we've had progressive attack chains since release or longer, could have been in closed beta?

Yup, the swap cooldown totally killed it. This happened way before 2008 though.

[Raiderone]

Double the attack penality for moving while fighting. From -4 to hit, To -8 to hit.

I tell you the one thing I always loved about PNP was Initiative or Turn Based Attacks.

Too bad some version of it couldnt be implemented. maybe during a raid only half of group can attack at one time. then the other half.

I know it's not possible since this isn't turn based attack....

[Logic]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

I agree with this.

I have a TWF FvS melee character. My dps is already far less than other builds (which is fine with me because I can heal), and now I'm taking a 20% nerf to my offhand? I'll be doing about 1/2 the damage of a barb...

[Vynnt]

Yeah, the multiclasses with 6 ranger is getting hit hard. but a pure tempest isn't getting hit that hard. Losing that extra attack, how does that compare to a fighter losing 30% of their offhand procs? Fighters were at 110%/110% and are now sitting at 110%/80%.

Technically, Fighters were 110%/110% now are 110%/88% (80% proc x 10% double). Tempest 3 was 110%/123% (112.5% proc + 10% speed), now 105%/105%. Both are losing ~25% damage.

[Creeper]

Double the attack penality for moving while fighting. From -4 to hit, To -8 to hit.

All this will do is make classes who can't reach high attack roll stop twitching/moving IE. any class that's not a Barbarian or Fighter. -4 attack means nothing to twitch builds because they are already intentionaly giving up their attack roll progression for more DPS.

[oberon131313]

I will state before anything else that I only read page 1, but to Shade I have this to say: "twitching" is the same thing as "machine gunning"...using a game mechanic to artificially increase the total number of attacks. We all know what happened to machine gunning.

The proper thing to do would be to normalize attack speeds so that twitching gave no benefit over standing still, and allow glancing blows while moving again. This prevents twitching for twitching sake, which lowers collision detection, but does not penalize chasing a moving target.

[BlackSteel]

keep glancing blows, just change the requirements for the feats over to dex, I mean it must take some dexterity to swing that thing around and not hit yourself in the head.

I'd gladly pay out some dex in order to maintain glancing blows on the move. And TWF would still be more damage for every class but maybe barb anyway.

[FluffyCalico]

Double the attack penality for moving while fighting. From -4 to hit, To -8 to hit.

....

You can double it and then double it again to -16 ...I assure you unless I am in epic my fighter won't notice. Neither will barbs

[shadosatblackphoenix]

As someone said already, the best for twitching is to change the timing between attacks to be the same throughout the combo, instead of being shorter between the first 2 attacks. Problem solved.

You can either make everything the same speed as 1 and 2 and give THF a small (needed) boost, which ends up being the same as with perfect twitching currently, or just space out so the entire combo gets the same amount of attacks as currently, but with 1 and 2 spaced out like the average of the combo, thus nerfing THF a little bit against weak stuff, but no difference in raids.

I would think avoiding an unnecessary nerf is best, its not like it will break the game to just make all attacks at 1-2 speed, but it matters little. Just get rid of the THF dance

[justagame]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

Seriously? Was twitch really a problem? TWF isn't far enough ahead already? If you support an across-the-board reduction, and want to be fair to ALL builds, why the extra THF reduction?

[redraider]

You have any idea what your suggesting?

2 ludicrous things:
1) That twitch attack is any way a "glitch" . Theres no logic to that. No where has a dev ever stated that. Do you even know how what it means?
2) That you could "fix it" without irreparably destroying the combat system.

Twitch attack is nothing more then moving while attacking.
To remove that, is to to remove moving while attacking.

To do what you suggesting would mean that no one would be able to move while attacking anymore. Niot TWF, not THF, no rangers, and for balance, not even casters should be able to cast while moving.

Does that sound fun to you?

Think things through before you make suggestions.

What needs to be done is all attack speed nerfs need to be reverted by giving everyone a +10% boost across the board. Classes with double strikes could retain those benefits.
The combat nerfs for both TWF And THF should be shelved as they aren't helping the game in any way.
The internal change to TWF to make it reduce lag can be implemented without nerfing the style.
More internal optimizations and better servers is whats needed in the end to complete fix the lag. Not nerfs.

Shade shows his butt again... Learn to relax and be nice Shade. It's easy. And fun.

[Eladiun]

The combat nerfs for both TWF And THF should be shelved as they aren't helping the game in any way.
The internal change to TWF to make it reduce lag can be implemented without nerfing the style.
More internal optimizations and better servers is whats needed in the end to complete fix the lag. Not nerfs.

Especially since they do nothing to fix DPS lag anyway.

[osirisisis]

Could find find a different way to lower DPS? For both TWF AND THF?

The TWF nerf is breaking a lot of builds, and doesn't seem to be balanced as far as lowering all TWF DPS equally. It seems Tempests get the lowest nerf while monks and rogues take a big hit.''And THF is just an odd way to do it.

Why not scrap this idea since it didn't help the lag much, and just scale down the DPS? Maybe just lower attack speeds by 10% and fix the THF attack chain to stop twitching from happening?

Statement removed do to way to much over dramatization....