So now that we know the nerf isn't getting rid of DPS lag

[flynnjsw]

As opposed to a complete uproar from everybody with any sense? Basically the only way you can agree with the current nerf is if you are employed by Turbine, and thus want the nerf to happen (for the real reason it's happening) or S&B 8 STR dagger users who can't get through Heyton's Rest and want the game "easier" to play.

And the real reason this nerf is happening is to force a short-term boost to store revenues by forcing reincarnations of all those affected, as well as longer term boost by increasing the grind and forcing people to buy more healing and sp pots. Though as it starts to push the game away from the faster paced combat that gives it an edge over other, crappier, MMO's, the long term prospects are much more grim.

You really need to adjust the tin foil hat you are wearing; it has gotten so tight it is cutting of circulation.

[FluffyCalico]

actually not true, they did eliminate the 5th swing on both fighting styles, which bumped up attacks/min slightly, if they hadnt also slowed us down at the same time.

during the same update they attempted to unsuccessfully 'fix' twitch attacking. theres a dev quote of that one too, but someone else can drag it up.

They also more recently were moving around the off hand hooks to make sure they did not front load the offhands and extra main hand (ranger) as they did not want to break twf to where they would twitch. There are tons of dev posts that moving while attacking is NOT supposed to increase your attack speed nor do they want it to. Shade you know back when we had that week or so of super slowness and the haste nerf and all that good stuff.

[BlackSteel]

They also more recently were moving around the off hand hooks to make sure they did not front load the offhands and extra main hand (ranger) as they did not want to break twf to where they would twitch. There are tons of dev posts that moving while attacking is NOT supposed to increase your attack speed nor do they want it to. Shade you know back when we had that week or so of super slowness and the haste nerf and all that good stuff.

shhhh watch out, if you're mean to him he likes to say things like this to you:

So show some respect for your community and stop posting things that really don't contribute anything to the topic.

and then report you for harassment

[Gobbothegreen]

Yeah, the multiclasses with 6 ranger is getting hit hard. but a pure tempest isn't getting hit that hard. Losing that extra attack, how does that compare to a fighter losing 30% of their offhand procs? Fighters were at 110%/110% and are now sitting at 110%/80%.

Well maybe you should compare what rangers had before, they where at 110%/137.5% and now they are 105%/100% so they loose 37.5% offhand and 5% mainhand. Please don't just cry how badly nerfed your fighter and rangers dont get hurt at all, pure fighter remains one of the highest dps builds, while rangers are pretty much not worth rolling anymore.

Personaly i don't think the nerf is to bad, only things i don't really like is how badly hurt tempest and barbs are hurt and im kinda against the ESOS nerf it is an epic weapon it should be EPIC, now its just not good enough.

[Chai]

The only way to prevent it from happening as you suggest, would be removing the ability to attack while moving. There is no other logical way.

No.

Another logical way would be to make it so the entire combat animation continues to play out unless you stopped swinging for three seconds or more. That would crush all twitching to improve DPS, and still not affect attacking when moving one bit.

The fact that they have not literally done this is showing that they are not directly going after the twitch playstyle, yet...

Yes saying Turbne is against twitching is conjecture, but so is saying they are not against twitching, as we have no evidence to back either claim up. Do you remember spaz attacking? Now we all have nice wonderful progressive attack chains. Spaz attacking did the same thing as twitching does. It sped up the combat animation through skillfully moving your toon when attacking.

They have stated that they are going to put a system for glancing blows in similar to the system for offhand procs in the future. I would rather have them leave glancing while moving in the game until then, and change it all at once, rather than nerfing our DPS until they can figure it out.

[Chai]

Well maybe you should compare what rangers had before, they where at 110%/137.5% and now they are 105%/100% so they loose 37.5% offhand and 5% mainhand. Please don't just cry how badly nerfed your fighter and rangers dont get hurt at all, pure fighter remains one of the highest dps builds, while rangers are pretty much not worth rolling anymore.

Personaly i don't think the nerf is to bad, only things i don't really like is how badly hurt tempest and barbs are hurt and im kinda against the ESOS nerf it is an epic weapon it should be EPIC, now its just not good enough.

Rangers still have the best offhand proc in the game and are the only pure class that will get this to 100%. Everyone else gets to sit somewhere in the 80s in percentile. How are rangers useless again?

[krud]

First it can't be "fixxed" you fix whats broken, there's nothing broken here.

And yea it would mean exactly that as you propose it. You really haven't thought this out at all.

It's really pretty basic tho. Twtich attack involves using an atack while moving in quick succession, it requires real player skill, very strong attack bonuses as you take a constant attack penalty ,and it nets you very little dps gain. It does not cause any lag like twf does and is not a big deal that warrants any type of nerf. There is no logic to what your trying to argue.

The only way to prevent it from happening as you suggest, would be removing the ability to attack while moving. There is no other logical way.

And your arrogant to say that this is not intended, you are not a dev and that is pure conjecture.

They won't make any attempt to change it for update5. It will still be useful for certain characters in certain situations.

Can you explain what this 'twitching' is supposed to be emulating in combat? Is it a flanking manuever? Is it something like spring attack? What is a 'twitching' THF supposed to be doing in combat terms that justifies making someone swing faster?

[Gobbothegreen]

Rangers still have the best offhand proc in the game and are the only pure class that will get this to 100%. Everyone else gets to sit somewhere in the 80s in percentile. How are rangers useless again?

Some people seem to be fixated by they have 100% offhand proc, so what?
Look at what they have now (110main and 137.5% offhand) and they are still behind in damage for arguable "utility", their survivablity is lower than the heavy hitters in endgame.
Now their dps will be even further behind loosing their some very important 5% in the mainhand AND they also loose in offhand comparable to other classes, so they still attack the fastest without boosts but the advanatage is even less. So now they will be even further behind in dps, their utility will be as usefull and their survivability will be just as low. So whats the point in rolling a ranger? You get lower damage, lower survivabilty and all you get is some utility, which other classes with better damage and/or survivabilty can to.

But this has been argued MANY times before and you have been there discussing it chai and you still dont see it, if you want to see more arguments and numbers please read through the mega thread.

[Ranmaru2]

Or better yet, explain how Glancing Blows on a single target makes any sense what-so-ever.

Boohoo, you're losing glancing blows. It made no sense anyway considering the attack animation.

[grodon9999]

That's just not true at all. Tempest, and then rangers, have the least amount of nerf from this, since STWF isn't making the game. Tempest will still have more offhand attacks than any other class, plus their 5% doublestrike.

Tempest IIIS lose 41 attacks/minute, maybe monks lose more but that's it (I don't know the monk numbers).

[grodon9999]

Rangers still have the best offhand proc in the game and are the only pure class that will get this to 100%. Everyone else gets to sit somewhere in the 80s in percentile. How are rangers useless again?

Based on last night's test, FAR from it. We still kicked enough @ss to break the server

The nerf's DO NOT make rangers useless but keep it real, they are losing the most attacks. Since these nerfs DO NOT FIX LAG they are pointless.

[krud]

Rangers still have the best offhand proc in the game and are the only pure class that will get this to 100%. Everyone else gets to sit somewhere in the 80s in percentile. How are rangers useless again?

Those extra offhand attacks are needed to keep rangers roughly equal to all the others. If they didn't get those they'd become worse than the others.

[Ranmaru2]

Since these nerfs DO NOT FIX LAG they are pointless.

I think their Mob HP calculation system takes a huge hit and slows down tremendously when it needs to calculate huge drops of HPs and then sync it up with anywhere from 1-12 different clients at the same time. It seems that massive HP drop calculations at a time (IE 6 melees with eSoS in eVoN 6 still produce just as much DPS lag as a bunch of TWFers in the Shroud currently on Live - Having been in one such run, I can vouch for saying this) tend to lag out the server as it has to quickly cram together the numbers and then drop the HPs of the mob down to the proper intervals, but since it is then behind again it just starts chunking it (IE Shroud portals).

[grodon9999]

Those extra offhand attacks are needed to keep rangers roughly equal to all the others. If they didn't get those they'd become worse than the others.

We're only close equal against favored enemies WITH the extra off-hand attacks, against non-favored we hit about as hard as battle-clerics. I nearly cry when I hit Velah

[krud]

We're only close equal against favored enemies WITH the extra off-hand attacks, against non-favored we hit about as hard as battle-clerics. I nearly cry when I hit Velah

When I plug in MonkeyArchers criteria, and compare TWF khopesh FB, Kensai, and tempests, that is what I am seeing.

TWF barbs are pretty far ahead, Tempest against FE are slightly ahead of kensai, but against non-FE . Give the fighter his haste boost and he pulls ahead for short bursts.

My #s vs 0% fort, (probably slightly different than Monkey's due to rounding/truncation differences, etc)

FB 418
Rogue (SA) 378
Tempest (FE) 347
Kensai 344
Tempest 274
Rogue (noSA) 231

[Zion_Halcyon]

Is it wrong that I want to see the twitch attack chain fixed, even as a THF Barb, just because I think I would grossly enjoy the meltdown of a certain poster with a very bad entitlement issue?

Not naming names Just if it ever does occur, someone please pass the popcorn



*FYI, as long as I can still kill stuff and complete any quest, I don't care to nerd-rage over it going a little slower *

[grodon9999]

Is it wrong that I want to see the twitch attack chain fixed, even as a THF Barb, just because I think I would grossly enjoy the meltdown of a certain poster with a very bad entitlement issue?

Not naming names Just if it ever does occur, someone please pass the popcorn



*FYI, as long as I can still kill stuff and complete any quest, I don't care to nerd-rage over it going a little slower *

Serious question, does anyone want to see THF twitch-combat "fixed" for any reason other than it'd annoy Shade?

What is the harm in THF twitch? it doesn't cause lag and lets THF stay competitive. Leave it be, it ain't broken so don't fix it. If the devs want to "fix" it for whatever reason add something to the last hit in the GTWF chain that would make the damage comparable to twitching if they stand still.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes saying Turbne is against twitching is conjecture, but so is saying they are not against twitching, as we have no evidence to back either claim up.

We have sufficient evidence to show they don't want twitch combat. We got a specific statement from the developers that attack rate will be the same regardless of if you are stationary or moving.

That statement turned out to be untrue, but it tells us what their intention was.

[Chai]

Some people seem to be fixated by they have 100% offhand proc, so what?
Look at what they have now (110main and 137.5% offhand) and they are still behind in damage for arguable "utility", their survivablity is lower than the heavy hitters in endgame.
Now their dps will be even further behind loosing their some very important 5% in the mainhand AND they also loose in offhand comparable to other classes, so they still attack the fastest without boosts but the advanatage is even less. So now they will be even further behind in dps, their utility will be as usefull and their survivability will be just as low. So whats the point in rolling a ranger? You get lower damage, lower survivabilty and all you get is some utility, which other classes with better damage and/or survivabilty can to.

But this has been argued MANY times before and you have been there discussing it chai and you still dont see it, if you want to see more arguments and numbers please read through the mega thread.

It makes the AA -vs- tempest choice an actual debate.

I can now go AA without hearing all the absolutists chime in with how gimped the toon is.

Ranger will still have the best stat damage output, the best chance of vorpal, banishing, disrupting, smiting, etc.

I like it because its more of a debate and not so clear cut like it used to be.

I could care less about numbers on paper, and I am more of a hands on implementation and results kinda guy. We dont play in the same vacuum you calc your DPS in, as this is a situational game.

Rangers, welcome to the gray area.

[Angelus_dead]

Serious question, does anyone want to see THF twitch-combat "fixed" for any reason other than it'd annoy Shade?

What is the harm in THF twitch?

1. Because it's freaking dumb.
2. Because it's unfair and stupid that one kind of weapon style benefits from it and other don't.
3. Because it's embarrassing to play a game with such a pathetic bug where the developers can't even control something as fundamental as how fast players attack.
4. Because it's monstrously counterintuitive and hard to explain to new players.
5. Because exploiting shouldn't be rewarded.