So now that we know the nerf isn't getting rid of DPS lag

[grodon9999]

It makes the AA -vs- tempest choice an actual debate.

I can now go AA without hearing all the absolutists chime in with how gimped the toon is.

Ranger will still have the best stat damage output, the best chance of vorpal, banishing, disrupting, smiting, etc.

I like it because its more of a debate and not so clear cut like it used to be.

I could care less about numbers on paper, and I am more of a hands on implementation and results kinda guy. We dont play in the same vacuum you calc your DPS in, as this is a situational game.

Rangers, welcome to the gray area.

An AA who switches to melee now when manyshot is off is only a little bit of DPS behind a tempest, this can be made up for with IPS easily. The only "gimped" AAs are ones that never put down the bow.

[Gobbothegreen]

It makes the AA -vs- tempest choice an actual debate.

I can now go AA without hearing all the absolutists chime in with how gimped the toon is.

Ranger will still have the best stat damage output, the best chance of vorpal, banishing, disrupting, smiting, etc.

I like it because its more of a debate and not so clear cut like it used to be.

I could care less about numbers on paper, and I am more of a hands on implementation and results kinda guy. We dont play in the same vacuum you calc your DPS in, as this is a situational game.

Rangers, welcome to the gray area.

So 2 not very good options=Good?
Your AA will still be called a gimp(just becuase tempests become worse doesnt make ranged better) and now rangers will not be looked for anymore when groups need dps (even happens currently at times).
EDIT: note i dont myself think thatrangers are not viable dps anymore.


Stat damage/vorpaling is useless endgame, only point for it i would se would be weighted but thats nerfed to.

Sigh, im just rolling a cookie cutter fighter to replace my ranger.

[grodon9999]

1. Because it's freaking dumb.

A matter of opinion

2. Because it's unfair and stupid that one kind of weapon style benefits from it and other don't.

TWF gives a bunch more damage and has other advantages such of vorping. *** for tat.

3. Because it's embarrassing to play a game with such a pathetic bug where the developers can't even control something as fundamental as how fast players attack.

Bug - has this been declared a bug by the devs?

4. Because it's monstrously counterintuitive and hard to explain to new players.

There is SO much stuff that is hard to explain to new players that if this were the basis you'd have to eliminate half the game.

5. Because exploiting shouldn't be rewarded.

As an Exploiter, I take offense to that!

[MrWizard]

haste used to be a 25% increase, not 10% yet we survived.

I think we will be fine. They will make some modifications to it based on our feedback (uproar) but I feel, in my opinion, since it is on lammania already that it has been in the works for quite some time. I feel it is already coded and built in. They are just 'thinking' of last minute changes. Its a done deal.


We just move on. And keep playing. That 3 second fight might last one more second.
It is less than the 15% haste nerf.

Good reason to bring a crowd control caster along now.

[Angelus_dead]

haste used to be a 25% increase, not 10% yet we survived.

Newsflash: The change that reduced Haste also increased the natural attack rate to compensate.
Super Newsflash: The Madstone bonus was not reduced at that time, so the total effect was FASTER speed than before.

[krud]

It makes the AA -vs- tempest choice an actual debate. Then you have two choices that are both going to be weaker. Rangers will be reliving mods 1-3 all over again.

I can now go AA without hearing all the absolutists chime in with how gimped the toon is.

Ranger will still have the best stat damage output, the best chance of vorpal, banishing, disrupting, smiting, etc.

I like it because its more of a debate and not so clear cut like it used to be.

I could care less about numbers on paper, and I am more of a hands on implementation and results kinda guy. We dont play in the same vacuum you calc your DPS in, as this is a situational game.

Rangers, welcome to the gray area.

The problem with vorpal, banish, etc is that they rapidly lose effectiveness in higher levels, due to immunities and/or high saves. Stat damaging does not work well in epic, or against end bosses. I've made enough stat damaging/dex toons to know where it becomes weak. There are enough situations where pure dps is needed, that it should be an important consideration when balancing classes and combat styles. Rangers, especially tempest rangers are supposed to excel at twf. It doesn't seem to be holding up under the proposed changes.

[grodon9999]

. . .and now rangers will not be looked for anymore when groups need dps (even happens currently at times).

Sorry, anyone of that opinion doesn't understand the game. 5 Tempest rangers and 4 monks last night (no barbs or fighters, we had 1 THF Paladin) utterly destroyed Harry in 1 round with 41 attacks/minute sucked out from under us.

[grodon9999]

haste used to be a 25% increase, not 10% yet we survived.

I think we will be fine. They will make some modifications to it based on our feedback (uproar) but I feel, in my opinion, since it is on lammania already that it has been in the works for quite some time. I feel it is already coded and built in. They are just 'thinking' of last minute changes. Its a done deal.


We just move on. And keep playing. That 3 second fight might last one more second.
It is less than the 15% haste nerf.

Good reason to bring a crowd control caster along now.

You're not getting it, the nerfs fix NOTHING. They are pointless. Do they break the game? No but at the same time there is nothing positive about the changes to combat.

[krud]

Serious question, does anyone want to see THF twitch-combat "fixed" for any reason other than it'd annoy Shade?

What is the harm in THF twitch? it doesn't cause lag and lets THF stay competitive. Leave it be, it ain't broken so don't fix it. If the devs want to "fix" it for whatever reason add something to the last hit in the GTWF chain that would make the damage comparable to twitching if they stand still.

Maybe i'll ask you the same question I posed shade:

Can you explain what this 'twitching' is supposed to be emulating in combat? Is it a flanking manuever? Is it something like spring attack? What is a 'twitching' THF supposed to be doing in combat terms that justifies making someone swing faster? Why would it be exclusive to THF?

[Chai]

Serious question, does anyone want to see THF twitch-combat "fixed" for any reason other than it'd annoy Shade?

What is the harm in THF twitch? it doesn't cause lag and lets THF stay competitive. Leave it be, it ain't broken so don't fix it. If the devs want to "fix" it for whatever reason add something to the last hit in the GTWF chain that would make the damage comparable to twitching if they stand still.

There is a certain speed the in game attack animation allows a player to attack. When players, through skillful manipulation of the controls, find a way to increase the speed at which they attack, they increase their DPS. Arguably, this interrupts the balance in the game pertaining to that playstyle -vs- other playstyles. (again, remember that I said arguably ) This happened once before in DDO and we named it "spaz attacking". Nowdays the animation continues through for a split second and we have a progressive attack chain due to the changes made in the "spaz attack" era.

While the devs dont literally come out and say they are against twitching, they havent stated they dont mind it either. My opinion on this is that they likely dont give alot of attention to it due to the fact that the DPS increase isnt completely out of control like it was in the spaz attack era. Many times I have stated this it gets quoted and labeled conjecture, and yes that is what it is, as is anything that cant be 100% proven.

If the devs REALLY wanted to take twitch out of the game, they could make the the entire combat animation play out if you stop and start attacking, unless you stop attacking for three seconds or longer. They would not need to go through taking glancing blows while moving out of the game. Twitching under those circumstances would mean a loss in DPS. They have not done so yet, and instead chose to nerf glances while moving altogether.

[krud]

How about to fix ranged combat, they get a 25% increase in ranged attack speed if they jump up and down?

[Chai]

So 2 not very good options=Good?
Your AA will still be called a gimp(just becuase tempests become worse doesnt make ranged better) and now rangers will not be looked for anymore when groups need dps (even happens currently at times).

Stat damage/vorpaling is useless endgame, only point for it i would se would be weighted but thats nerfed to.

Sigh, im just rolling a cookie cutter fighter to replace my ranger.

You will roll a cookie cutter fighter to replace your cookie cutter ranger. The keebler cannith khopesh cookie cutter factory has already changed molds on the stamping press and are ready for new orders.

I prove this kind of absolutism regarding classes and builds wrong every day on my builds that arent 100% certified by the absolutists min maxer union.

People will try and scoff at archers, until they see a good one played, or until they need them due to going up against a mob that will smurf you so hard you will end up as a little blue stone on the floor if you try to melee it. Then the absolutists hope there are enough of us "gimps" around that can clean up the messes they made with rooms full of beholders and firey bats, after the melee ran the freight train of death they couldnt handle right up to the party's healer in hopes they would be saved.

My point here is: rangers arent the only ones that are taking a hit in this nerf. All melee is. Rangers still come out on top of the offhand proc game. Archers are closer than they used to be for damage in relation to melee. Its not a clear cut choice anymore, and thats why I like it.

[oweieie]

How about to fix ranged combat, they get a 25% increase in ranged attack speed if they jump up and down?

Heh. Seconded.

[Gobbothegreen]

You will roll a cookie cutter fighter to replace your cookie cutter ranger. The keebler cannith khopesh cookie cutter factory has already changed molds on the stamping press and are ready for new orders.

I prove this kind of absolutism regarding classes and builds wrong every day on my builds that arent 100% certified by the absolutists min maxer union.

People will try and scoff at archers, until they see a good one played, or until they need them due to going up against a mob that will smurf you so hard you will end up as a little blue stone on the floor if you try to melee it. Then the absolutists hope there are enough of us "gimps" around that can clean up the messes they made with rooms full of beholders and firey bats, after the melee ran the freight train of death they couldnt handle right up to the party's healer in hopes they would be saved.

My point here is: rangers arent the only ones that are taking a hit in this nerf. All melee is. Rangers still come out on top of the offhand proc game. Archers are closer than they used to be for damage in relation to melee. Its not a clear cut choice anymore, and thats why I like it.

Sigh, im sorry that i like doing builds that contribute to a party.

And i love playing my ranger (verohna if you want to see how "cookie cutter" she is) but i just feel like she wont be fun to play anymore now when rangers loose what make them special, huge amount of attacks.
Also i primaraly play healers and i would rather take a decent (doesnt have to be minmaxed) build that can actualy kill anything than some AA going pew pew and taking ages to kill those "easy" mobs, or even your precious dex based fighter so what if they are not unique.

Now if your on argo please look me up so i can see your awesome "unique" builds in action.

Now please if you want to continue this lets stop derailing this thread and do it in pms.

[Chai]

Sigh, im sorry that i like doing builds that contribute to a party.

It would be absolutism to imply that other builds other than the 5 or 6 accepted builds the forumites put their stamp on are not contributing.

And i love playing my ranger (verohna if you want to see how "cookie cutter" she is) but i just feel like she wont be fun to play anymore now when rangers loose what make them special, huge amount of attacks.
Also i primaraly play healers and i would rather take a decent (doesnt have to be minmaxed) build that can actualy kill anything than some AA going pew pew and taking ages to kill those "easy" mobs, or even your precious dex based fighter so what if they are not unique.

If rangers only were getting nerfed I would agree. However, rangers still win in the number of attacks game, because all melee is taking ahit in this department. While many others have been here on the forums complaining about it solely due to looking at calcs, I have been on the test server playing some toons, and I am not seeing a disparity from one class to another in attack speed that didnt already exist before the nerf.

Now if your on argo please look me up so i can see your awesome "unique" builds in action.

My builds are hardly unique, they just arent the cookie cutter cannith khopesh factory stamped out builds that the absolutist min maxers union fully endorses.

How about logging onto the test server to grind a few out yourself. You will see that rangers are still on top of the number of attacks game. Alot of us have been playing there for the past 3 days or so.

[Deathseeker]

When I plug in MonkeyArchers criteria, and compare TWF khopesh FB, Kensai, and tempests, that is what I am seeing.

TWF barbs are pretty far ahead, Tempest against FE are slightly ahead of kensai, but against non-FE . Give the fighter his haste boost and he pulls ahead for short bursts.

My #s vs 0% fort, (probably slightly different than Monkey's due to rounding/truncation differences, etc)

FB 418
Rogue (SA) 378
Tempest (FE) 347
Kensai 344
Tempest 274
Rogue (noSA) 231

If this is how it shakes out, I think the above doesn't look too bad. DPS is one factor of a build, not the entire build. Rangers, Rogues, Monks and Paladins have other abilities Barbs and Fighters do not and therefore should not have the same DPS (or at least their DPS should be more situational). Only issue I see with the above is Kensai is behind FB without much of an offsettting benefit (I guess the FB takes damage from Frenzy so I guess that's something).

Curious how a pally fits in here, but that gets a bit complicated with Smites and such. Same with a monk.

Bottom line for me is that after the rebalancing, there should be several builds that provide top dps depending on situation (ie sneak attack, FE, KotC vs EO, Haste Boost, vorpaling effectiveness, etc). If at certain moments in time many different builds can achieve top dps, but overall barbs and fighters have the best sustained dps, then I think we're looking good.

Oh, and it would also be nice if the dps lag actually went away

[Gobbothegreen]

It would be absolutism to imply that other builds other than the 5 or 6 accepted builds the forumites put their stamp on are not contributing.



If rangers only were getting nerfed I would agree. However, rangers still win in the number of attacks game, because all melee is taking ahit in this department. While many others have been here on the forums complaining about it solely due to looking at calcs, I have been on the test server playing some toons, and I am not seeing a disparity from one class to another in attack speed that didnt already exist before the nerf.



My builds are hardly unique, they just arent the cookie cutter cannith khopesh factory stamped out builds that the absolutist min maxers union fully endorses.

How about logging onto the test server to grind a few out yourself. You will see that rangers are still on top of the number of attacks game. Alot of us have been playing there for the past 3 days or so.

I have been on lamannia and rangers feel weaker relatively to other builds than they did before and its not like they where the biggest power builds before either. Doesnt matter if they "have more attacks" than other builds as its only by a small number now and they dont do as much damage and they dont have any things like haste boosts.

Please LOOK up my toons before saying that they are all "cookie cutter cannith kopesh factory" builds, my bard "mhaziea" is hardly min maxed and shes my favorite toon. Also here are some of those numbers you despise :

Here's a DPS chart on U5, with what we currently know about it (subject to change as/if turbine changes their plans)
Take note, that those with Mineral count DR as 0, samething for monkster, as he uses Metalline of Greater bane.

Look at that out of these builds rangers are now the LOWEST average dps from being much closer

[R0cksteady]

Wow. Fighters really got hit.

[Aaxeyu]

Look at that out of these builds rangers are now the LOWEST average dps from being much closer

Also note that it's a max DPS ranger, not the typical exploiter.

Rangers got hit very hard by the nerf.

[Cyr]

1. Because it's freaking dumb.
2. Because it's unfair and stupid that one kind of weapon style benefits from it and other don't.
3. Because it's embarrassing to play a game with such a pathetic bug where the developers can't even control something as fundamental as how fast players attack.
4. Because it's monstrously counterintuitive and hard to explain to new players.
5. Because exploiting shouldn't be rewarded.

1. Agreed, mostly because it's annoying to do and looks goofy.
2. True.
3. Agreed, but there are lots of pathetic bugs in DDO that don't reflect well on the devs.
4. meh, it's not that hard to explain.
5. I have to draw a line here. It's not exploiting. If it's been in the game for over a year and no dev has called it an exploit it's all fair game. I'm sure it was not meant to work this way, but tons of stuff in game was not meant to work how it works, but it's still not an exploit.