Cha vs. Wis: question(s)

[TheMeanDM]

Ok, I see some builds emphasizing Wisdom over Charisma.

I *thought* that you needed high Cha. to be able to cast all the FvS spells...and that Wisdom merely affected the saving throw of your offensive spells.

Anyways....thanks for clearing up these different directions for me.

[Sirea]

You'll still get the spells, but you won't be able to actually cast above level 6 spells with a 16 CHA. You need 10 + the level of the spell in your casting stat. So the minimum CHA you'd need to cast up to level 9 spells would be 19 (including items/tomes/etc.)

An offensive casting FvS, for example, would prefer WIS over CHA, giving themselves enough CHA to cast their spells and for a respectable amount of SP, but maxing WIS.

[TheMeanDM]

Thats what I thought too: 10 + spell level = total stat needed to cast the spell

[Shumanfoo]

Thats what I thought too: 10 + spell level = total stat needed to cast the spell

The reason Wis is important is that is the stat for spell DC checks. So for stats, it usually works out better for a casting FvS to max wis and have a little less Cha for maximum DC. It isn't hard to get up to 19 Cha for the ability to cast all your spells.

[Shru]

Thats what I thought too: 10 + spell level = total stat needed to cast the spell

Yes, but at cap you only need 19 charisma to cast all your spells, and by then you can easily have a +2 tome, +2 FvS capstone, +2 enhancements, and a +6 item, meaning you don't need invest at all in cha to cast max level spells under normal circumstances.

[Asketes]

Ok, I see some builds emphasizing Wisdom over Charisma.

I *thought* that you needed high Cha. to be able to cast all the FvS spells...and that Wisdom merely affected the saving throw of your offensive spells.

Anyways....thanks for clearing up these different directions for me.

for Favored Souls:

You need a Charisma of 19 to cast lvl 9 spells

EVERY 2 charisma points above 10 give you 19 Spell points

Thus, anything above a 20, really isn't benefiting you much at all, which is why a good majority of non-melee favored souls max their wisdom instead of Charisma. This allows them to still have plenty of SP (spell points) yet have their spells land.

ei: 10 base cha + 6 item + 2 tome + 1 favored soul enhancment = 19
12 base cha + 6 item + 1 favored soul enhancement = 19


I took mine to 20 just b/c i had the extra stat point and started at an 11 base cha

[donfilibuster]

For example, you can start cha at 14 or 16 base then max out wis including all the level increases.

[Shru]

For example, you can start cha at 14 or 16 base then max out wis including all the level increases.

A pure FvS doesn't really have any reason to go more than 10-12 starting charisma. If you're just maxing wisdom, the other points are much better invested into something like con, int for skills, or a little str.

[Asketes]

A pure FvS doesn't really have any reason to go more than 10-12 starting charisma. If you're just maxing wisdom, the other points are much better invested into something like con, int for skills, or a little str.

as long as you can hit a 19 cha at 18 lvls of FVS you're golden

[TheMeanDM]

Ah, ok...I get it now.

So you could do something like this (if building a Drow FvS) be a good starting build:

Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 15

Thinking Soverign Host route.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Ah, ok...I get it now.

So you could do something like this (if building a Drow FvS) be a good starting build:

Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 15

Thinking Soverign Host route.

If going pure, you can drop charisma to 13/14 & put the extra point in constitution for more HP - that'll still net you a total of 19/20 CHA at cap with a +2 tome (not too hard to get hold of) +2 from enhancements (potentially +3 but 6 AP could be better spent elsewhere) & +2 from the capstone, just use a +1 or +2 CHA item until you hit cap (cloaks of +1/+2 cha & +resistance are common & relatively cheap)

[Impaqt]

Ah, ok...I get it now.

So you could do something like this (if building a Drow FvS) be a good starting build:

Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 15
Cha: 15

Thinking Soverign Host route.

No, you dont.

Wisdom means so much more inthis game unless you dont plan on casting any offensive spells.

If uyou plan on casting offensive spells, you need to get your wisdom as high as possible. Starting -3 is a bad idea.

If PnP, that breakdown might be decent. In DDO, its not so hot.

"Average" stats mean next to nothing. High + items are common. Alternative + Stat stuff is in abundance.

THe obnly thing going over a 19 CHR does is provide you with a few more Spell Points. FvS already have a boatload. Its not that critical. Being down 1-2 DC on your spells can lead to major dissapointments.

Drow start witha 10CHR.

10
6 Common Items
3 Availaable via Enhancments
2 FvS Capstone Provides +2 More CHR
3 Greensteel weapon or ToD Ring
---
24 CHR

Thats PLENTY and we havent even eaten a tome yet.

[Carpone]

Yes, but at cap you only need 19 charisma to cast all your spells, and by then you can easily have a +2 tome, +2 FvS capstone, +2 enhancements, and a +6 item, meaning you don't need invest at all in cha to cast max level spells under normal circumstances.

If you're counting on reaching a 19 CHA with a +6 item and you're hit with Disjunction, you're no longer a capable healer.

14 CHA is a reasonable starting amount as a favored soul. +2 capstone means you can still cast Heal, MCLW and MCMW while Disjunctioned. Add tomes to further shore up your casting.

[Impaqt]

If you're counting on reaching a 19 CHA with a +6 item and you're hit with Disjunction, you're no longer a capable healer.

14 CHA is a reasonable starting amount as a favored soul. +2 capstone means you can still cast Heal, MCLW and MCMW while Disjunctioned. Add tomes to further shore up your casting.

Unless you carry an extra CHR item...

In realility, Disjunctuion is incredibly rare. and wasting build points because of it is a terreble idea.

You can always carry Eagles splendor pots as well...

10
2 Enhancments
2 Capstone
1 Tome
4 Eagles Splendor
---
19 CHR no item with a 10 Base.

[Carpone]

Oops, forgot about the CHA enhancements too. Yes, Disjunction is rare and you can carry extra items around to mitigate it. Personally I'm not a fan of micromanaging my equipment in the middle of a fight. I'd rather focus on keeping people alive or avoiding reflex spells.

[Shru]

Oops, forgot about the CHA enhancements too. Yes, Disjunction is rare and you can carry extra items around to mitigate it. Personally I'm not a fan of micromanaging my equipment in the middle of a fight. I'd rather focus on keeping people alive or avoiding reflex spells.

Honestly, having 16 cha w/o items (any combination of 10-12 base, 2 capstone, 1-2 tome, 1-3 enhancements) will get you through a disjunction quite easily. Having enough to cast lvl 9 spells is just fluff, but if you really feel the need, you don't have to sacrifice your over all build efficiency when, like Impaqt said, eagle splendor pots are so readily available for you.

[Ssmooth]

I laugh every time i see a FvS with max(or nearly max) Cha with ~20 Wis and 300hp. This means that not only can your build NOT cast offensive spells, but there is no melee or hp to back you up and you can ONLY heal.

This in the definition of a reroll IMO.

[jsaving]

It's unfortunate that the Compendium describes charisma as "the most important stat for favored souls."

CHA can be the most important stat for certain specialized builds that don't plan to do much sword-swinging or offensive casting. It can also be the most important stat for people who are really risk-averse and want to be absolutely sure they can cast mass heal while stat-damaged and/or affected by disjunction.

On the other hand, if you want to do much in the way of offensive casting, it's hard to see any stat taking priority over wisdom. If you want to dish out adequate weapon DPS for your party, it's hard to see skimping on physical stats for the sake of charisma. And if you want to do both, there may not be room for anything more than an 8-10 charisma even if you're somebody who would like (in an ideal world at least) to be disjunction-proof.

The bottom line is that dump-statting CHA is fine most of the time for a fair number of builds, but isn't appropriate for everyone. My advice is to think carefully about what you want to accomplish with your favored soul and whether you're willing to accept lower DCs and/or lower melee damage in exchange for the "safety net" of a high charisma. I see those sacrifices as being too great, personally, and decided to dump-stat CHA knowing I'll occasionally regret the decision. But your mileage may vary.

[dcp101]

The bottom line is, what does having high charisma buy you that makes having less of any other important stat worth it? I'm going to say whatever benefits people get from that will be trivial.