The 6 Ranger splash is dead!

[barbaricfoe693]

and if you know anything "Statisitic's" can be skewered with any way, shape or form of added placebo and variants. So, all that so called "Comparable DPS" has nothing to do with viability!!!! Because of the added Ranger(Plural) and Fighter(Singular) Levels I managed to gain TWF for Free and a toughness I wouldn't of had! Plus, a 1d8 hp for 6 levels and a 1d10 hp for 1 level for bonus hp. So, My Tempest Assassin at level 20 with everything from TOD upgraded and and GEE GS could possibly around 575 HP Vs a Pure Rogue maybe even splashed with 2 monk or fighter might graze 500. Maybe!!!!! Personally I just think if you compare all sides the Tempest Build ways-out greatly in the end!!! END THE END THE ISSUE IS THE SERVER LAG AND IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE WITH CHANGING BUILDS!!!! Until they decide to spend some money on people that actually know how to script and code the needed upgrades to the servers and implement the proper routines the lag will continue to exist and will not decrease at all. But, Gospel is my word I lead one the biggest guilds on khyber and I hear the scuttlebutt everyday about the changes and friends of mine have already been to Lamania and the lag hasn't changed at all. PEOPLE ARE NOT PlEASED AT ALL!!! If the changes go down like I see them I won't renew m account or spend another cent on the DDO Store!!!

[Aaxeyu]

6. Rangers are and will be under U5 the best vorpalers in the game. Same for stat-damagers.

Not any more. TWF fighters gets more attacks/minute with the changes.

[Thrudh]

When people say useless it's a hyperbole ofcourse.

Hyperbole is not useful... The one thing I cannot stand about the ubers on these boards is the inability to talk about trade-offs...

Is evasion worth losing 5% DPS, 10% DPS?, 40% DPS? The ubers never talk about it... Lose 5% DPS, and you're a total gimp in their eyes... Doesn't matter what you gain for it.

No one believes that rangers will be truly useless, only that they will be ALOT less useful than other classes.

Tempest I (assuming GTWF) goes from a 10% DPS boost to around a 4%-5% DPS boost... It is less... It is not a LOT less....

For example, why have a ranger to do DPS when you can have a fighter?

Because a ranger can do things a fighter can't? It's not all about DPS... That's a extremely limited way to look at things... If a ranger was doing 50% of the DPS of a fighter, sure... but gear means as much as build... The differences are small... You better start asking everyone what gear they have... Because a fighter with 2 more pieces of raid or epic loot may have 4% more DPS than a fighter without it... Do you really think that quest will fail if you bring the second fighter... At a certain point, the party has enough DPS to succeed... Bringing the absolute max is not necessary... Shaving off 15 seconds of a 20 minute run isn't really that important.

The nerf to tempest 1 meant a great deal in terms of DPS for many builds. Sure, it's not the only benefit of having 6 ranger levels, but now the other options look better than they did before.

It's good that the other options look better than they did before... But that doesn't mean ranger 6 is gimp or useless... i.e. "The 6 ranger splash is dead!"

It does not in any way infer that the haste was the only useful thing. That's just your fantasy of "absolutist" power gamers being stupid that's messing with you again.

I don't know... all you guys seem to care about is certain raid boss DPS...

[grodon9999]

Not any more. TWF fighters gets more attacks/minute with the changes.

At a base 105/105 per minute while hasted

Pallys and Fighters (zeal and capstone)

Main: 115
Off: 84
199 attack/minute

Tempest IIIs

Main: 110
Off: 105
215 attacks/minute.

I didn't count in haste-boosts though.

[Chai]

and if you know anything "Statisitic's" can be skewered with any way, shape or form of added placebo and variants. So, all that so called "Comparable DPS" has nothing to do with viability!!!! !!!

Tell that to the people who post DPS graphs and spreadsheets to prove their point, and then say rangers are now useless and there is no reason to roll one due to the way the numbers stack up alone. I dont base "viability" over one stat, but there are people who do.

What makes a build "viable" differs from person to person, so the comparable dps does matter to some people.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

It's fairly amusing to me that the largest purchasable heart of wood is +5. If I were a bit more skeptical, I'd say it were intentional to make the 6 level splashes buy two...if I were a bit more skeptical.

Man after they read this post I bet the entire Turbine Marketing team all busted up laughing and started "high 5 ing" each other.

[Aaxeyu]

I didn't count in haste-boosts though.

Why not? Not really a fair comparison without them.

[Thrudh]

Tell that to the people who post DPS graphs and spreadsheets to prove their point, and then say rangers are now useless and there is no reason to roll one due to the way the numbers stack up alone. I dont base "viability" over one stat, but there are people who do.

Exactly... how do you quantify evasion? Self-healing? AC? Saves? Tactics (CC)? Spells? Enhancements?

What makes a build "viable" differs from person to person, so the comparable dps does matter to some people.

I have a pure fighter, and a Monster... Heck, sometimes I think just the ranger sprint boost alone is worth losing a little DPS...

[QuantumFX]

Bring out yer dead.

[Redraider puts Visty on the cart]

Here’s one.

That’ll be 3,500 Turbine Points.

I’m not dead.

What?

Nothing. There’s your Turbine Points.

I’m not dead.

‘Ere, he says he’s not dead.

Yes he is.

I’m not.

He isn’t.

Well, he will be soon, he’s a niche build.

I’m getting better.

No you’re not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.

Well, I can’t take him like that. It’s not Update 5 yet.

I don’t want to go on the cart.

Oh, don’t be such a baby.

I can’t take him.

I feel fine.

Oh, do me a favor.

I can’t.

Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.

I promised I’d be at the Monk forums’. They've lost Harmonious Balance monks today.

Well, when’s your next round?

Middle of August.

I think I’ll go for a walk.

You’re not fooling anyone, you know. Isn’t there anything you could do?

I feel happy. I feel happy.

[LugnutEU glances up and down the street furtively, then silences the Body with his a whack of his club]

Ah, thank you very much.

Not at all. See you in August.

Right.

Completely inspired by Visty’s quote

[grodon9999]

Why not? Not really a fair comparison without them.

It's because I'm lazy You're more of a numbers guys, what's it work out to over say 5 minutes with the Fighter 30% boosts and the 18/1/1 15%? i'd wager you already have this computed.

[Rawel_San]

Awesome quantumFX. +1

[Aaxeyu]

It's because I'm lazy You're more of a numbers guys, what's it work out to over say 5 minutes with the Fighter 30% boosts and the 18/1/1 15%? i'd wager you already have this computed.

Over 5 minutes it's 1104,97 attacks for the ranger and 1168,77 attacks for the fighter.

Over 9 minutes however, the ranger comes out ahead.

[Aaxeyu]

Snip

lol, that's so funny.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Why not? Not really a fair comparison without them.

Depends, since the boosts are 20sec bursts you have to space a bit for cooldown. But, fair enough:


L20 fighter with capstone, 30% haste boost (building on above numbers, which i've checked ind.)

257 Attacks


L18 Ranger with at least 1 fighter level, 15% haste boost

247 attacks

Obviously, if you pick something other than fighter for your splash, say exploiter, you're not going to see the same numbers. But again, these are burst numbers, for up to 7 spaced intervals (assuming you put all those AP into the extra boosts) totalling a non-consecutive 2:20/rest. Slightly more attacks (and i'm not doing the damage/attack calc, since that's been done, just plug that in here) definitely, but if you pick ranger, there's a trade-off of max burst damage under ideal conditions (you're facing something where you don't need to switch away from your kensai weapon) vs. versatility. But that's a whole nother discussion that's sort of in the box, no need to rehash it.

Regardless, the gap has been closed a bit between anything ranger 12 and up vs. other TWF.

Exactly... how do you quantify evasion? Self-healing? AC? Saves? Tactics (CC)? Spells? Enhancements?



I have a pure fighter, and a Monster... Heck, sometimes I think just the ranger sprint boost alone is worth losing a little DPS...

Yeah, on my alts without Warp Time and ranger boost i feel like i'm crawling.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Tell that to the people who post DPS graphs and spreadsheets to prove their point, and then say rangers are now useless and there is no reason to roll one due to the way the numbers stack up alone.

I like how you imply that Aaxeyu thinks rangers are useless and has said that they're useless, when he infact posted that "no one thinks rangers are useless" just a page ago.

PS: I didn't think anyone would actually bother to read barbaricfoe693 wall of text.

And to the OP and everything said here in general:
I dare say I'm one of the more elitist gamers on these boards, and I'm really one for optimization and perfection in builds, and ranger 6 is far from useless. As seen in the thread on the fighter forums ranger 6 is still better for dps than barb 6, and than 20 fighter (in a 12/6/2 comparisson). And that's only counting DPS.

Only a fool would just count DPS. DPS is a very important stat, but there's a reason the Monster build has 2 monk levels instead of 2 rogue levels.

Tempest III really got way overnerfed though, IMO it should be 10% doublestrike, not 5%, as ranger levels above 6 are really lackluster if this goes through as planned.
That's the only thing I don't like with these changes, and glancings on thf-twitch ofcourse, but the rest of U5 combat changes are pure win in my eyes.

[grodon9999]

Only a fool would just count DPS. DPS is a very important stat, but there's a reason the Monster build has 2 monk levels instead of 2 rogue levels.

I know you know that, but newer players read the "DPS is all you need" matra that's perpetuated here. You should see some of the utter-mana-sponges i've had to heal lately

Tempest III really got way overnerfed though, IMO it should be 10% doublestrike, not 5%, as ranger levels above 6 are really lackluster if this goes through as planned.
That's the only thing I don't like with these changes, and glancings on thf-twitch ofcourse, but the rest of U5 combat changes are pure win in my eyes.

10% on both hands

I really hope these changes don't see the light of day.

[barbaricfoe693]

I like how you imply that Aaxeyu thinks rangers are useless and has said that they're useless, when he infact posted that "no one thinks rangers are useless" just a page ago.

PS: I didn't think anyone would actually bother to read barbaricfoe693 wall of text.

And to the OP and everything said here in general:
I dare say I'm one of the more elitist gamers on these boards, and I'm really one for optimization and perfection in builds, and ranger 6 is far from useless. As seen in the thread on the fighter forums ranger 6 is still better for dps than barb 6, and then 20 fighter (in a 12/6/2 comparisson). And that's only counting DPS.

Only a fool would just count DPS. DPS is a very important stat, but there's a reason the Monster build has 2 monk levels instead of 2 rogue levels.

Tempest III really got way overnerfed though, IMO it should be 10% doublestrike, not 5%, as ranger levels above 6 are really lackluster if this goes through as planned.
That's the only thing I don't like with these changes, and glancings on thf-twitch ofcourse, but the rest of U5 combat changes are pure win in my eyes.

ELitest? BWAHHHHHHHAHHHHHHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! You have got to be kidding!!!!!! I am Realm Renowned and I believe the Bolshevik's have returned to power you can go back to Europe BUDDY!!!!!

[Absolute-Omniscience]

ELitest? BWAHHHHHHHAHHHHHHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! You have got to be kidding!!!!!! I am Realm Renowned and I believe the Bolshevik's have returned to power you can go back to Europe BUDDY!!!!!

Wait, what?

Try English.

[Xyfiel]

A_O I was having issues trying to figure out the dps calculator. I trust it over my paper work also. Wondering what bribe I need to offer to get you to run thru:
Drow Monk12/tempest/rogue2 with shortswords
30 str, +2 from Drow, shintao set, with and without Favored damage, power attack, tharnes, 4d6+3 sneak, hasted, no seeker bonus
107.5% main hand/90% off hand
unarmed for 100% fort using touch of death if you have the unarmed attacks/minute

Or whatever your normal setup is so I have a basis to work from.

[SlayerInFlorida]

Fixed it, so people can read it (took some minor editorial liberty to clean up a bit of the grammar also):

And if you know anything about "Statisitic's", they can be skewered with any way, shape or form of added placebo and variants. All that so called "Comparable DPS" has nothing to do with viability!!!!

Because of the added Ranger(Plural) and Fighter(Singular) Levels I managed to gain TWF for free and a toughness I wouldn't of had! Plus, a 1d8 hp for 6 levels and a 1d10 hp for 1 level for bonus hp.

So, My Tempest Assassin at level 20 with everything from TOD upgraded and GEE GS could possibly get around 575 HP Vs a Pure Rogue maybe even splashed with 2 monk or fighter might graze 500. Maybe!!!!!

Personally I just think if you compare all sides the Tempest Build wins-out greatly in the end!!!

IN THE END THE ISSUE IS THE SERVER LAG AND IT ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE WITH CHANGING BUILDS!!!!

Until they decide to spend some money on people that actually know how to script and code the needed upgrades to the servers and implement the proper routines the lag will continue to exist and will not decrease at all.

But, Gospel is my word I lead one the biggest guilds on khyber and I hear the scuttlebutt everyday about the changes and friends of mine have already been to Lamania and the lag hasn't changed at all.

PEOPLE ARE NOT PLEASED AT ALL!!! If the changes go down like I see them I won't renew my account or spend another cent on the DDO Store!!!