The 6 Ranger splash is dead!

[Aerendil]

Fresh U5 calcs:

Pure rogue > Tempest rogue in DPS.

Now parse a 13 Rog (Assassin) / 6 Monk (Ninja) / 1 Fighter or Ranger (doesn't really matter) using shortswords with 5% double-attack rate

[LookingForABentoBox]

I don't think many will really disagree that Tempest I in it's original form was too much for a tier 1 Pre and to be honest pretty much every PRE since has been compared to it.

Other PrE's don't require one to take 3 garbage feats

[Chai]

Pure rogue > Tempest rogue in DPS.

Marginal.

If one of those players even sneezes, they get beat out by the other.

This is good though. I didnt like seeing rogues getting beat to the point where the pure class was not considered as viable for DPS purposes.

[ArichValtrahn]

Drastic changes without any reasonable way to respec character (only 5 levels at a time and no GS deconstruction, really?) completely erase this fun from the game.

This.

Maybe its because my previous MMO experience was Guild Wars (where you could totally respec your character whenever you were in town) but I find this to be a huge let down in DDO. I wanted to move my lv14 fighter from khopesh (too expensive) to heavy picks (for earthgrab gs soon) and have found the process to be completely ridiculous. It appears I have to swap 5 feats just to change my weapon focus. Completely ridiculous. Im sure it makes sense from a D&D stand point or a realism stand point, but its terrible from a gameplay perspective.

[Aerendil]

This.

Maybe its because my previous MMO experience was Guild Wars (where you could totally respec your character whenever you were in town) but I find this to be a huge let down in DDO. I wanted to move my lv14 fighter from khopesh (too expensive) to heavy picks (for earthgrab gs soon) and have found the process to be completely ridiculous. It appears I have to swap 5 feats just to change my weapon focus. Completely ridiculous. Im sure it makes sense from a D&D stand point or a realism stand point, but its terrible from a gameplay perspective.

Best option for multiple-feat swaps is actually lesser reincarnation which you can do at any level.

Sadly, it costs $$$ in the DDO Store :/
But just thought I'd throw that out there for you. If you have the points or don't mind spending $10 or so to fix your character, it's an option.

[Aaxeyu]

Marginal.

If one of those players even sneezes, they get beat out by the other.

Not really. Remember that the tempest rogue got full FE damage in every scenario in that calc.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Pure rogue > Tempest rogue in DPS.

If I'm reading your data right, that's true for zero fort mobs only and reverses for high fort mobs.

[karl_k0ch]

Fresh U5 calcs:

Pure rogue

582,51		Damage Per Second Scenario 1
357,32		Damage Per Second Scenario 2
172,08		Damage Per Second Scenario 3
370,63		Average Damage Per Second

Tempest Rogue:

(snip)
0	0	Favored enemy
6	6	Ram's might 
2	2	Divine favor
(snap)

545,71		Damage Per Second Scenario 1
355,18		Damage Per Second Scenario 2
206,16		Damage Per Second Scenario 3
369,01		Average Damage Per Second

Pure rogue > Tempest rogue in DPS.

Thank you for making these calculations open to the public. (+1 for this.)
So, depending on the level of fortification, both variants will have certain advantages and disadvantages, the pure rogue having a slight overall advantage.

And if I lose some dmg against some squishies, that's perfectly fine for me if I gain some versatility as a trade-off.

There is one thing which I didn't understand in the tempest part of the calculations. Why is there no additional damage against favored enemies, but some Divine Favor? Why does Ram's Might grant 6 extra damage?

Is the attack value part of the calculations or do we just assume that every attack hits?

[Aaxeyu]

Thank you for making these calculations open to the public. (+1 for this.)
So, depending on the level of fortification, both variants will have certain advantages and disadvantages, the pure rogue having a slight overall advantage.

And if I lose some dmg against some squishies, that's perfectly fine for me if I gain some versatility as a trade-off.

There is one thing which I didn't understand in the tempest part of the calculations. Why is there no additional damage against favored enemies, but some Divine Favor? Why does Ram's Might grant 6 extra damage?

Is the attack value part of the calculations or do we just assume that every attack hits?

You're welcome. Expect to see the calc up for download within a few days.


lol, my bad. I added thedamage on the wrong lines. It's supposed to be 6 favoured enemy damage and 2 rams might damage. it doesn't affect the results however.

[karl_k0ch]

I'm not trying to nit-pick, but shouldn't it be 3 damage from Ram's might since the increase of Str (+2 Str) adds another +1 Damage?

If you are in the mood, I'd be interested how much damage a Tempest Rog does against a non-favored enemy.

Any chance one could see the Calc as a Java-based or even Web-based application?

Gimped? I'll call it leveled. And if a thf barb/pal/kensai gets similar dps, I'd be really happy about the nerf.

[DelverRootnose]

i'd say weighted 5% was flavor of the month. that, according to you, rogues, paladins, battle-clerics, fvs and warchanters used them as primary weapons enforces my point.

....they doing to 5% weighted dare I ask. If they muck with that to much my monk will be ****ed.

[Aerendil]

....they doing to 5% weighted dare I ask. If they muck with that to much my monk will be ****ed.

It looks as though all weighteds have been changed to 3%, with the target having to fail a saving throw to be stunned (which brings them in line with all other weapons with special effects, such as smiters, banishers, paralyzers, etc.).
The previous % on them looks to translate towards to the DC bonus for stunning fist/blow, so 5%s = +10 to DC.

[grodon9999]

Fresh U5 calcs:

Pure rogue

Rog 20, Min Khop	Halfling	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
Khopesh	Khopesh	Weapon Type (Green steel)
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
0	0	Extra Critical Multiplier
1	1	<Element> Burst Effects
1	1	<Element> Blast Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Burst Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Blast Effects
		
		Weapon Adjustments
0	0	Weapon base damage adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical threat range adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical multiplier adjustment
		
		Scenarios
		Scenario 1
0	0	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 2
50	50	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
20	20	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 3
100	100	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
30	30	Elemental resistance
		
		Prestige Enhancements
0	0	Kensai Rank
0	0	Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Rank
3	3	Assassin Rank
0	0	Tempest Rank
		
		Base Damage
5,5	5,5	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
38	38	Strength
14	7	Total strength damage
5	5	Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
0	0	Litany
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
0	0	Racial damage enhancement
0	0	Fighter damage enhancements
0	0	Kensai Damage
0	0	Weapon specialization
0	0	Monk True Reincarnation
0	0	Favored enemy
0	0	Ram's might 
0	0	Divine favor
0	0	Divine might
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
43,5	36,5	Total Base
		    
		Sneak attack
Yes	Yes	Rogue Capstone
20	20	Rogue levels
12	12	SA enhancements
0	0	
8	8	Item
8	8	Halfling
0	0	Rogue True Reincarnation
10,5	10,5	Assassin bonus
87,5	87,5	Total
		
		Effects
7	7	<Alignment>
3,5	3,5	<Element>
0	0	Tempest set
0	0	Henshin monk set
87,5	87,5	Sneak attack
0	0	Frenzied Berserker vicious
0	0	Knight of the Chalice EO damage
0	0	Paladin Capstone
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
1	1	Force ritual
101,5	101,5	Effects Total Scenario 1
54,25	54,25	Effects Total Scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects Total Scenario 3
145	138	Total Base With Effects Scenario 1
97,75	90,75	Total Base With Effects Scenario 2
54	47	Total Base With Effects Scenario 3
		
		Glancing Blows
Yes		Barbarian Capstone
3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
0		Kensai Rank
0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 1
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 2
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 3
0	0	Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
0	0	Effects scenario 1
0	0	Effects scenario 2
0	0	Effects scenario 3
1		Number of targets hit by glancings
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 1
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 2
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 3
		
		Critical Hits
8	8	Seeker from item
4	4	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
130,5	109,5	Base critical damage scenario 1
87	73	Base critical damage scenario 2
43,5	36,5	Base critical damage scenario 3
101,5	101,5	Effects scenario 1
54,25	54,25	Effects scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Burst scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Blast scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 3
0	0	<Alignment> Burst
0	0	<Alignment> Blast
14	14	Natural 20 scenario 1
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 2
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 3
24	24	Total seeker damage scenario 1
12	12	Total seeker damage scenario 2
0	0	Total seeker damage scenario 3
292	271	Critical Total Scenario 1
153,25	139,25	Critical Total Scenario 2
54	47	Critical Total Scenario 3
167,85	158,4	Average Damage Scenario 1
103,96	95,91	Average Damage Scenario 2
51,3	44,65	Average Damage Scenario 3
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
Yes	Yes	Madstone
20	20	Base Attack Bonus
5	5	BAB Tier
0,62	0,62	Unarmed Duration
0,56	0,56	THF-Twitch Duration
0,67	0,67	Armed Duration
		Attack speed increases
7	7	Number of haste boosts
30	30	Haste boost amount
0	0	Competence (Acrobat)
0	0	Insight
0	0	Sacred
0,81	0,76	Duration Modifier, Unboosted
0,57	0,53	Duration Modifier, Boosted
0,67	0,67	Base Duration
1,19	1,24	Unboosted Rate Increase
1,55	1,62	Boosted Rate Increase
0,125	0,125	Offset
		Double strikes
0	0	Competence (Fighter Capstone)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Sacred (Zeal)
0	0	Chance to double strike
		Offhand proc
0	0	Competence (Tempest 1 / 2)
80	80	Chance to proc Offhand
		Smites
0	0	Extra Smite Rank
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
		
		Activations & Feats
No	No	Frenzy activation
No	No	Death Frenzy activation
No	No	Power Surge activation
No	No	Divine Might activation
GTWF	GTWF	TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
None	None	THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
Yes	Yes	Quick draw
		
0	0	Loss per minute due to activations
		
		Attackspeed
7		Number of haste boosts used
88,98		Normal
105,53		Haste/ Other
137,78		Haste/ Other/ Boost
593,24	474,6	Total Amount of Attacks
99576,03	 75175,9	Total Damage Scenario 1
61675	45519     Total Damage Scenario 2
30433	21190     Total Damage Scenario 3
331,92	250,59	Damage/S Scenario 1
205,58	151,73	Damage/S Scenario 2
101,44	70,64	Damage/S Scenario 3
582,51		Damage Per Second Scenario 1
357,32		Damage Per Second Scenario 2
172,08		Damage Per Second Scenario 3
370,63		Average Damage Per Second

Tempest Rogue:

Rog 20, Min Khop	Halfling	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
Khopesh	Khopesh	Weapon Type (Green steel)
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
0	0	Extra Critical Multiplier
1	1	<Element> Burst Effects
1	1	<Element> Blast Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Burst Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Blast Effects
		
		Weapon Adjustments
0	0	Weapon base damage adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical threat range adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical multiplier adjustment
		
		Scenarios
		Scenario 1
0	0	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 2
50	50	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
20	20	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 3
100	100	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
30	30	Elemental resistance
		
		Prestige Enhancements
0	0	Kensai Rank
0	0	Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Rank
2	2	Assassin Rank
1	1	Tempest Rank
		
		Base Damage
5,5	5,5	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
38	38	Strength
14	7	Total strength damage
5	5	Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
0	0	Litany
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
0	0	Racial damage enhancement
0	0	Fighter damage enhancements
0	0	Kensai Damage
0	0	Weapon specialization
0	0	Monk True Reincarnation
0	0	Favored enemy
6	6	Ram's might 
2	2	Divine favor
0	0	Divine might
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
51,5	44,5	Total Base
		    
		Sneak attack
No	No	Rogue Capstone
13	13	Rogue levels
12	12	SA enhancements
0	0	0
8	8	Item
8	8	Halfling
0	0	Rogue True Reincarnation
7	7	Assassin bonus
59,5	59,5	Total
		
		Effects
7	7	<Alignment>
3,5	3,5	<Element>
0	0	Tempest set
0	0	Henshin monk set
59,5	59,5	Sneak attack
0	0	Frenzied Berserker vicious
0	0	Knight of the Chalice EO damage
0	0	Paladin Capstone
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
1	1	Force ritual
73,5	73,5	Effects Total Scenario 1
40,25	40,25	Effects Total Scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects Total Scenario 3
125	118	Total Base With Effects Scenario 1
91,75	84,75	Total Base With Effects Scenario 2
62	55	Total Base With Effects Scenario 3
		
		Glancing Blows
Yes		Barbarian Capstone
3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
0		Kensai Rank
0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 1
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 2
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 3
0	0	Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
0	0	Effects scenario 1
0	0	Effects scenario 2
0	0	Effects scenario 3
1		Number of targets hit by glancings
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 1
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 2
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 3
		
		Critical Hits
8	8	Seeker from item
4	4	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
154,5	133,5	Base critical damage scenario 1
103	89	Base critical damage scenario 2
51,5	44,5	Base critical damage scenario 3
73,5	73,5	Effects scenario 1
40,25	40,25	Effects scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Burst scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Blast scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 3
0	0	<Alignment> Burst
0	0	<Alignment> Blast
14	14	Natural 20 scenario 1
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 2
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 3
24	24	Total seeker damage scenario 1
12	12	Total seeker damage scenario 2
0	0	Total seeker damage scenario 3
288	267	Critical Total Scenario 1
155,25	141,25	Critical Total Scenario 2
62	55	Critical Total Scenario 3
152,05	142,6	Average Damage Scenario 1
99,86	91,81	Average Damage Scenario 2
58,9	52,25	Average Damage Scenario 3
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
Yes	Yes	Madstone
20	20	Base Attack Bonus
5	5	BAB Tier
0,62	0,62	Unarmed Duration
0,56	0,56	THF-Twitch Duration
0,67	0,67	Armed Duration
		Attack speed increases
6	6	Number of haste boosts
30	30	Haste boost amount
0	0	Competence (Acrobat)
0	0	Insight
0	0	Sacred
0,81	0,76	Duration Modifier, Unboosted
0,57	0,53	Duration Modifier, Boosted
0,67	0,67	Base Duration
1,19	1,24	Unboosted Rate Increase
1,55	1,62	Boosted Rate Increase
0,125	0,125	Offset
		Double strikes
0	0	Competence (Fighter Capstone)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Sacred (Zeal)
0	0	Chance to double strike
		Offhand proc
10	10	Competence (Tempest 1 / 2)
90	90	Chance to proc Offhand
		Smites
0	0	Extra Smite Rank
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
		
		Activations & Feats
No	No	Frenzy activation
No	No	Death Frenzy activation
No	No	Power Surge activation
No	No	Divine Might activation
GTWF	GTWF	TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
None	None	THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
Yes	Yes	Quick draw
		
0	0	Loss per minute due to activations
		
		Attackspeed
6		Number of haste boosts used
88,98		Normal
105,53		Haste/ Other
137,78		Haste/ Other/ Boost
583,87	525,49	Total Amount of Attacks
88777,95	74934,32	Total Damage Scenario 1
58307,06	48246,19	Total Damage Scenario 2
34390,14	27456,65	Total Damage Scenario 3
295,93	249,78	Damage/S Scenario 1
194,36	160,82	Damage/S Scenario 2
114,63	91,52	Damage/S Scenario 3
545,71		Damage Per Second Scenario 1
355,18		Damage Per Second Scenario 2
206,16		Damage Per Second Scenario 3
369,01		Average Damage Per Second

Pure rogue > Tempest rogue in DPS.

By 1 point of damage? That's hardy gimped.

[Aaxeyu]

By 1 point of damage?

That depends on how you interpet the "average damage per second" line. It's not accurate from a gameplay point of view, as the 3 scenarios are not exactly of equal frequency or importance in game. They are in the calc however.

[DelverRootnose]

It looks as though all weighteds have been changed to 3%, with the target having to fail a saving throw to be stunned (which brings them in line with all other weapons with special effects, such as smiters, banishers, paralyzers, etc.).
The previous % on them looks to translate towards to the DC bonus for stunning fist/blow, so 5%s = +10 to DC.

..really bites. If my real life wasn't a wastland of boredom I would have quite this game long ago. I mean how many times can you run the same quest before it gets old.

[Aaxeyu]

I'm not trying to nit-pick, but shouldn't it be 3 damage from Ram's might since the increase of Str (+2 Str) adds another +1 Damage?

If you are in the mood, I'd be interested how much damage a Tempest Rog does against a non-favored enemy.

Any chance one could see the Calc as a Java-based or even Web-based application?

Gimped? I'll call it leveled. And if a thf barb/pal/kensai gets similar dps, I'd be really happy about the nerf.

You are correct about the strength, I forgot to add it -.-

[sigtrent]

Not dead I think.

You get 5 good feats and a good buffing spell in 6 levels which is quite good, not to mention the favored enemy and up to +2 dex via enhancements and solid saves etc... Its still a lot of gain for 6 levels. Ranger 6 was common long before Tempest showed up.

What is more in danger of falling out of style is Tempest 1, which lost half its DPS advantage. Still, it only lost half, and it still has its AC bonus. Spring attack is a decent feat, as is dodge so some will stick with Tempest 1 and they will still be getting a benefit. However if there are other good feats to pick up, then they may drop Tempest for those other feats.

Fighters may find better uses for those levels, but most other classes are less likely to because they were making good use of the free feats. If you only had it for TWF, and you didn't care about AC, then it may be better to drop it. That's many buts however.

[Sinni]

don't forget proficiency with healing wands (and others)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

don't forget proficiency with healing wands (and others)

Rogues have all that through UMD pretty quickly.

[Chai]

Not really. Remember that the tempest rogue got full FE damage in every scenario in that calc.

And its still very close. Rogue DPS is purely situational depending on SA, as is ranger depending on FE. As I have stated, this is a heck of alot more of a debate now than it was with rangers getting 10% haste and hook attacks, which were alot less situational.

If ranger chooses undead as one of their FE, and they would be foolish not to, they completely own rogues in the DPS department. There is enough undead in this game that you could practically level off of them alone. As far as end game content, there is currently Rayium, and I am sure epic orchard quests including abbot are in the works, as this seems to be the pattern.

This goes for anything with 100% fort, which are major issues for rogues.