The 6 Ranger splash is dead!

[Phidius]

idk phi, the 6 fighter for the feats and +2 str instead of 6 ranger for the feats and speed is looking good, too early to tell i guess. i dont think eitehr build will be hurt too much, considering that both will still b using dp clickies to attain full bab anyway. mines a ranger spalsh atm, and im not real keen on changing anything to suit friggin turbine

Ah, but ranger gives me so much more of what I love... skill points for sneaking (including APs freed up from Tempest1), Ram's Might (+2 Str, +2 damage), Manyshot (you know you want it), etc...

And of course, being able to cast a +20 jump spell from spell points rather than that belt is awfully nice.

Gemstone will probably take Arcane Archer, but not Stryde.

[Phidius]

If you play the game with the build you enjoy rather than what the forums say is the only perfect build, you have a lot less changing to finagle when they nerf the flavor of the month.

Yeap its called building on concept rather than on available weapons and current content. Building on things you have control over, like concept, will rarely make you mad when a change occurs, where building on factors you cant control, like gear and content, will make you need to change alot to be at the same level of effectiveness.

I know I was late to the Tempest bandwagon, but do you really consider it the "Flavor of the Month"?

The only concept I can think of that would be immune to nerfs is the 10Wiz/10Sorc dwarf build... and knowing Turbine I'm not even sure of that.

Help me out here - what concept build doesn't depend on game mechanics that are under Turbine's control?

[LordPiglet]

True, but its more of a debate now, with the haste gone. Full 20 pally looks more attractive as a damage dealer than it once did -vs- a 6 ranger 14 pally.

full 20 paly would give you the capstone

14 paly would give you zeal (10% double strike) and Temptest I (10% additional offhand chance).

[Xithos]

full 20 paly would give you the capstone

14 paly would give you zeal (10% double strike) and Temptest I (10% additional offhand chance).

Full 20 Paladin will also give you the "Weapon of Good" effect that will let your Epic Sword of Shadows beat the good component of DR while you use the slot on it to grab Silver for devil annihiliation or Cold-Iron for Marilith devastation

[LupusVai]

That is all.

Humm yeah, rams might is just awfull who would want that. 10% extra off hand proc rate awfull truely awfull. +2 AC awfull. Many shot total rubish who would want that when you can have throwing darts?? Tempest I was always OTT and granted its not as OTT as it was but its still very worth while.

[karl_k0ch]

Well, i still like my 13/6/1 rogue for its utility. It has been nerfed, but Leesas will be still playable. Ranger 6 still has its benefits and even tempest 1 has.

[Elixxer]

14 Pal/6 Rng is still sexy. Zeal and Tempest.

Tempest is dead. no more 10% speed from it. although I agree with the post above, many shot rams might and all are good just don't pick up tempest, but still swap these with fighter lvls could be better.

[Auran82]

I don't think many will really disagree that Tempest I in it's original form was too much for a tier 1 Pre and to be honest pretty much every PRE since has been compared to it.

Thinking back though, when Tempest was released, I honestly think that some people internally must have been thinking that DDO was starting to head downhill toward an end so in many ways balance was out the door, hence MOD6 having things like Tempest I and greensteel crafting.

In it's new form though, one thing I do like is that whether to take Tempest or not is actually a choice, when it was 10% to TWF speed if you took 6 levels of ranger, you really never considered not taking tempest I at the same time.

[Sinni]

Warchanters were never flavor of the month for the lack of personal strength and yet they nerfed both their attack speed, primary weapons (weighted 5%) and almost introduced STWF to hose them even further. Rogues, paladins, battle-clerics, FvS are in the same boat. They have to cough 4 large scales out of thin air or make significant sacrifices to fit Stunning Blow into their build only to be able to perform as they did prior to nerfdate.

i'd say weighted 5% was flavor of the month. that, according to you, rogues, paladins, battle-clerics, fvs and warchanters used them as primary weapons enforces my point.

[Sinni]

bah, pressing F5 resulted in a double post 15 mins later... if someone is able to delete this posting and sees it, please do so.

[Razcar]

its not dead

Ranger 6 is not dead, but it is sure as hell smelling funny.

The point of a Tempest splash was permanent 10% attack speed. Ram's Might, Manyshot, Jump, two F.E's were just gravy, some nice extras.

Taking away 10% attack speed is taking away the point of Tempest I, which is now not worth the feat it costs (Dodge and Mobility is a wash for TWF and ITWF). And that just about kills ranger 6 splashes for anyone except some esoteric ranged multi-classes, or people who already have it and doesn't care to change it.

[Visty]

Ranger 6 is not dead, but it is sure as hell smelling funny.

The point of a Tempest splash was permanent 10% attack speed. Ram's Might, Manyshot, Jump, two F.E's were just gravy, some nice extras.

Taking away 10% attack speed is taking away the point of Tempest I, which is now not worth the feat it costs (Dodge and Mobility is a wash for TWF and ITWF). And that just about kills ranger 6 splashes for anyone except some esoteric ranged multi-classes, or people who already have it and doesn't care to change it.

actually it kills it only for the fighters as they would be better off going pure for the capstone
the pal14/ranger6 and almsot all other ranger splashs still benefit from it

[Aaxeyu]

actually it kills it only for the fighters as they would be better off going pure for the capstone
the pal14/ranger6 and almsot all other ranger splashs still benefit from it

You are wrong. Tempest rogues are now behind pure rogues in DPS, even against favoured enemies.
Pal 14 ranger 6 was behind pure paladins even before the nerf, now I recon that they are pretty bad.

Best DPS in U5 is Rogue, followed by pure THF fighter.

[Pyromaniac]

The only concept I can think of that would be immune to nerfs is the 10Wiz/10Sorc dwarf build... and knowing Turbine I'm not even sure of that.

You know now that you mentioned it they're going after the wiz/sorc 'concept' class next

[Razcar]

You know now that you mentioned it they're going after the wiz/sorc 'concept' class next

Nooooooooo

[karl_k0ch]

You are wrong. Tempest rogues are now behind pure rogues in DPS, even against favoured enemies.

I don't see this immediately especially when the favored enemy is sneak-attack immune, (i.e. Undead).

Against favored enemies, 6 Levels of Ranger grant +4 Damage, which can be further increased to +6 with enhancements. Additionally, Ram's Might will grant +2 Str and + 2 Damage, which results in a total damge of +9 Damage for favored enemies. The Sneak Attack Dice equivalent of this is roughly 2.5 which is a little bit less than the SA dice you'll get for 6 levels of rogue. But then again, SA won't work against undead and SA won't be applied to critical hits, even if the monsters are not immune to crits/SA.

So if there are solid calculations regarding the dps for pure Rog vs. Tempest Rog, I would be very interested in the results. (Yes, I know that there is the Assasin III PrE lurking in the Deadly Shadow to grant another 5D6 additional sneak attack damage.)

[Chai]

So you (and the OP) are congradulating the devs on achieving better balance so a L6 enhancement in a class didn't give the same bonus as L20 capstone and thus leading to more diversity in builds?

There are some nerfs I agree with and some that dont. I dont agree there will be less diversity in builds. We just havent figured out all of what that diversity is yet. Once the min maxers have mixed nd matched all the combinations, you will see the new flavors of the month, and also see that there are as many build combinations left as there was before.

I believe the way it was with the 6 ranger giving 10% haste was actually making it so people were not considering other options. I think the new system puts alot more options for build choices in the game. I think that people are making the statement that it does not have as many options, due to not knowing what those options are yet, and are content to sit in their comfort zone with no change instead.

[Aerendil]

I keep seeing the 14/6 Paladin/Ranger split brought up.
Seriously, you'd give up capstone, tier III PrE, and all the other enhancements that come from level 15-20 of Paladin for Ram's Might, 2 FE's, Jump, and +10% offhand?

Seems silly to me.
Personally I think pure Paladin or 18/2 split is where it's at now.
Or, if you want to be a bit crazy, go 18/2 longswords with WSS. 7.5% self-hasted, and 12.5% double-strike rate (wind stance + zeal). Yumm.

[Aaxeyu]

I don't see this immediately especially when the favored enemy is sneak-attack immune, (i.e. Undead).

Against favored enemies, 6 Levels of Ranger grant +4 Damage, which can be further increased to +6 with enhancements. Additionally, Ram's Might will grant +2 Str and + 2 Damage, which results in a total damge of +9 Damage for favored enemies. The Sneak Attack Dice equivalent of this is roughly 2.5 which is a little bit less than the SA dice you'll get for 6 levels of rogue. But then again, SA won't work against undead and SA won't be applied to critical hits, even if the monsters are not immune to crits/SA.

So if there are solid calculations regarding the dps for pure Rog vs. Tempest Rog, I would be very interested in the results. (Yes, I know that there is the Assasin III PrE lurking in the Deadly Shadow to grant another 5D6 additional sneak attack damage.)

Fresh U5 calcs:

Pure rogue

Rog 20, Min Khop	Halfling	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
Khopesh	Khopesh	Weapon Type (Green steel)
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
0	0	Extra Critical Multiplier
1	1	<Element> Burst Effects
1	1	<Element> Blast Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Burst Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Blast Effects
		
		Weapon Adjustments
0	0	Weapon base damage adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical threat range adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical multiplier adjustment
		
		Scenarios
		Scenario 1
0	0	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 2
50	50	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
20	20	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 3
100	100	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
30	30	Elemental resistance
		
		Prestige Enhancements
0	0	Kensai Rank
0	0	Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Rank
3	3	Assassin Rank
0	0	Tempest Rank
		
		Base Damage
5,5	5,5	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
38	38	Strength
14	7	Total strength damage
5	5	Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
0	0	Litany
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
0	0	Racial damage enhancement
0	0	Fighter damage enhancements
0	0	Kensai Damage
0	0	Weapon specialization
0	0	Monk True Reincarnation
0	0	Favored enemy
0	0	Ram's might 
0	0	Divine favor
0	0	Divine might
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
43,5	36,5	Total Base
		    
		Sneak attack
Yes	Yes	Rogue Capstone
20	20	Rogue levels
12	12	SA enhancements
0	0	
8	8	Item
8	8	Halfling
0	0	Rogue True Reincarnation
10,5	10,5	Assassin bonus
87,5	87,5	Total
		
		Effects
7	7	<Alignment>
3,5	3,5	<Element>
0	0	Tempest set
0	0	Henshin monk set
87,5	87,5	Sneak attack
0	0	Frenzied Berserker vicious
0	0	Knight of the Chalice EO damage
0	0	Paladin Capstone
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
1	1	Force ritual
101,5	101,5	Effects Total Scenario 1
54,25	54,25	Effects Total Scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects Total Scenario 3
145	138	Total Base With Effects Scenario 1
97,75	90,75	Total Base With Effects Scenario 2
54	47	Total Base With Effects Scenario 3
		
		Glancing Blows
Yes		Barbarian Capstone
3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
0		Kensai Rank
0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 1
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 2
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 3
0	0	Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
0	0	Effects scenario 1
0	0	Effects scenario 2
0	0	Effects scenario 3
1		Number of targets hit by glancings
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 1
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 2
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 3
		
		Critical Hits
8	8	Seeker from item
4	4	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
130,5	109,5	Base critical damage scenario 1
87	73	Base critical damage scenario 2
43,5	36,5	Base critical damage scenario 3
101,5	101,5	Effects scenario 1
54,25	54,25	Effects scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Burst scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Blast scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 3
0	0	<Alignment> Burst
0	0	<Alignment> Blast
14	14	Natural 20 scenario 1
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 2
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 3
24	24	Total seeker damage scenario 1
12	12	Total seeker damage scenario 2
0	0	Total seeker damage scenario 3
292	271	Critical Total Scenario 1
153,25	139,25	Critical Total Scenario 2
54	47	Critical Total Scenario 3
167,85	158,4	Average Damage Scenario 1
103,96	95,91	Average Damage Scenario 2
51,3	44,65	Average Damage Scenario 3
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
Yes	Yes	Madstone
20	20	Base Attack Bonus
5	5	BAB Tier
0,62	0,62	Unarmed Duration
0,56	0,56	THF-Twitch Duration
0,67	0,67	Armed Duration
		Attack speed increases
7	7	Number of haste boosts
30	30	Haste boost amount
0	0	Competence (Acrobat)
0	0	Insight
0	0	Sacred
0,81	0,76	Duration Modifier, Unboosted
0,57	0,53	Duration Modifier, Boosted
0,67	0,67	Base Duration
1,19	1,24	Unboosted Rate Increase
1,55	1,62	Boosted Rate Increase
0,125	0,125	Offset
		Double strikes
0	0	Competence (Fighter Capstone)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Sacred (Zeal)
0	0	Chance to double strike
		Offhand proc
0	0	Competence (Tempest 1 / 2)
80	80	Chance to proc Offhand
		Smites
0	0	Extra Smite Rank
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
		
		Activations & Feats
No	No	Frenzy activation
No	No	Death Frenzy activation
No	No	Power Surge activation
No	No	Divine Might activation
GTWF	GTWF	TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
None	None	THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
Yes	Yes	Quick draw
		
0	0	Loss per minute due to activations
		
		Attackspeed
7		Number of haste boosts used
88,98		Normal
105,53		Haste/ Other
137,78		Haste/ Other/ Boost
593,24	474,6	Total Amount of Attacks
99576,03	 75175,9	Total Damage Scenario 1
61675	45519     Total Damage Scenario 2
30433	21190     Total Damage Scenario 3
331,92	250,59	Damage/S Scenario 1
205,58	151,73	Damage/S Scenario 2
101,44	70,64	Damage/S Scenario 3
582,51		Damage Per Second Scenario 1
357,32		Damage Per Second Scenario 2
172,08		Damage Per Second Scenario 3
370,63		Average Damage Per Second

Tempest Rogue:

Rog 20, Min Khop	Halfling	Build
TWF	TWF	Fighting Style
		Weapon
Khopesh	Khopesh	Weapon Type (Green steel)
0	0	Extra Critical Threat Range
0	0	Extra Critical Multiplier
1	1	<Element> Burst Effects
1	1	<Element> Blast Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Burst Effects
0	0	<Alignment> Blast Effects
		
		Weapon Adjustments
0	0	Weapon base damage adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical threat range adjustment
0	0	Weapon critical multiplier adjustment
		
		Scenarios
		Scenario 1
0	0	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
0	0	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 2
50	50	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
20	20	Elemental resistance
		Scenario 3
100	100	Fortification
0	0	Damage reduction
30	30	Elemental resistance
		
		Prestige Enhancements
0	0	Kensai Rank
0	0	Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Rank
2	2	Assassin Rank
1	1	Tempest Rank
		
		Base Damage
5,5	5,5	Weapon base damage
5	5	Weapon modifier
38	38	Strength
14	7	Total strength damage
5	5	Power attack (Double bonus for THF)
0	0	Litany
2	2	Frenzied berserker set
2	2	Shintao monk set
0	0	Racial damage enhancement
0	0	Fighter damage enhancements
0	0	Kensai Damage
0	0	Weapon specialization
0	0	Monk True Reincarnation
0	0	Favored enemy
6	6	Ram's might 
2	2	Divine favor
0	0	Divine might
9	9	Song
1	1	Prayer
No	No	Bladesworn
51,5	44,5	Total Base
		    
		Sneak attack
No	No	Rogue Capstone
13	13	Rogue levels
12	12	SA enhancements
0	0	0
8	8	Item
8	8	Halfling
0	0	Rogue True Reincarnation
7	7	Assassin bonus
59,5	59,5	Total
		
		Effects
7	7	<Alignment>
3,5	3,5	<Element>
0	0	Tempest set
0	0	Henshin monk set
59,5	59,5	Sneak attack
0	0	Frenzied Berserker vicious
0	0	Knight of the Chalice EO damage
0	0	Paladin Capstone
0	0	Knight of the Chalice Set bonus
2,5	2,5	Slicing
0	0	Other effects (Bane, L-strike average, etc.)
1	1	Force ritual
73,5	73,5	Effects Total Scenario 1
40,25	40,25	Effects Total Scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects Total Scenario 3
125	118	Total Base With Effects Scenario 1
91,75	84,75	Total Base With Effects Scenario 2
62	55	Total Base With Effects Scenario 3
		
		Glancing Blows
Yes		Barbarian Capstone
3		Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude Rank
0		Kensai Rank
0		Frenzied Berserker Rank
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 1
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 2
0	0	Base Damage Scenario 3
0	0	Vicious / Kotc / capstone / kotc set
0	0	Effects scenario 1
0	0	Effects scenario 2
0	0	Effects scenario 3
1		Number of targets hit by glancings
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 1
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 2
0	0	Average Damage Per Hit Scenario 3
		
		Critical Hits
8	8	Seeker from item
4	4	Critical threat range
3	3	Critical multiplier
154,5	133,5	Base critical damage scenario 1
103	89	Base critical damage scenario 2
51,5	44,5	Base critical damage scenario 3
73,5	73,5	Effects scenario 1
40,25	40,25	Effects scenario 2
10,5	10,5	Effects scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Burst scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Burst scenario 3
11	11	<Element> Blast scenario 1
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 2
0	0	<Element> Blast scenario 3
0	0	<Alignment> Burst
0	0	<Alignment> Blast
14	14	Natural 20 scenario 1
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 2
0	0	Natural 20 scenario 3
24	24	Total seeker damage scenario 1
12	12	Total seeker damage scenario 2
0	0	Total seeker damage scenario 3
288	267	Critical Total Scenario 1
155,25	141,25	Critical Total Scenario 2
62	55	Critical Total Scenario 3
152,05	142,6	Average Damage Scenario 1
99,86	91,81	Average Damage Scenario 2
58,9	52,25	Average Damage Scenario 3
		
		Relevant Attack Data
5	5	Minutes lapsed
Yes	Yes	Madstone
20	20	Base Attack Bonus
5	5	BAB Tier
0,62	0,62	Unarmed Duration
0,56	0,56	THF-Twitch Duration
0,67	0,67	Armed Duration
		Attack speed increases
6	6	Number of haste boosts
30	30	Haste boost amount
0	0	Competence (Acrobat)
0	0	Insight
0	0	Sacred
0,81	0,76	Duration Modifier, Unboosted
0,57	0,53	Duration Modifier, Boosted
0,67	0,67	Base Duration
1,19	1,24	Unboosted Rate Increase
1,55	1,62	Boosted Rate Increase
0,125	0,125	Offset
		Double strikes
0	0	Competence (Fighter Capstone)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Insight (Windstance)
0	0	Sacred (Zeal)
0	0	Chance to double strike
		Offhand proc
10	10	Competence (Tempest 1 / 2)
90	90	Chance to proc Offhand
		Smites
0	0	Extra Smite Rank
0	0	Number of Smites
0	0	Divine Sacrifice Interval
		
		Activations & Feats
No	No	Frenzy activation
No	No	Death Frenzy activation
No	No	Power Surge activation
No	No	Divine Might activation
GTWF	GTWF	TWF feat (TWF, ITWF, GTWF, STWF)
None	None	THF feat (THF, ITHF, GTHF)
Yes	Yes	Quick draw
		
0	0	Loss per minute due to activations
		
		Attackspeed
6		Number of haste boosts used
88,98		Normal
105,53		Haste/ Other
137,78		Haste/ Other/ Boost
583,87	525,49	Total Amount of Attacks
88777,95	74934,32	Total Damage Scenario 1
58307,06	48246,19	Total Damage Scenario 2
34390,14	27456,65	Total Damage Scenario 3
295,93	249,78	Damage/S Scenario 1
194,36	160,82	Damage/S Scenario 2
114,63	91,52	Damage/S Scenario 3
545,71		Damage Per Second Scenario 1
355,18		Damage Per Second Scenario 2
206,16		Damage Per Second Scenario 3
369,01		Average Damage Per Second

Pure rogue > Tempest rogue in DPS.

[Dragonhyde]

My tempest rogue gives me exactly what i built him for and the upcoming changes do not change the way I play him. He still does his job and that is all I care about